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Featured Genesis 1:26

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by Diaz3618, Feb 21, 2019.

  1. lostwanderingsoul

    lostwanderingsoul Well-Known Member

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    Sorry but I asked the question first.. When you answer then I may answer.
     
  2. Earthling

    Earthling David Henson

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    I answered your question. The Bible doesn't specifically state that Jesus was Michael, you have to get that on your own. By addressing the points I made in my post, which you most likely wouldn't have answered, won't answer, probably can't answer.
     
  3. lostwanderingsoul

    lostwanderingsoul Well-Known Member

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    No, the only deity is called God. This God consists of one known as the Heavenly Father and one known as the Word. The Father is talking to and giving instructions to the Word and the Word is doing the actual work of creating. My arguement is very clear but you seem intent on trying to say the Father and the Word are the same and giving different names to the Father that you can't follow the logic.
     
  4. lostwanderingsoul

    lostwanderingsoul Well-Known Member

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    OK seems fair.
    1. Yes, Jesus was a spirit before coming to earth. His name was the Word.
    2. No, Jesus was not created. Both the Word and the Father existed eternally.
    3. Jesus was not created and was not an angel
    4, Can't say who has authority over angels
    5. Don't know what Jesus voice is like.
    6. Don't know if there could be other archangels.
     
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  5. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    Impossible that Jesus is Michael for more than one reason.
    • Jesus is made little lower than the angels (Hebrews 2:7) That means He can't be an angel. He was human. So the only time Jesus was "made" --created-- was when He was born of a woman. (Hebrews 10:5)
    • He was made the only begotten Son of God which God never did for any angel. (Hebrews 1:5)
    • John says the Word--Jesus-- was in the beginning with God and that God made all things --which are made-- by the Word. (John 1:1-3, Colossians 1:16) That means the Word is not created; but on the contrary the Word makes all things that are created. Therefore, it's impossible for the Word itself to be created. Instead the Word is "in the beginning with God". Jesus is uncreated but angels are created beings. (Hebrews 1:7, Psalm 104:4)
    In conclusion, Jesus cannot be Michael the archangel and prince. Jesus is higher than Michael and created Michael along with all the angels.
     
  6. lostwanderingsoul

    lostwanderingsoul Well-Known Member

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    Thank you. You seem to have the answers. Whereas "Earthling" does not seem to have scripture to support his views.
     
  7. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    Yes, well thank you. It's obvious that when John says the Word was "in the beginning" he is saying the Word is uncreated and furthermore John goes on to say without Him was not anything made that was made. So it couldn't be more clear that the Word itself is not made but has eternal origins. The human body of Jesus was made (Hebrews 10:5) but that is all.
     
  8. lostwanderingsoul

    lostwanderingsoul Well-Known Member

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    I don't know why this is so difficult for some people to see. I guess they are just brainwashed into whatever ideas they have.
     
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  9. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    Because the identity of the Father and the Son are hidden and only revealed by God Himself to individuals.

    Matthew 11:25-28 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
    Then Jesus said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth. I am thankful that you have hidden these things from those who are so wise and so smart. But you have shown them to people who are like little children. Yes, Father, you did this because it’s what you really wanted to do. “My Father has given me everything. No one knows the Son—only the Father knows the Son. And no one knows the Father—only the Son knows the Father. And the only people who will know about the Father are those the Son chooses to tell.
     
  10. lostwanderingsoul

    lostwanderingsoul Well-Known Member

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    I really like your answer. I would only add that their identity is not only hidden but that Satan works hard to hide the truth from people. Even those who think they have all the answers.
     
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  11. Earthling

    Earthling David Henson

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    The Word wasn't his name, it was a descriptive title. It means that he was a spokesperson, or representative of his Father, Jehovah. John 12:50 And yes, Revelation 19:13, may, according to your translation, read "the name he is called is the Word, but that isn't literal." No one called him by the name Word. "Hey, Word . . ." they didn't say "What's up?"

