Gay Bashing

[thomas t]

ok, now comes the Jehova Witnesses side...

Is that what you mean by bashing, so that saying the same about homosexuality, is gay bashing?

as @ADigitalArtist just said, your comparison is bashing gays, already (@Unveiled Artist, here I tend to believe ADA is right) . So I won't anser this.

but one thing is sure: saying they are perverts is nothing but bashing them. This is something Christians should not do...

He is just tolerating the person's choice, but he has already judged their lifestyle by his belief.

actually I didn't, I'm genuinely neutral here. I'm not interested in knowing how God will judge LGBT+ persons, it doesn't affect me.

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

I've actually suffered so much from anti-homosexuality that I generally have problems with religious forums .....

Imagine an online community being ran by an influential evangelical at the head. This evangelical upon outer appearance "seems" to have a busy life and portrays himself as such, but in reality, likes to pick targets and single them out with preaching, even attempting to do a sort of conversion therapy on them.

I became the target of a sort of "conversion therapy". The only solution could have been to leave the online community, as this "Christian" person wouldn't let me opt out.

I finally managed to voice things to the extent that I didn't want to be a part of this conversion therapy any more. As a result, not only was I banned from the community, but some of the people closest to me were too. It was thought they could be negative influences on me that "caused" me to go against this conversion therapy. So they were banned too.

 

[nPeace]

No. I'ma break it down in numbered but its not meant to be defensive or anything just for clarification.

1. Homosexuality means sexual orientation. It refers to the sex a person is attracted to, nothing more.

2. Since sexual orientation (or the sex to whom a person's attraction is oriented) is only an attraction (physiological, psychological, spiritual, and so forth) is not an action (sex) nor a lust, it is not a sin.

3. Unfortunately, christians (the vast majority of them) see homosexuality in the bible as an action and determine those who say they are homosexual are a. people who have same-sex sex or b. those who lust for it (above)

4. It's wrong, of course, for a christian to be mean to a homosexual and judge him for who he is as a person. It is also wrong to judge that homosexual to determine who he is in relationship with same sex sex. So, that in itself is judgement.

5. It's alright to have opinions about same-sex sex, but not alright to stereotype homosexuals who christians "think" because they call themselves so, that's what they do.

The answer to your question,

You are saying that the beliefs of Christians, that homosexuality is wrong is a judgment in itself, which is the Christian's view, regardless if he says it or not. He is just tolerating the person's choice, but he has already judged their lifestyle by his belief. Did I understand you correctly?

It is wrong in that christians apply their definition of homosexuality (SSS) onto homosexuals not their opinions about same-sex sex (which isn't homosexuality).

The problem is that some christians relay this stereotype in their character (how they raise a child, for example), their behavior (beating up a person or kicking a person out of their church), or speech (saying homosexuals are SSS sinners). These are not acts of love but of judgement.

So, yes, their belief does harm homosexuals insofar that it is expressed through their character, behavior, and speech. It would be nice for a christian homosexual to be welcomed in their church as a christian and treated as such "while" the members knowing that they are homosexual. As Thomas said, sometimes that's not the case. Christians look down at homosexuals once they realize their peer is homosexuals-and this is seen through their character not just or only their speech and behavior.

Sorry, it's long. Hope this is clearer?

I understand... I think. Unless you disagree with what I said.
Okay, so here is a scenario.
A male has attraction to other males, rather than females.
A. Does this male think that it is okay to have these feelings?
B. Does this male want to have sexual intercourse with other males?
C. Does this male promote this as a good thing for others to do?
D. All the above.

Let's start here.

 

[thomas t]

So now the gay bashing starts.

What about the scriptures that directly tells us avoid the company of wrong-doers, and guard our associations?
[...] Bad associations
[...] deceitful men, [...] those who hide what they are. [...] evil men, [...] the wicked.
[...] dissenters. . .
[...] one who loves to gossip.

[...] the deceitful, the wicked, the dissenter, the gossiper,
[...] the stupid

horrible.
LGBT+ in general are none of this, I think. God created them.

Was he not judging them,

he was judging people that attacked him. Homosexuals in general don't attack.
So you can't compare and Matthew 7 still stands ("judge not").

I do not adulterate God's word. I do not water down sciptures.

