Gender vs Sex ... What's The Difference

[Valjean]

Sex is physical, gender is mental/perceptual

Yes -- This is how the terms are currently evolving.

 

[Valjean]

Seems to me it would be MUCH easier if new words were brought about instead of hijacking old ones.

for example
For the vast majority of my life this was called the pound sign "#".
now it is called a hash tag.
So for me, and I have found for a lot of us old people, #metoo read as "pound me too", not "hashtag me too".

I can sympathize.
My personal bugbear is "chauvinism," which originally meant extreme patriotism or jingoism. In the '60s, though, feminists began drawing a parallel between patriotic chauvinism and "male" chauvinism. At some point linguistic slackers dropped the "male," so that today I've actually met people who think chauvinism means extreme machismo.

 

[McBell]

It's anyone who breaks the binary gender rules.

Ah.
That makes more sense.

I was thinking non-binary in the sex area.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Yeah, it looks like the next scheduled show down in this hub-bub is binary vs non-binary. Since the non-binary seem to be the ones who are more marginalized (even by the binary with gender dysphoria,) I'll probably lend my support to the non-binary camp.

How so? I'm a transsexual man and transsexuals do have valid issues with the non-binary activist wing. The best solution as I see it is to separate the two since we don't have much in common and have different needs. As I see it, "non-binary" is really just a politically oriented label for those who just want to deconstruct gender, much like "queer" is a subversive politically charged label. (No, that wouldn't apply to all who identify as such but likely to most and definitely to the activists.) The "transgender" umbrella has become a crowded, muddled mess.

 

[crossfire]

How so?

I'm all for deconstructing stereotypes.

I'm a transsexual man and transsexuals do have valid issues with the non-binary activist wing. The best solution as I see it is to separate the two since we don't have much in common and have different needs. As I see it, "non-binary" is really just a politically oriented label for those who just want to deconstruct gender, much like "queer" is a subversive politically charged label. (No, that wouldn't apply to all who identify as such but likely to most and definitely to the activists.) The "transgender" umbrella has become a crowded, muddled mess.

What's wrong with deconstructing gender stereotypes? Why shouldn't everyone be allowed to wear pink?

 

[crossfire]

I'm not interested in working to reinforce/uphold/glamorize gender stereotypes, but then I'm scorned as being "a lazy girl." So, If I'm going to be scorned for not glamorizing the stereotype, I might as well be scorned for deconstructing the damned stereotype.

Your mileage may vary.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I'm all for deconstructing stereotypes.

What's wrong with deconstructing gender stereotypes? Why shouldn't everyone be allowed to wear pink?

Nothing. The problem is conflating gender expression with identity. The non-binary types seem to think that liking pink makes you something other than a man or that not wanting to be Barbie means you're not a woman.

It's gotten to the point where I see trans men, for instance, being told that we should have no problem feeling comfortable wearing dresses, heels, having long hair and wearing makeup.

 

[crossfire]

Nothing. The problem is conflating gender expression with identity. The non-binary types seem to think that liking pink makes you something other than a man or that not wanting to be Barbie means you're not a woman.

Interesting. I would ascribe this to strong binary types.

It's gotten to the point where I see trans men, for instance, being told that we should have no problem feeling comfortable wearing dresses, heels, having long hair and wearing makeup.

Why in the hell would you want to wear dresses and makeup?

 

[Estro Felino]

I think talking about appearance or looks is misleading.
Nowadays men and women wear exactly the same clothes
...a pair of jeans and a sweater, and they're ready to go to work.
Unisex clothing is so fashionable.

So I think that it is what's in our underpants that makes the difference

 

[crossfire]

I think talking about appearance or looks is misleading.
Nowadays men and women wear exactly the same clothes
...a pair of jeans and a sweater, and they're ready to go to work.
Unisex clothing is so fashionable.

So I think that it is what's in our underpants that makes the difference

I could also see wanting to break a unisex stereotype as viable.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Nothing. The problem is conflating gender expression with identity. The non-binary types seem to think that liking pink makes you something other than a man or that not wanting to be Barbie means you're not a woman.

It's gotten to the point where I see trans men, for instance, being told that we should have no problem feeling comfortable wearing dresses, heels, having long hair and wearing makeup.

I have a trans woman friend who still calls herself a tom boy. She felt like the gender expression expectations were taxingly performative, and just wanted to wear cargo pants and short hair. But the resistance she got was from other trans women and even cis women who felt like she wasn't trying hard enough to pass or taking the female aesthetic seriously enough. To me, a cis female with a hormone disorder that makes me even less feminine, and no real interest in dresses and makeup, that sucks. It sucks we feel like gender expression has to equal a certain style of dress.

My friend ended up spending a long time in dresses almost as a compensation for those expectations, that gradually wore off with time as she grew more comfortable just being herself. I imagine plenty of non-binary go through something similar, where personal and societal expectation both from cis and trans society makes them feel like they have to be completely bereft of anything with gender typing, almost until they look completely androgynous, or go the exact opposite and have dresses and glitterbeards both. But I don't see why being a trans man who likes dresses can't wear them if that's what they're comfortable with, or a trans woman with short hair. Or non-binary with either or neither.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Interesting. I would ascribe this to strong binary types.


Why in the hell would you want to wear dresses and makeup?

I don't want to wear dresses and makeup but some people think that's something that trans men should feel comfortable doing, although it would be traumatic for most of us.

Basically, I don't care what people like or want to wear. I just think that the non-binary people, genderfluid, etc. are basically their own category and I don't feel that I have much in common with them as a female to male transsexual. I also don't see why they want the "trans" label so badly, either, especially since most of them never really transition.

 

[crossfire]

I don't want to wear dresses and makeup but some people think that's something that trans men should feel comfortable doing, although it would be traumatic for most of us.

Then don't wear dresses. If anyone tries to force you into wearing dresses, I'll will stand up for you.

Basically, I don't care what people like or want to wear. I just think that the non-binary people, genderfluid, etc. are basically their own category and I don't feel that I have much in common with them as a female to male transsexual. I also don't see why they want the "trans" label so badly, either, especially since most of them never really transition.

Oh, I agree that there is a difference between transsexual and non-binary. Transsexual is more often binary than not.
Here's my understanding--please correct me if I'm wrong:

A good portion of non-binary are not transsexual, although some might be. Some might be transgender, some may not. "Trans" implies binary--transitioning from one to the other. Transsexual is making a permanent move from one fixed binary to the other fixed binary. Genderfluid is unfixed--it is fluid and subject to change without a goal of one binary or the other--non-binary. Agender is another expression of non-binary. I don't think the "trans" label would fit there, either.