    Colossians 1:15; Revelation 3:14; John 1:14; Philippians 2:7

    Jehovah, Michael and Jesus. Job 1:6; Revelation 12:7; 1 Thessalonians 4:16; 2 Thessalonians 1:7: Matthew 24:30, 31:

    1 Thessalonians 4:16

    Michael is named five times in the Bible; Daniel 10:13; Daniel 10:21; Daniel 12:1; Jude 1:9; Revelation 12:7; Arch as a prefix means "chief; principal" and the term archangel is never found in the plural. The only other angel mentioned by name is Gabriel.

    1. Jesus existed in heaven before he came to earth. Proverbs 8:22 / John 1:1,3, 14; 3:13; 8:23, 58; 17:5 / Colossians 1:15-17 / 1 John 2:13 / Revelation 3:14 all speak of Jesus’ existence before the world began, in fact before anything was created Jesus was created. Before Heaven, the heavens, the Earth, and of course, man. He is the firstborn of creation, the beginning of creation, he came from somewhere other than this world, he descended from heaven. There can be no doubt that he had a pre-human existence in heaven before he came to Earth as the man Jesus Christ.

    2. Jesus’ position in heaven before he came to the earth must have been an important one, considering he was the first of Jehovah’s creation and all things were created through him and for him. (Proverbs 8:22 / John 1:3) That means not only the heavens and earth as we know them but the angels and heaven as well. Jesus is referred to as the "word of God," this means he is the spokesperson. (John 1:1) As the spokesperson for Jehovah God we can assume that when an angel performed some important task on earth, like guiding and protecting the early Israelites from Egypt or taking the physical form of men in performing an important task, it was likely Michael as he existed before he came to earth as Jesus.

    3. The term archangel means chief of the angels. Arch means chief or principal. The term is only applied to one angel in the Bible. Michael. It is always used in the singular. There is only one archangel. The term archangel itself only appears twice throughout Scripture. At 1 Thessalonians 4:16 Paul writes of Jesus as having the voice of the archangel, and Jude 9 indicates Michael disputed with Satan over the body of Moses. So there is a connection with Jesus as well as an indication that Michael was connected in some way with the people of the exodus of Egypt.

    4. Other than Jehovah God himself only two people in the Bible are said to be in charge of or over the angels. They are Michael and Jesus Christ. The name Michael appears only five times throughout Scripture. At Daniel 10:13, 21; 12:1 / Jude 9 and Revelation 12:7.

    5. Are there any others who believe Michael and Jesus are the same? Yes, there are many. Joseph Benson, E. W. Hengstenberg, J. P. Lange, Butterworth, Cruden, Taylor, Guyse all wrote that Michael and Jesus were the same.

    Clarke's Commentary (Adam Clarke) - "Let it be observed that the word archangel is never found in the plural number in the sacred writings. There can be properly only one archangel, one chief or head of all the angelic host .... Michael is this archangel, and head of all the angelic orders .... hence by this personage, in the Apocalypse, many understand the Lord Jesus."

    W. E. Vine - the "voice of the archangel" (1 Thessalonians 4:16) is apparently "the voice of the Lord Jesus Christ" - An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, p. 64.
    The 1599 Geneva Study Bible: Christ is the Prince of angels and head of the Church, who bears that iron rod."

    The International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia: - "The earlier Protestant scholars usually identified Michael with the preincarnate Christ, finding support for their view, not only in the juxtaposition of the "child" and the archangel in Rev. 12, but also in the attributes ascribed to him in Daniel" – vol. 3, p. 2048, Eerdmans Publishing, 1984 printing.

    John Calvin: "I embrace the opinion of those who refer this to the person of Christ, because it suits the subject best to represent him as standing forward for the defense of his elect people." - J. Calvin, Commentaries On The Book Of The Prophet Daniel, trans. T. Myers (Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1979), vol. 2 p. 369.

