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Featured Genesis 1:26

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by Diaz3618, Feb 21, 2019.

  1. Twilight Hue

    Twilight Hue Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.

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    So where did Mom go?
     
  2. Thief

    Thief Rogue Theologian

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    I believe Someone had to be First
    and that same Person held the power of creation

    Spirit first
    substance following
     
  3. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    The son of God, according to scripture can do nothing of his own initiative, (John 5:19) so when he was by his Father's side in the creation of all things, it was accomplished under the supervision of his God and Father.

    Colossians 1:15-17 says of Jesus....
    "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. 17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.".

    Here we see that the son is acting as the agency "through" whom creation came. The son is not the Creator, but the construction crew, All the raw materials for the material universe where created by God, but the son fabricated those materials into all that we see. God alone is the supreme architect of all things. In any major construction project even among men, the architect gets the credit more so than the construction company who just follow his plans and instructions.

    That is how I would answer your question.
     
  4. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    From the context, I understand Jehovah to be building confidence in Israel, that he is their deliverer. From verse one right through to the last verse, we see this. Hence there seem no reason for Jehovah to give details about his son's share.
    It was Jehovah's spirit, by which the work was done - his spirit, and no one else's.
    That's how I see it.
     
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  5. TrueBeliever37

    TrueBeliever37 Well-Known Member

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    It doesn't say what you are saying. Isaiah 44:24 says YHWH created all things, and it says alone and by himself. The reason the NT says those things is because the Messiah was YHWH dwelling in a fleshly body. YHWH took on a fleshly body. It wasn't a second person in the Godhead.
     
    #205 TrueBeliever37, Jun 9, 2019
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  6. TrueBeliever37

    TrueBeliever37 Well-Known Member

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    Isaiah 44:24 says YHWH created all things, and it says he was alone, and by himself.
     
  7. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    He did create all things, and he did so alone and by himself... in the context of the verses in Isaiah 44. Did you get the context, as I pointed out?

    In the scriptures, we find verses which say something, and which we can understand in the context. It does not mean other parts are wrong, or that we must now assume that we can stretch it to fit a belief.

    For example, when Thomas said, 'My Lord and my God", do we assume that fits our view, or do we keep the context in mind, and make sure that we keep in harmony with the scriptures? See John 20
     
  8. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    There is no "godhead" in the Bible. There is no trinity in the Bible.....not once did Jesus ever claim to be God.
    The Jews do not believe that God is a triune being and never did. Jesus never taught it because he was Jewish.

    Muslims are also Abrahamic and they reject the trinity too. Only the "Christian" church believes in a triune godhead.
    And it took them over 300 years to make it a doctrine. It masks the true identity of the one Jesus said was "the only true God" and that we must all get to know him. (John 17:3) He speaks of himself as a separate entity.

    The Apostles were not in any doubt as to who God was...and who Jesus was.

    1 Corinthians 8:5-6 NASB...
    "For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, 6, yet for us there is but one God, the Father from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him."

    God is the Father....Jesus is their Lord. Notice that Paul says that our existence is not "by" Jesus but "through" him. "God the Father" is the one "from whom are all things". Again this emphasizes that the pre-human Jesus was the agency for creation...he is NOT the Creator. ...the Father is.
     
  9. TrueBeliever37

    TrueBeliever37 Well-Known Member

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    The context here is that Thomas called him God. And there is only one God. Just like Isaiah 9:6 prophesied - that the son to be born would be called the mighty God, and the everlasting Father.
     
    #209 TrueBeliever37, Jun 10, 2019
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  10. TrueBeliever37

    TrueBeliever37 Well-Known Member

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    Hi Deeje,
    Did you even read my post? I said nothing about a trinity. I don't believe in the trinity. I said something totally different than that, so I have no idea why you even mention the trinity.

    I am saying the Messiah was God. It was YHWH dwelling in a fleshly body he made to sacrifice for the sins of man. After he was resurrected, if he wasn't God, why did he say "I have all power in heaven and in earth"? If you are the Almighty - you are God. (Isaiah 9:6 said the son to be born would be called the mighty God and the everlasting Father.)