"No one tells me how to dress. This is my life. I dress how I want."

Within reasonable limits that apply to all... no one should tell others how to dress outside government buildings, I think.

 

[nPeace]

Sorry. Interjecting. Gay bashing refers to how people put down gay people for being gay (for being, to the basher, someone who has same-sex sex). It can be in the form of verbal abuse. It can manifest itself in physical abuse. It could be as simple as "You are a sinner 'because' you are gay."

I don't mind you interjecting, at all.
Please feel free to do so... always. I appreciate hearing you, and want to hear from you.

So say I am discussing the Bible with someone who is interested in discussing it, and I say to the Bible says this...
(1 Corinthians 6:9-11) 9 Or do you not know that unrighteous people will not inherit God’s Kingdom? Do not be misled. Those who are sexually immoral, idolaters, adulterers, men who submit to homosexual acts, men who practice homosexuality, 10 thieves, greedy people, drunkards, revilers, and extortioners will not inherit God’s Kingdom. 11 And yet that is what some of you were. But you have been washed clean; you have been sanctified; you have been declared righteous in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and with the spirit of our God.

So, I say to them, which I don't usually say... I ask, because I believe the best way to teach, is by questions.
However, let's suppose I said to the person, who is homosexual, whether by practice or not... "According to the Bible, homosexuality is a sin, and those who submit to homosexual acts are sinning.
If you are practicing homosexuality, you are sinning."

Am I bashing the person?

I wouldn't say bashing is akin to physical abuse if saying the former is insults and belittlement. Though people do bash others by hitting on them so they could compare. As for sexual orientation or age of the person being abuse, I see no difference. Bashing and abuse is just what it is. The comparison is harsh but yes, I'd see them the same. Years ago, I think they'd be in the same boat, actually. But people put more emphasis on child abuse-probably because many gay people they are thinking of are adults (but do not think how gay bashing affects children as well).

Maybe you didn't understand my question. That's okay. You might understand later.

 

[nPeace]

He's comparing gay bashing with child abuse.

No. I am asking a question. Not a hard question, but maybe no one will answer. I'll see.

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

However, let's suppose I said to the person, who is homosexual, whether by practice or not... "According to the Bible, homosexuality is a sin, and those who submit to homosexual acts are sinning.
If you are practicing homosexuality, you are sinning."

Am I bashing the person?

Usually. But depends on the context.

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

Usually. But depends on the context.

I'll explain...

If for example a homosexual person was flirting with you, heaven forbid because a lot of people wouldn't like it in this world, the response of "I believe in my religion that homosexuality is a sin.".... well it's kind of warranted. They need to know your boundaries.

If instead Christians take every turn to remind other people that in their religion they are a sinner... well it's just adding to the noise, they've heard it 10 or 100 times before, and while I doubt they'll file a restraining order against you or anything, the collective result of all this is in the end persecution by Christians.

 

[nPeace]

ok, now comes the Jehova Witnesses side...

as @ADigitalArtist just said, your comparison is bashing gays, already (@Unveiled Artist, here I tend to believe ADA is right) . So I won't anser this.

but one thing is sure: saying they are perverts is nothing but bashing them. This is something Christians should not do...

Okay, so to say that a rapist is perverted, is bashing, in your opinion. Thanks.
In that case, everyone bashes - not only Christians.
When we say a person is "sick" - not meaning ill - for committing a horrible rape or murder, we are bashing.
I wonder what advise Thomas would give the apostles.
At 1 Corinthians 5:13, apostle Paul said, “Remove the wicked [man] from among yourselves.”
Oh. So you know... Jehovah's Witnesses did not write that.
Read it here, if you like.

actually I didn't, I'm genuinely neutral here. I'm not interested in knowing how God will judge LGBT+ persons, it doesn't affect me.

i was not talking to you, nor about you.

 

[robocop (actually)]

While I am a big fan of the Christian community, it nourishes me every day...
not everthing is as good as it should be, I think.

These days I see it as a fashion among Christians to bash homosexuals and call them "perverts" and "wicked". At least some do and the rest sometimes stays silent when it happens.

