G-d and the Fall of man

[Zadok]

One of the continuing problems many have with the concept of G-d is why he would allow suffering and evil. It appears to me that many do not understand the fall of man. Prior to the fall we have a symbolic view of man in Eden where all things were blissful. Because of the fall man would no longer live under the complete protection of G-d but would become subject to suffering and death. It is important to note that the forces put into motion allowed man to experience the collision of the forces of good and evil – not by G-d’s doing but brought about by man.

We live in a state that is not entirely under the control of G-d. This may be disturbing to those that think G-d controls everything. In this state man has input into his destiny through experiments of individual will (sometimes called agency). This means that the suffering and death of innocence is not only likely but inevitable. Also in the fallen state man is exempt from direct contact (proof of) with G-d. Because man is forced to live by faith the evil we each unleash on the world can be because we do not understand the full ramifications of the things we do.

In order that justice can exists a (singular – one and only) mediator G-d was provided to preside over fallen man and all things subject to the fallen state of man. The mediator provides divine payment for all evil. Thus we are allowed a means to repent of any evil we wish to be rid of forever. Or we can choose to live forever in a state similar to this corrupt state where justice does not always prevail or where innocence suffers because of the evil initiated by others.

I realize that there are many that see suffering and conclude that G-d does not exist. But it is this temporary fallen state (which includes divine ignorance) from which the judgment critical of G-d is made. My question of those that do not believe in G-d is how is it that for all that is witnessed in the suffering and other needless death of those that are innocent – upon what do you place any thought or hope of justice? How will justice be served? And if justice does not really exist – why pursue any hope in an effort for justice that is not possible?

Zadok

 

[Father Heathen]

The problem with the whole "fall of man" thing is that it holds innocent people responsible for the actions of others and punishes them for it, and thus is an injustice.

 

[Zadok]

The problem with the whole "fall of man" thing is that it holds innocent people responsible for the actions of others and punishes them for it, and thus is an injustice.

Agreeded - nowever LDS doctrine is that all manking existed prior to the fall and agreeded to this fallen experience - those that did not agree to experience a fall will not have this experience.

Thanks you for you input

Zadok

 

[Skwim]

One of the continuing problems many have with the concept of G-d is why he would allow suffering and evil.

"Allow"? Hell, he created it!

It appears to me that many do not understand the fall of man. Prior to the fall we have a symbolic view of man in Eden where all things were blissful.

"Symbolic" you say. Pleased to see you agreeing with non-Christians here.

Because of the fall man would no longer live under the complete protection of G-d but would become subject to suffering and death.

Nice to visit the sins of the father on all succeeding generations. But just what was god protecting man from in the first place? Didn't god create Earth and everything in/on it as a perpetual eden?

It is important to note that the forces put into motion allowed man to experience the collision of the forces of good and evil – not by G-d’s doing but brought about by man.

So why did he put these "forces," which were put into motion, out there in the first place? Doesn't make sense, particularly when one considers how disappointed he was when man found them.

In order that justice can exists a (singular – one and only) mediator G-d was provided to preside over fallen man and all things subject to the fallen state of man.

"Justice"? It was just to subject an innocent, guileless man and woman to the trickery of a far more crafty villain than they could even imagine, and then hold them and all their progeny in hostage to all the cruelty god had waiting for them?

The mediator provides divine payment for all evil. Thus we are allowed a means to repent of any evil we wish to be rid of forever.

Yeah, an evil neither you nor I had any hand in. If any repenting is called for it's god's for what he's saddled his creation with. "I form the light, and create darkness:

I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."
(Isaiah 45:7, KJV)
​

I realize that there are many that see suffering and conclude that G-d does not exist.

Well there are far more, and better, reasons than this, but it's certainly on the list.

My question of those that do not believe in G-d is how is it that for all that is witnessed in the suffering and other needless death of those that are innocent – upon what do you place any thought or hope of justice?

The replacement of unthinking religious belief, prejudice, and self-anointed privelige with reason.

How will justice be served?

By holding those responsible for the wrong they do. Just as it always has.

nowever LDS doctrine is that all manking existed prior to the fall and agreeded to this fallen experience - those that did not agree to experience a fall will not have this experience.

Don't remember agreeing, but it seems I don't suffer any less than anyone else, who I assume did agree.