    The reason people are so confused, is they don't recognize the distinction between the flesh and the Spirit. The Father is the only God, and is a Spirit. Because he didn't have blood, he made a fleshly body to dwell in and sacrifice for man's sin. He called that fleshly body the Son. The Messiah said I and my Father are one. The holy Spirit of God was dwelling in that fleshly body, so he was both Father and Son. That is also why when he was asked to show them the Father, he said "He that hath seen me hath seen the Father".

    The Father (the Spirit) was dwelling in the fleshly body (the Son). But it wasn't two separate persons. The flesh was weak and would cry out (pray) to the Spirit for strength, just like we have to do.
     
    #210 TrueBeliever37, Jun 10, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2019
  11. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Please sir. That is not context.
    noun
    1. the circumstances that form the setting for an event, statement, or idea, and in terms of which it can be fully understood and assessed.
      "the decision was taken within the context of planned cuts in spending"
      synonyms: circumstances, conditions, surroundings, factors, state of affairs; More
      • the parts of something written or spoken that immediately precede and follow a word or passage and clarify its meaning.
        "word processing is affected by the context in which words appear"
    The context shows that Thomas knew Jesus and God the father were not one and the same.
    Since there is one God, who is Jesus' God, if Jesus is that one God?
    John 20:17 "Do not cling to Me," Jesus said, "for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go and tell My brothers, 'I am ascending to My Father and your Father, to My God and your God.'"
     
  12. TrueBeliever37

    TrueBeliever37 Well-Known Member

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    How are you using proper context in what you are saying when Thomas wasn't even the one he was talking to when he said that? It was over a week later, and the circumstances were that Thomas wasn't going to believe unless he saw things for himself. When he saw for himself the Messiah was resurrected, he called him his God.

    That one God is the Spirit dwelling in the Messiah. Colossians 2:9 - For in him dwells the fullness of the Godhead bodily. Of course the Spirit of God isn't totally contained in a physical body, since God's Spirit fills the heaven and earth.

    1. How did YHWH create all things alone and by himself if they were created as Colossians 1:15-17 says? (Genesis 1:1 says that in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.)

    2. If the Messiah wasn't God manifest in the flesh, then when was God manifest in the flesh as 1 Timothy 3:16 says he was?

    3. Why when asked to show them the Father ( John 14:8-9 ), did the Messiah say "Have I been so long time with you and yet hast thou not known me, he that hath seen me hath seen the Father, and how sayest thou show us the Father?

    4. How could the Messiah say "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up"? We know from other scriptures that it was God that raised the body from the dead. So how could he say he would raise it up?

    5. Why did Isaiah 9:6 say the son to be born would be called the mighty God, and the everlasting Father?

    6. In Isaiah 40:3 it says the voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, prepare ye the way of YHWH, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
    Matthew 3:1-3 - When you get to the NT, that voice turns out to be John the baptist. So I ask you, who did John prepare the way for? Who showed up?
    John was supposed to be preparing the way for YHWH. Isn't that what he did?

    Micah 1:3-5 says YHWH would come down and tread upon the high places of the earth. What are the high places of Judah? are they not Jerusalem?
     
    #212 TrueBeliever37, Jun 10, 2019
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  13. TrueBeliever37

    TrueBeliever37 Well-Known Member

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    My point is per Isaiah 44:24 - YHWH made all things. He said he was alone when he stretched forth the heavens, and by himself when he spread abroad the earth. And Genesis 1:1 lets us know God created the heavens and the earth.

    Then you get to the NT, and it lets us know in verses such as Colossians 1:14-17 that the Messiah was the image of the invisible God, and that he created all things. (So unless the Messiah was YHWH dwelling in a fleshly body, you have a definite conflict between scriptures as to who created things.)

    You have all kinds of things like this. Another one for example: Isaiah 44:6 - YHWH said I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. Then you get to the NT, and I ask you who in Revelation 1:17-18 is saying I am the first and the last? Isn't he essentially saying he is God here?
     
    #213 TrueBeliever37, Jun 12, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2019
  14. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    That's not really a question. These names follow the common naming convention in which the name of the person says something about G-d, albeit slightly more poetic as prophecies tend to be. You can find other names like these in Tanach. I don't see why, eg. Abi-Ad can only refer to G-d, but Abi-Hail, Abi-Shur, Ab-Shalom, etc are obviously the names of people.