Normally Bible says "judge not" - so why do some Christians think it is ok to speak about gays and lesbians in such a disparaging manner?
Judging and condemning happened in the Bible. Paul judged Alexander, for instance. But before, he was getting attacked by Alexander. Homosexuals don't usually attack Christians even if some of them call the former "peril of the youth" - without providing the slightest substanciation for this weird claim of course. By substanciation I mean a Bible verse or a scientific study...

Paul even goes on to teach that people living in sexual sin should even be removed from the churches.*

But never Bible calls for the insulting of other minorities.

Pointing this out within the Christian communities sometimes gets tricky, too.
They say you were "the accuser of the brethren" or interrupted the peace inside of the community.
I sometimes even heard I was purportedly judging the ones who judge homosexuals.
Merely pointing out disparaging remarks judges noone, though. Criticising a statement does not mean criticising the person.

Thomas

Disclaimer: I am neutral towards whether the Bible considers homosexuality or its practice sinful.

* 1 Corinthians 5:7

The Bible also says that we must love homosexuals especially, like the good Samaritan. If we don't have a special love for homosexuals, what difference does it make if we're enforcing their behavior?

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

I'm a gay man of a certain age, which means that when I was young, it was still illegal for me to have the sex I wanted. This changed in 1968, thankfully, when I was 20. And yes, back then, there was a lot of animosity towards gay people in Canada.

But I have to say this -- a lot has changed, and it has changed a lot. It has been literally years since I've heard a slur made against gays in my city (Toronto). Canada has grown up. Most Canadians now understand that being gay is a natural, though not very common, orientation in our species. Like being unusually short or tall, or being unusually fair (or albino).

 

[nPeace]

So now the gay bashing starts.

horrible.
LGBT+ in general are none of this, I think. God created them.

God created LGBT?
Last I read the Bible, God created two people - Adam and Eve, from which all mankind came ... thieves, murderers, rapists, whores, sodomites, pedophiles.
God did not create them. They became what they are.
God made mankind through procreation.

he was judging people that attacked him. Homosexuals in general don't attack.
So you can't compare and Matthew 7 still stands ("judge not").

I do not adulterate God's word. I do not water down sciptures.

So it is right to judge people who attack you. That's okay, right?
Jesus was judging people, full-stop.
Misapplying Matthew 7 continues to stand with you. That's fine by me.

Within reasonable limits that apply to all... no one should tell others how to dress outside government buildings, I think.

Um. The sign was for those entering the building ... ?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

ok, now comes the Jehova Witnesses side...

as @ADigitalArtist just said, your comparison is bashing gays, already (@Unveiled Artist, here I tend to believe ADA is right) . So I won't anser this.

but one thing is sure: saying they are perverts is nothing but bashing them. This is something Christians should not do...


actually I didn't, I'm genuinely neutral here. I'm not interested in knowing how God will judge LGBT+ persons, it doesn't affect me.

I do? I dont remember mentioning any opinion on that

 

[Shadow Wolf]

After church, people are sometimes asked to eat out at a restaurant. (For me it's too expansive anyway.) But if they know someone is gay/lesbian... and they don't ask them because of their sexual orientation... this is discrimination, too, if it happens. This can hurt just as much as an insult. Even more perhaps. I would call it mobbing.

That reminds me of a position I find myself in every once in awhile, usually from well intentioned people (religion/political/whatever). People who normally use the word dude to refer to men or women, it's what they do, I know it's what they normally and usually do, but with me suddenly there is an apology, asking permission, and awkward word changes that do reflect their thoughts on seeing me as different, inherently as an other. They say they accept me, but yet they treat me differently,

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Okay, so to say that a rapist is perverted, is bashing, in your opinion. Thanks.
In that case, everyone bashes - not only Christians.
When we say a person is "sick" - not meaning ill - for committing a horrible rape or murder, we are bashing.

This is the sort of blather I was expecting @Unveiled Artist
Trying to equate the damage rape, murder etc to the damage homosexuality does and thereby use it as an excuse to bash gays.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

This is the sort of blather I was expecting @Unveiled Artist
Trying to equate the damage rape, murder etc to the damage homosexuality does and thereby use it as an excuse to bash gays.

