Fundamental or Natural Rights

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The Founders of the Republic made it clear that certain rights are unalienable BECAUSE they came from God.

Unalienable rights for white men, yes. Thry weren't exactly keen on rights for anyone else.

Because atheists are a very vocal minority in no way changes this fact.

Any rights that can be granted or revoked by a God can't be considered "unalienable," because they could be alienated (by God).

A right is only inviolable if it can't be violated. If God could violate it (and if God were to exist), then that right isn't inviolable.

Of course, there has always been those who believe that if they can undermine this fact, they can contrive a government that decides what rights the people have. Assuming it will be their government, they can eradicate a whole plethora of things they disagree with, and the people who claim these rights.

It won't work. Ask hitler, or stalin.

... or Jefferson.

Slavery and liberty: A new exhibit explores the Thomas Jefferson paradox

Actually, Hitler is an example of what can happen when people appeal to God instead of democracy in matters of rights. It's just that the God Hitler invoked was an antisemitic, genocidal God.

 

[Left Coast]

The fact that a government interferes with your God given right in no way eliminates it.
It exists, and cannot be revoked.
Unborn babies have the right to life, the fact that they are daily slaughtered does not change that fact.

Having a right, and not being able to exercise it are not the same thing.

And claiming a person has a right, and them actually having that right, are not the same thing either.

Your god isn't around to tell us what rights he has or hasn't given us. And what rights he has given us are completely irrelevant if the government we live in doesn't recognize them. Our reality in that case is identical to a situation where he hasn't given them to us at all.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

Possibly. One could argue that whatever one has the physical capability of doing, one has the right to do it.

I've always thought that one's thoughts fall into this sort of category also - which may count as a "physical" capability I suppose. No one else is actually able to "own" or "control"/"operate" your thoughts. Well... at least not with current technology I suppose. Leaving each of us the sole proprietor of, and the only one bearing anything nearing a "right" to, our thoughts.

 

[Ayjaydee]

So no natural rights. I agee

So if a natural right isn't bestowed by another who bestowed it?

 

[Ayjaydee]

The Founders of the Republic made it clear that certain rights are unalienable BECAUSE they came from God.

Because atheists are a very vocal minority in no way changes this fact.

Of course, there has always been those who believe that if they can undermine this fact, they can contrive a government that decides what rights the people have. Assuming it will be their government, they can eradicate a whole plethora of things they disagree with, and the people who claim these rights.

It won't work. Ask hitler, or stalin.

God isn't a fact so neither can his bestowing rights be a fact

 

[Ayjaydee]

What rights are you given by a creator?

None that I know of

 

[osgart]

If you wish to have a peaceful existence then rights come by natural reason. Otherwise it's king of the hill, and fear the king or die. No three ways about it. Only two options exist. Establish justice or war for your spoils.

 

[Ayjaydee]

If you wish to have a peaceful existence then rights come by natural reason. Otherwise it's king of the hill, and fear the king or die. No three ways about it. Only two options exist. Establish justice or war for your spoils.

But rights are granted

 

[osgart]

But rights are granted

And to have peace you must grant them without preference.

 

[Ayjaydee]

And to have peace you must grant them without preference.

but if granted they can be removed hence alienable

 

[osgart]

but if granted they can be removed hence alienable

But if you remove rights for no good and justifiable reason, you have created oppression, and opposition and a king of the hill situation.

 

[Ayjaydee]

But if you remove rights for no good and justifiable reason, you have created oppression, and opposition and a king of the hill situation.

Yes you have. And that is often done

 

[osgart]

Yes you have. And that is often done

Otherwise you would have to appeal to a magic natural force that protects everybody who is deemed worthwhile.

 

[Ayjaydee]

Otherwise you would have to appeal to a magic natural force that protects everybody who is deemed worthwhile.

Seems I've seen evidence of that

 

[osgart]

Seems I've seen evidence of that

I would love to see such evidence of that, but I don't.

 

[Ayjaydee]

I would love to see such evidence of that, but I don't.

I've only seen the appeals, never the protection

 

[shmogie]

God isn't a fact so neither can his bestowing rights be a fact

Your opinion is noted.

 

[Ayjaydee]

Your opinion is noted.

As is the lack of proof that god in fact exists

 

[Wandering Monk]

Christians like to complain that the world is getting worse and worse as it becomes more secular, but along with increasing secularism have come increasing democracy, human rights, longevity, wealth, health and so on.

 

[shmogie]

Christians like to complain that the world is getting worse and worse as it becomes more secular, but along with increasing secularism have come increasing democracy, human rights, longevity, wealth, health and so on.

Go to Africa and tell them how well off they are. From there, take your message to the middle east, then zip over to China and tell them how their human rights have improved. Finish up in Britain, where poverty is increasing at an alarming rate.

Then, tell me how well off the world is.