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Gender Map

Discussion in 'Psychology' started by Israel Khan, Feb 17, 2021.

  1. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Well-Known Member

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    You seem to be confusing gender with sex.

    Sex is based on your genitals.

    Gender is all the added baggage socially added to sex. So the basic example is that boys like blue and girls like pink. Or men wear trousers and women wear dresses.

    Sex has to do with genetics absolutely. Genetics can inform certain behaviours of a person but is not really related to genetics.
     
  2. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    Wouldn't gender be deeper than that?

    I don't care for dresses but I'm female (rather) both gender and sex. You have some men find it comfortable to wear women's undergarments because women's fabric is different then mens, but they'd consider themselves men regardless the clothing. I'd say a doctor wouldn't diagnose someone with dysphoria if that person was uncomfortable with the gender expression they are told to live despite identifying with both their sex and gender.
     
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  3. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, it is super confusing. I still don't fully understand the meaning of the word gender as that word ironically seems to be fluid in meaning. Gender is like the word theory. The same word is used differently by laymen and those in a specific field, which is just bad communication. I think they should have used a word other than gender to describe the concept.

    The way I naturally understand the three categories is:

    Sex = whether your body is male, female or intersex in any species

    Gender = Man refers to a male human and woman refers to a female human. I don't think there is an intersex gender term in everyday language. Or maybe I am forgetting it.

    Gender Roles = What it means to be a man, women or intersex in a society. This addresses gender expression and culture.

    I suspect that proponents of the gender issue might be conflating gender roles and gender except when it comes to gender dysphoria. But I have also heard that there is a gender spectrum which I do not know much about.
     
  4. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Well-Known Member

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    This makes a lot of sense. The male mentality remained the same, favoring colours that symbolise war, but the colour that symbolised war changed. So there is an underlying principle there in the male psyche. But then again, there might be men who do not like war and would rather favour the non warlike colour.

    I think that the whole issue in todays world is concerned with helping outliers to be socially accepted, because even though they aren't the majority, they are suffering because of the gender role issue. I agree.

    I agree here. Also the man with feminine traits might not be seen as a true man by others, but that is because of societies preconceptions.
     
  5. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Well-Known Member

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    So today, women have crossed the gender line and can pretty much wear anything without getting judged. The man who wears lingerie though might see himself as a man but others in society might see him as an "abomination". Maybe man and woman are the only identification words he knows. If he creates another term for how he sees himself because he doesn't see himself as male or female, stepping into both sides, could he then use that?

    I also think that a doctor takes into account a persons comfort level when it comes to determine whether they have gender dysphoria or not but I don't know enough to think that I know what actually happens.
     
  6. Estro Felino

    Estro Felino Believer in free will
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    Well... I really don't know.
    I just think that women here want men to be romantic, caring...but dominant at the same time.
    So...I guess it is that...:p
     
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  7. Earthtank

    Earthtank Active Member

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    Gender map : Man and Woman

    Done
     
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  8. SomeRandom

    SomeRandom Still learning to be wise
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    True enough. But for a long time women were subjected at home. Bought or sold by their own father in dehumanising transactions. No doubt many men were shaped by their mothers. Or even by the abuse inflicted upon their own mother by their father. Though as happens many were also taught by that same abuse to dehumanise women, only using them as sex objects.

    As a society we like to think ourselves beyond such behaviour. In many respects we are, but it still occurs.
     
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  9. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Well-Known Member

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    I know many women who want to dominate men XD
     
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  10. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Well-Known Member

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    You are forgetting what is inbetween.

    And you are grossly oversimplifying the issue which is more nuanced. Try again.
     
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  11. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Well-Known Member

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    Agreed. You are revealing the nuance of the situation which is the point I am making.

    The only difference between humans of today and the humans of yesteryear is when it comes to how we treat each other are how we sugarcoat the issues.
     
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  12. Earthtank

    Earthtank Active Member

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    There really isn't anything in between. Its either man or woman, no other option, at least not in reality.
     
  13. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Well-Known Member

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    Then explain the argument from the perspective of those presenting the argument. If you don't understand their argument then you shouldn't make such a black and white statement.

    There are people who are hermaphrodites. That is already an objective inbetween.

    And as the map shows, historically there are cultures that already have genders other than man and woman in their culture and language, showing that just having two genders is an arbitrary limit on the definitions.
     
    #33 Israel Khan, Feb 19, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2021
  14. Earthtank

    Earthtank Active Member

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    yeah like 0.02% of people. When we speak of gender we don't use the 0.02% and act like that's the norm.
     
  15. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Well-Known Member

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    Nobody said that it is the norm. It is irrelevent to the point. The fact that they exist is what is relevent.
     
  16. Kooky

    Kooky Freedom from Sanity

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    I may not be as worldly as you for all I know, but based on my limited samples I would argue that different people, man and woman, tend to often want different things. Sometimes, the same person may even want different things, depending on their mood, state of mind, or situation in life. For this reason, I tend to be careful not to overgeneralize, although like anybody, I do occasionally lapse into that sort of intellectual laziness when I'm not watching myself.
     
  17. Kooky

    Kooky Freedom from Sanity

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    I personally doubt we can so neatly map highly irregular phenomena like sexual attraction so neatly to wide-ranging, complex and highly varied social systems such as patriarchy.

    For one, you're missing a big chunk of people who are not attracted to the opposite sex here, yet still live under the rules of patriachial society. How is a lesbian to gain power through her sexuality? Why would gay men be driven by dominance to the same degree when they are not attracted to women?
    And that's just the neat categories we're using here, ignoring even more complex issues such as the spectrum of bisexuality, asexuality, pansexuality, and the question of gender roles and gender identity, which again do not map so neatly to biological attraction or even biological sex.
     
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  18. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Well-Known Member

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    Isn't sexual attraction different to the gender issue?

    My point, which could very well be wrong, is that the majority of people in certain societies were heterosexual and thus the interplay between the sexes was what I mentioned, which shaped the idea of gender in these societies.

    I know that there were a good amount of bisexual people in history. I do not know whether other complex sexual orientations actually existed in the past or are a recent development. But the ideas of the majority would shape society, not the minority.

    The very idea of a patriarchy means that people of the past were viewing the world through a limited lense, that men had to be a certain way, and this would mean that the majority at least would have subscribed to the point that I was making.
     
  19. Kooky

    Kooky Freedom from Sanity

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    I've heard/read accounts of transgender people who found their sexual preferences change as they biologically transitioned to their gender of choice, so I'm guessing the answer depends on the individual, and is probably also very complicated, given the complex nature of sexual attraction.

    "Heterosexual" is a very modern category that does not so neatly apply to ancient societies and their norms. The ancient Greeks and Romans, for example, did not consider male-on-male sex to be the hallmark of a different kind of sexuality than the norm, and in fact did not seem to recognise.

    Our sexual norms and even our fundamental understanding of sexuality and sexual attraction arguably differs from these societies,and a not insignificant amount of historians tend to avoid projecting our modern categories of sexuality onto ancient peoples for that very reason.

    Again, we are talking in part about societies whose norms and understanding concerning sexuality, sexual attraction, and sexual mores were substantially different from our own.

    As far as I can tell, your point is that heterosexual women determine male gender norms, correct?

    I don't see why that's necessarily the case, given the outsized influence on social, cultural and political norms that (a minority of) men have wielded throughout history in most human societies.
     
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  20. The Hammer

    The Hammer White Wolf - kvite ulfh
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    My intersex spouse begs to differ.
     
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