 

[Wotan]

One of the continuing problems many have with the concept of G-d is why he would allow suffering and evil. It appears to me that many do not understand the fall of man. Prior to the fall we have a symbolic view of man in Eden where all things were blissful. Because of the fall man would no longer live under the complete protection of G-d but would become subject to suffering and death. It is important to note that the forces put into motion allowed man to experience the collision of the forces of good and evil – not by G-d’s doing but brought about by man.

We live in a state that is not entirely under the control of G-d. This may be disturbing to those that think G-d controls everything. In this state man has input into his destiny through experiments of individual will (sometimes called agency). This means that the suffering and death of innocence is not only likely but inevitable. Also in the fallen state man is exempt from direct contact (proof of) with G-d. Because man is forced to live by faith the evil we each unleash on the world can be because we do not understand the full ramifications of the things we do.

In order that justice can exists a (singular – one and only) mediator G-d was provided to preside over fallen man and all things subject to the fallen state of man. The mediator provides divine payment for all evil. Thus we are allowed a means to repent of any evil we wish to be rid of forever. Or we can choose to live forever in a state similar to this corrupt state where justice does not always prevail or where innocence suffers because of the evil initiated by others.

I realize that there are many that see suffering and conclude that G-d does not exist. But it is this temporary fallen state (which includes divine ignorance) from which the judgment critical of G-d is made. My question of those that do not believe in G-d is how is it that for all that is witnessed in the suffering and other needless death of those that are innocent – upon what do you place any thought or hope of justice? How will justice be served? And if justice does not really exist – why pursue any hope in an effort for justice that is not possible?

Zadok

And your EVIDENCE for all this is . . . .what?

 

[Penumbra]

One of the continuing problems many have with the concept of G-d is why he would allow suffering and evil. It appears to me that many do not understand the fall of man. Prior to the fall we have a symbolic view of man in Eden where all things were blissful. Because of the fall man would no longer live under the complete protection of G-d but would become subject to suffering and death. It is important to note that the forces put into motion allowed man to experience the collision of the forces of good and evil – not by G-d’s doing but brought about by man.

We live in a state that is not entirely under the control of G-d. This may be disturbing to those that think G-d controls everything. In this state man has input into his destiny through experiments of individual will (sometimes called agency). This means that the suffering and death of innocence is not only likely but inevitable. Also in the fallen state man is exempt from direct contact (proof of) with G-d. Because man is forced to live by faith the evil we each unleash on the world can be because we do not understand the full ramifications of the things we do.

In order that justice can exists a (singular – one and only) mediator G-d was provided to preside over fallen man and all things subject to the fallen state of man. The mediator provides divine payment for all evil. Thus we are allowed a means to repent of any evil we wish to be rid of forever. Or we can choose to live forever in a state similar to this corrupt state where justice does not always prevail or where innocence suffers because of the evil initiated by others.

I realize that there are many that see suffering and conclude that G-d does not exist. But it is this temporary fallen state (which includes divine ignorance) from which the judgment critical of G-d is made.

For any of this to be a valid argument, you would have to provide a reason to believe you. Can you provide evidence that humankind was once in a non-fallen state?

Science and history tend to disagree with this view. Life developed on our planet, in harsh conditions, and changed over time. Billions of years later, humans developed. There existed suffering and death, volcanoes and mass extinctions, way before humans even developed here. Most religions don't seem to have good answers for this, in my opinion. The stories don't match up to the facts.

My question of those that do not believe in G-d is how is it that for all that is witnessed in the suffering and other needless death of those that are innocent – upon what do you place any thought or hope of justice? How will justice be served? And if justice does not really exist – why pursue any hope in an effort for justice that is not possible?

Justice is the responsibility of humans. To say that it is not possible is misleading, as it often is possible. Pursuit of justice is the pursuit of a reasonable society, and although not every case is solved (even huge atrocities), the only thing we can do is work to make sure as many are solved as possible.

 

[EtuMalku]

According to Jewish mysticism;

On the original Tree of Life, Yesod, the astral abode of man, is an exact reflection of the highest plane, Kether, an exactness of the God.
The original Tree of Life did not contain the material world, instead the non-Sephira Daath existed., united by paths with Kether (above), Chokmah, Binah, Geburah and Tiphareth (below).