I'm not following. The act of rape and the act of murder is different than the damage/the result bashing does. But I'd assume the victim of rape and murder would have strong emotional damage just as one getting bashed for being homosexual. It depends on the person on how he or she is affected by the rape, murder, or bashing.

But I'm not getting what you're saying.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

I'm not following. The act of rape and the act of murder is different than the damage/the result bashing does. But I'd assume the victim of rape and murder would have strong emotional damage just as one getting bashed for being homosexual. It depends on the person on how he or she is affected by the rape, murder, or bashing.

But I'm not getting what you're saying.

The implication is that it's proper to bash rapists and murderers and therefore proper to bash gays. That's the logic they're using. They think that rape and murder is morally equivalent to gay sex.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I don't mind you interjecting, at all.

Please feel free to do so... always. I appreciate hearing you, and want to hear from you.

So say I am discussing the Bible with someone who is interested in discussing it, and I say to the Bible says this...

(1 Corinthians 6:9-11) 9 Or do you not know that unrighteous people will not inherit God’s Kingdom? Do not be misled. Those who are sexually immoral, idolaters, adulterers, men who submit to homosexual acts, men who practice homosexuality, 10 thieves, greedy people, drunkards, revilers, and extortioners will not inherit God’s Kingdom. 11 And yet that is what some of you were. But you have been washed clean; you have been sanctified; you have been declared righteous in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and with the spirit of our God

The problem is this doesn't refer to homosexuality just people (straight, gay, bi, etc) who have same-sex sex, rape, and so forth. Sinners behavior. There was no differentiation in who these people were attracted to (or the sex their attraction was oriented towards). In the US, we didn't know about sexual orientation if any at all in the 1960s. A lot has changed.

So, I say to them, which I don't usually say... I ask, because I believe the best way to teach, is by questions.

However, let's suppose I said to the person, who is homosexual, whether by practice or not... "According to the Bible, homosexuality is a sin, and those who submit to homosexual acts are sinning.
If you are practicing homosexuality, you are sinning."

Am I bashing the person?

"You" as in directed towards them as a homosexual (because, they are homosexual) or "you" as in any person who commits these acts homosexual or not?

The first is wrong, the second is an opinion.

It's the direction and application of your beliefs rather than the beliefs themselves. For example, I disagree same-sex sex is wrong and immoral. I also disagree it is an act of lust (that gentiles make one person lusts and another person loves). But that's just christian belief.

But if that same person directed their opinions on me as the source of their disagreement, I find that judgmental.

Maybe you didn't understand my question. That's okay. You might understand later.

Probably. Would have to look at it again, I don't know.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I understand... I think. Unless you disagree with what I said.
Okay, so here is a scenario.
A male has attraction to other males, rather than females.
A. Does this male think that it is okay to have these feelings?
B. Does this male want to have sexual intercourse with other males?
C. Does this male promote this as a good thing for others to do?
D. All the above.

Let's start here.

A. I depends on his religion and age. But many people who are through the coming out maturity phrase do find it okay to have these feelings and don't (generalizing) put too much emphasis on them as others do.

B. It depends on the person. Like straight people, some don't want to have relationships. Some rather have platonic. Some want to get married. Some want sex. Some what love. People have different forms of attraction. A person's sex should be irrelevant.

C. All gay people I've met during my life (and myself) really don't focus on what other people do and how they identify. Unless they are friends, family, or another appropriate setting, 98% of the time even with our mates, we don't think about it. It's a default setting like straight people. It only comes up when other people realize we are gay, we tell them, or in the case of this thread, people speak against it or being belittled for it. If the world was not sex-oriented, people just wouldn't care.

D. Most people don't really care how people identify and what they do. We all have our biases, et cetera, but not many are promoting homosexuality as homosexuals because we know sexual orientation (straight, gay, bi, etc) is what we are born with. So, it would be illogical to promote to be someone that you're not.

As in lifestyle, gay people (unlike straight people) don't promote same-sex sex since regardless who a person is attracted to, straight and gay people alike practice SSS all the time. The issue is the judging and stereotyping moreso than the opinion of one's sexual activity-gay, straight, or bi.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

The implication is that it's proper to bash rapists and murderers and therefore proper to bash gays. That's the logic they're using. They think that rape and murder is morally equivalent to gay sex.

That's ridiculous.