    Brown's Dictionary of the Bible - on 'Michael' and 'Angel,' both these words do sometimes refer to Christ; and also affirms that Christ is the Archangel.

    The NIV Study Bible - "The Angel of the LORD .... Traditional Christian interpretation has held that this 'angel' was a preincarnate manifestation of Christ as God's Messenger-Servant. It may be ..., the angel could speak on behalf of the One who sent him." - footnote for Gen. 16:7. Zondervan Publishing, 1985

    Smith's Bible Dictionary (says of Michael) - "Angel of the Lord. ... Christ's visible form before the incarnation. p. 40"

    Today's Dictionary of the Bible - "Angel of the Lord [angel of Jehovah] - occurs many times in the Old Testament, where in almost every instance it means a supernatural personage to be distinguished from Jehovah .... Some feel the pre-incarnate Christ is meant." Bethany House Publ., 1982, p. 39.
     
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  12. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake ️️️️️️️️️️

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    You've got a problem, because in the book of John, Yohanan says that Jesus reveals an 'previously unknown' God.

    That can't mean any aspect of God, in the Old Testament, who was already known.

    Thusly it can only mean, Jesus, in Yisrael, as a manifested form.
     
  13. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    which verse?
     
  14. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake ️️️️️️️️️️

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    Unless Yohanan is wrong, and practicing a different religion, which I don't believe to be so.
     
  15. lostwanderingsoul

    lostwanderingsoul Well-Known Member

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    OK good start. We agree Jesus existed before anything else.That does not mean he was created. Do you believe your Jehovah was created?Why can't Jesus also be eternal? I do not see anything that says Micheal came to earth as Jesus.I see that the Word was made flesh.I Thes. 4:16 could mean an archangel will be with Jesus not that Jesus own voice is that of an archangel.It also mentions a trumpet. Is Jesus blowing the trumpet? Or could their be many other angels with him? You say only two people are in charge of angels, Michael and Jesus. So how is this saying they are the same? Two people means two, not one. The fact that many people believe something does not make it true. At one time many people thought the earth was flat.
     
  16. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    Jesus is literally the Word of God as it says Hebrews 1:2 by whom God made the worlds.

    And Psalm 33:6 The Lord spoke the command, and the world was made. The breath from his mouth created everything in the heavens.

    So God spoke all things into existence. This proves Jesus is the Word of creation.
    All these have to do with Jesus human incarnation. Colossians 1:15 "firstborn" so Jesus is the only born Son of God. Revelation 3:14 Jesus is the "Chief" or in other words "first" of the creation of God. As for Jesus humanity apparently; He was already slain before the foundation of the world ... (Revelation 13:8) This has to do with how all things are founded on the incarnation of Jesus Christ. He was before all things and by Him all things consist. The whole plan and purpose of God from the beginning rest on Jesus crucified and risen from the dead. (Hebrews 13:8)

    John 1:14 The Word was made flesh. Yes. There came a time in this reality when He became and did what He was already because He is the "same" yesterday today and forever.

    Philippians 2:7 The same. He took on the flesh. True. See Hebrews 10:5.
    None of that proves Jesus is Michael. Yes, the angels are the "Sons of God" but they are not born of God. They are created like Adam the "son of God". (Luke 3:38) No one is born of God except Jesus.

    Jesus on the other hand; is born of God in the womb (Luke 1:35) and from the dead. (Colossians 1:18, Psalm 2:7, Acts 13:33)

    This is why Jesus tells people they need to be "Born anew" in John 3:3-5. Here we learn the truth of God's plan that He will make us all new in Jesus Christ. For when you are truly born "anew" you are born into the very body of Jesus Christ. You're made members of His body. One with God.

    God's mercies are new every "morning". (Lamentations 3:23) Jesus is the Bright and morning Star. (Revelation 22:16) And we could go on and on with various scriptures like this.