The Fall represents mankind's and nature's fall into materialism. This Fall shields us from the spiritual world and opens an Abyss (Daath) between Man and the Divine. The Right Hand Path of traditional Qabalah aims to restore the original harmonic relation between man and the Divine (atonement).

The Left Hand Path fulfills and deepens the Fall. The Dark Adept continues the Fall from the Abrahamic God to reach individual divinity.
The reason behind the Fall is often described as being hubris, man's search for knowledge and forces that originally were not meant for him to acquire. The Left Hand Path leads to a second birth, a spiritual rebirth as a god/creator.



Lucifer-Daath, the original Serpent, represents the divine force of creation that is able to carry out the idea of creation.
Lucifer-Daath sinks down to man's level and awakens the power of creation and the sexual energy in man. Thus, man can reach the knowledge which was previously only accessible to God.

The adepts of the Left Hand Path glorify the Fall and allow the destruction to be fulfilled. Leading away from the Tree of Life and further into the Tree of Knowledge.

(all symbolic / metaphoric / allegoric poopelnagel if you ask me)

EM

 

[waitasec]

One of the continuing problems many have with the concept of G-d is why he would allow suffering and evil. It appears to me that many do not understand the fall of man. Prior to the fall we have a symbolic view of man in Eden where all things were blissful. Because of the fall man would no longer live under the complete protection of G-d but would become subject to suffering and death. It is important to note that the forces put into motion allowed man to experience the collision of the forces of good and evil – not by G-d’s doing but brought about by man.

We live in a state that is not entirely under the control of G-d. This may be disturbing to those that think G-d controls everything. In this state man has input into his destiny through experiments of individual will (sometimes called agency). This means that the suffering and death of innocence is not only likely but inevitable. Also in the fallen state man is exempt from direct contact (proof of) with G-d. Because man is forced to live by faith the evil we each unleash on the world can be because we do not understand the full ramifications of the things we do.

In order that justice can exists a (singular – one and only) mediator G-d was provided to preside over fallen man and all things subject to the fallen state of man. The mediator provides divine payment for all evil. Thus we are allowed a means to repent of any evil we wish to be rid of forever. Or we can choose to live forever in a state similar to this corrupt state where justice does not always prevail or where innocence suffers because of the evil initiated by others.

I realize that there are many that see suffering and conclude that G-d does not exist. But it is this temporary fallen state (which includes divine ignorance) from which the judgment critical of G-d is made. My question of those that do not believe in G-d is how is it that for all that is witnessed in the suffering and other needless death of those that are innocent – upon what do you place any thought or hope of justice? How will justice be served? And if justice does not really exist – why pursue any hope in an effort for justice that is not possible?

Zadok

we live in a scary world...

chaos is everywhere. why should justice be served? by whom? certainly not a supreme being. but by us.
we judge eachother, we place order in the chaos...
look at wall street :sarcastic
we have questions and we inquire. progress cannot exist without tension and rebellion.
if life were to be perfect all the time, what is the point? how can anyone appreciate happiness without knowing sorrow? the concept of heaven is a silly one. we are beings that thrive to adjust, improvise and acclimate to challenges. otherwise we stagnate and end up becoming selfish and self centered... the obvious vice of religion, imo

 

[yourhopeboundheart]

In order that justice can exists a (singular – one and only) mediator G-d was provided to preside over fallen man and all things subject to the fallen state of man.

haha, sounds like he's just a department head. "Thank you for calling the Fallen State department, this is Yahweh how many I help you?"

My question of those that do not believe in G-d is how is it that for all that is witnessed in the suffering and other needless death of those that are innocent – upon what do you place any thought or hope of justice? How will justice be served? And if justice does not really exist – why pursue any hope in an effort for justice that is not possible?

Universal justice is only possible through cause and effect. If something we find horrific is unchecked by cause and effect, or effect is avoided in some way - we may be the effect ourselves. If we're not seeing the results we want, we should be more effective.

 

[Skwim]

I believe Zadok has abandoned the thread. When the going gets tough the weak . . . . :run:

 

[Kilgore Trout]

One of the continuing problems with the concept of god and suffering, is that people tend to mistake pointing out logical inconsistencies in people's ideas, with that being the reason they don't believe. The non-existence of god is more than sufficient for absence of belief. Pointing out logical inconsistencies is for the edification of those who are apparently unaware of the illogic of these concepts.