    It also says that as a result of G-d treading on the high places, the mountains will melt and the rivers split. So this has either not happened yet, or it's metaphorical. Contextually, considering it's speaking about the sins of Judah, it probably refers to the pillaging of the Judean kingdom after the destruction of the First Temple.
     
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  15. TrueBeliever37

    TrueBeliever37 Well-Known Member

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    Hi Tumah,

    Of course there are names of people. But in this case, it was about a particular son. Tell me what the name would be for the one called all these things. What name would mean wonderful counselor, mighty God, everlasting Father, prince of peace?

    I believe that would be metaphorical.
     
    #215 TrueBeliever37, Jun 12, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2019
  16. Thief

    Thief Rogue Theologian

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    yep....different pieces of the puzzle from different script

    kinda like looking into a gemstone trying to spot any flaws

    several lines of sight
    one stone

    you could easily lose sight of what you seek
    even as you hold it in your hand

    so to speak
     
  17. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    I'm not sure if you misunderstood me or if I'm misunderstanding you.
    I didn't mean to say that there's one name that includes all these things. These are various names that speak about various qualities of G-d. Many if not most Biblical names are like this, expressing qualities of G-d. They didn't randomly pick names, these are names that express the hopes or expectations of the one naming.

    Solomon for instance, was called Solomon (peace) by his father, Jedidiah (friend of G-d) by Nathan the Prophet and he called himself Koheleth (one who gathers [wisdom]). Jewish sources also relate another three names to him.

    In the verse from Isaiah 9:5, because there was peace in the Judean kingdom - especially during those trying times - his reign expressed these qualities. The prophet is simply doing the same thing Nathan did.
     
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  18. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Proper context has everything to do with using the verse(s) in harmony with the surrounding text(s).
    It is not useless because of the length of time.
    One can even use an entire book as the context... where the previous chapter(s) help one to understand a verse, or a number of verses.
    For example, Isaiah 14:8-20...
    We go all the way back to Chapter 13 of Isaiah, to get a correct understanding, and application of the verses.


    That one God is the spirit dwelling in the Messiah?
    I don't understand that? That does not scripturally answer the question, and I can make any connection of it with the question.
    Can you give an answer that doesn't require me trying to get in your mind, but rather an answer I can look in the Bible, and understand?

    Recall that you are making the argument that there is only one God - meaning (if I understand you correctly) that Jesus is God, and the father is God, and must be the same, because they can't be two Gods.

    Yet the scriptures say that the father is Jesus' God.
    Jesus himself said that He also said, the father is the only true God.
    He also said many other things like this.
    For just as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted also to the Son to have life in himself. And he has given him authority to do judging, because he is the Son of man.
    I cannot do a single thing of my own initiative. Just as I hear, I judge, and my judgment is righteous because I seek, not my own will, but the will of him who sent me. (John 5:26-30)


    So my question is, if Jesus is the one and only true God, how could he claim that the father is his God, the one and only true God?
    You do understand what it means to have a God, don't you?

    Telling me the above, is no help to your argument.
    God's spirit also dwells in his followers. It does not make them God.
    Jesus even prayed that they be in them - the father and son.
    John 17:21
    That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.



    This was answered. Remember?
     
  19. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    This can be used as an example, to shoe why context is important.
    Who was made manifest in the flesh? Verse 13, and 15

    It is no surprise to me that KJV, as well as a minority of other translations, inserted God in verse 15, but that is not correct.
    1 Timothy 3:16 By common confession, the mystery of godliness is great: He appeared in the flesh, was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was proclaimed among the nations, was believed in throughout the world, was taken up in glory.

    Those few other translations that follow the KJV are obvious Trinitarian supporters, as is clear from the fact the keep that spurious rendering of 1 John 5:7.
    1 John 5:7 For there are three that testify:

    1 Timothy 3:16, obviously refers to Jesus, although the Greek word does not specify who, which, what, that (hos, hé, ho).
    The context helps us appreciate that.