    So no wonder God says to Jesus in Genesis 1:26 "Let us make man in our image" because God foreknew that man would sin and would fall from the image of God(Luke 3:38) and that Jesus would have to come to remake us again into the image of God. (Romans 8:29)

    For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. (Romans 8:29)

    So Genesis 1:26 should be paired with Romans 8:29 to be understood. 2 Corinthians 3:17-18 helps also.

    2 Corinthians 3:17-18 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
    17 The Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And our faces are not covered. We all show the Lord’s glory, and we are being changed to be like him. This change in us brings more and more glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.

    Jesus will descend with the voice of archangel. Yes. Angels are messengers. It's no surprise that Jesus has an archangel to voice His return to earth. It's even an angel that sounds the last trumpet. (1 Corinthians 15:52, Revelation 8:2, Revelation 8:6)
     
  17. Earthling

    Earthling David Henson

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    First of all we need to establish something. Angels are spirit creatures. They aren't flesh and blood. Flesh and bones can't be in heaven. (1 Corinthians 15:50) Angels, from time to time, changed from their spirit forms, which men can't see, to physical form in order to deal with men. (Genesis 6:2; 2 Peter 2:4)

    When God speaks to someone face to face in the Bible it means in a direct way. Rather than speaking through visions or dreams the person, such as Moses, deals directly with God's representative. Numbers 12:6-8 / Exodus 33:20 / Acts of the apostles 7:35, Acts of the apostles 7:38 / Galatians 3:19. Example: Men call the angels who speak for God “God” or “Jehovah” by name and yet other times the same person speaking as an angel or a man. Genesis 32:24-30 / Hosea 12:3, 4.

    The primary spokesperson for Jehovah is Jesus, but, Jesus was an angel in heaven before he came to Earth, and at that time, before and after, wasn't known as Jesus the man. So, it is likely that in many of the cases where an angel appeared to men it was Jesus' prehuman form, or spirit form taken a physical flesh and bones form.

    Jehovah wasn't created. He is the only one who existed at one time, then he created his son, Michael, who lowered himself to come to earth in human form and was also known, among other names or titles, Word, King, Prince, Messiah, etc.

    The verses I gave mentioning that he was the "firstborn" of creation, or the beginning of creation means he was created. God's son.

    It's isn't a crucial point to debate. For some reason many people just find it terribly difficult to believe even though scholars are pretty much in agreement. I have a list of them a mile long, some of which I gave in my post.
     
  18. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    Surely you know that "appeal to authority" is considered a logical fallacy sir? Scholars have different opinions just like we do. We could find scholars that agree with our side or various other views as well.
     
  19. Earthling

    Earthling David Henson

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    Jesus being made lower means that he changed from an angel to a man.

    Hebrews 1:5 merely says that Jesus was the only one who was in the position that Jesus was as Messiah. Born a man, having been a spirit. Approved for the purpose of Messiah. (Mark 1:11; Luke 9:35; 2 Peter 1:17)

    In the beginning of what? Before the creation of the universe and earth the angels existed. (Job 38:4-7) Jesus was the beginning of creation. Firstborn of creation. (Revelation 3:1; Proverbs 8:22; Colossians 1:15)

    Just above you said Jesus was a little lower than the angels. Michael was an angel.
     
  20. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    The serpent in the garden wants people to think that God is a liar.

    Jesus is the God of the old Testament. They did not in fact know God; they just thought they did. But had they known God then they would have obeyed the Torah. Jesus said they did not believe Moses (John 5:46-47)

    Jesus is the God of the old Testament as we know He said "Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord God, and his Spirit, hath sent me."

    And further we know that God said about people who think they know the scriptures of the old Testament:

    But the word of the Lord was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken. (Isaiah 28:13)

    So who do you think knew God? You surely can't be serious if you claim anyone knew God!

    God looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God. Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

    Help, Lord; for the godly man ceaseth; for the faithful fail from among the children of men.

    Yea, truth faileth; and he that departeth from evil maketh himself a prey: and the Lord saw it, and it displeased him that there was no judgment. And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor: therefore his arm brought salvation unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained him.​
     
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