    Didn't Jesus answer that?
    You can find his answer in the verses that follow - from verses 9-14, and beyond.

    Also, does the question itself not show that the disciples understood that Jesus was not the father, but could help them understand the father?
    They knew. Jesus was not the father, because he never taught them that he was.
    Matthew 16:15-17
    15 He saith unto them, But who say ye that I am? 16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jonah: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father who is in heaven.

    Also, Jesus is described as, the exact representation of God.
    Hebrews 1:3; Colossians 1:15


    John 10:17, 18
    17 Therefore doth the Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I may take it again.
    18 No one taketh it away from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment received I from my Father.

    May I make a suggestion.
    I find reading a modern translation allow for so much of a better grasp, of what is being said. For example NWT reads...
    John 10:17, 18

    17This is why the Father loves me, because I surrender my life, so that I may receive it again. 18No man takes it away from me, but I surrender it of my own initiative. I have authority to surrender it, and I have authority to receive it again. This commandment I received from my Father.

    Strong's Greek: 2983. λαμβάνω (lambanó) -- to take, receive
    Strong's Concordance
    lambanó: to take, receive
    Original Word: λαμβάνω
    Usage: (a) I receive, get, (b) I take, lay hold of.

    HELPS Word-studies
    2983
    lambánō (from the primitive root, lab-, meaning "actively lay hold of to take or receive," see NAS dictionary) – properly, to lay hold by aggressively (actively) accepting what is available (offered). 2983 /lambánō ("accept with initiative") emphasizes the volition (assertiveness) of the receiver.

    See Acts 2:24-28
    24 But God resurrected him by releasing him from the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to be held fast by it. 25 For David says about him: ‘I keep Jehovah constantly in front of me, for he is at my right hand that I may never be shaken. 26 On this account my heart became cheerful and my tongue rejoiced greatly. And I will reside in hope; 27 because you will not leave me in the Grave, nor will you allow your loyal one to see corruption. 28 You have made life’s ways known to me; you will fill me with great joy in your presence.’

    The scriptures evidently are quite clear.
    When we look at them though, with the intention of stretching them to cover / support a teaching that is not scriptural, we can end up complicating what is not very complicated at all.


    What do you understand God to mean?
    What do you understand father to mean?
    Are they not titles?
    Can Jesus not be both, and yet not be part of a Trinity?
    Jesus is indeed a mighty God - not the Almighty, and he is indeed an everlasting father, as he is the one who brought children to God. He redeemed mankind from sin and death, becoming their father in place of Adam. 1 Corinthians 15
    Would Adam not have been an everlasting father, if he never died? Surely he would have.

    God can be applied to others whom that title fits, just as Father is applied to those whom the title fits.



    Jehovah's representative showed up. Malachi 3:1
    “Look! I am sending my messenger, and he will clear up a way before me. And suddenly the true Lord, whom you are seeking, will come to his temple; and the messenger of the covenant will come, in whom you take delight. Look! He will certainly come,” says Jehovah of armies. . .

    Matthew 11:10 This is the one about whom it is written: ‘Look! I am sending my messenger ahead of you, who will prepare your way ahead of you!

    Mark 1:2, 3
    2 Just as it is written in Isaiah the prophet: “(Look! I am sending my messenger ahead of you, who will prepare your way.) 3 A voice of one crying out in the wilderness: ‘Prepare the way of Jehovah! Make his roads straight.’”

    John 3:28 You yourselves bear me witness that I said, ‘I am not the Christ, but I have been sent ahead of that one.’

    John 14:6, 7

    6 Jesus said to him: “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you men had known me, you would have known my Father also; from this moment on you know him and have seen him.”

    When we take the scriptures into consideration, we get a clear picture. I don't find it complicated.



    I'm not sure what your question is here, but Jehovah does not need to leave heaven, to go anywhere. He gives attention from his place, and he acts.

    These were a lot of questions.
    I had other plans when I logged on, but they took all my time, so I hope you would take the time to properly answer my earlier question.[/quote][/quote]
     
  20. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    You have to be careful with Isaiah and Daniel..

    Isaiah 14:8-20 is about Cyrus and the end of the Babylonian exile.
     
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