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Fully Human and Fully Devine

pearl

Well-Known Member
How it may be exemplified in Mt 15:26-27.
I find this interpretation interesting and refreshingly less doctrinal.

He said in reply,

“It is not right to take the food of the children

and throw it to the dogs.”

She said, “Please, Lord, for even the dogs eat the scraps

that fall from the table of their masters.”

New Testament scholars are of several minds about this complex reading. Some say that Jesus’s words should be seen as “playful,” since the word he is using is closer to “puppies.” Others disagree and say no, it means “dogs,” as most translations have it today. As a result, many people find this an alarming episode, with Jesus either calling the woman a dog, her daughter a dog or her people dogs. (She is a “Canaanite” woman here, but a “Syro-Phoenician” in Mark’s earlier version of the story.)

On the other hand, some believe that Jesus is challenging the woman because he knows she will push back. This is more the divine Jesus taking charge. Thus, it is a demonstration for the disciples to show them the value of persistence. But this interpretation angers some people because it implies that Jesus is somehow using the woman as a prop, without concern for her feelings.

In response to that argument, some others contend that Jesus knew she was a strong woman, and his blunt words are a sign of his respect for her. As in, “I know that she can handle this.” In this interpretation, she is of greater faith than even the disciples, and he wants them to see this.

Did Jesus have a fully human consciousness, and was he therefore only able to know what he was taught? Did he have a fully divine consciousness, and did he therefore know all things at all times? Or was it something in between?

For me, their encounter is a human exchange with a divine ending. My sense is that the woman is indeed inviting Jesus to understand his mission in a new way. It’s part of Jesus’ humanity to see things in a fresh way, and it’s part of his divinity to instinctively know that the woman is right. Then comes the healing.

What does it mean to say Jesus was fully human and fully divine? Today’s Gospel gives us a clue. | America Magazine


 

Brickjectivity

Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
Staff member
Premium Member
@pearl I used up my free readings on America Mag. Sorry.

I might view this passage in Matthew 15 as part of a sermon discussing 1 Kings 17, the story of the time Elijah leaves the country and goes to stay with a non Jewish widow in Sidon. She feeds him and herself while the country of Israel is going through a terrible drought. He resurrects her son. Up until this point she has denied that he is a man of God, calling him 'Man of God' in an ironic and provocative way, but after the resurrection of her son she says something very strange (for someone who has read Deuteronomy.) "Now I know you are a man of God!" She of course cannot know he is a man of God merely because he has performed a trick. After all he could have poisoned her son, then given her son an antidote. That isn't the point of the story. Miracles prove nothing.

What this miracle means in the story is that the outsiders, those like ourselves who don't know Moses and Abraham, will not receive the teachings of Abraham until life is breathed into us. We are both the dead son and the widow. We have housed the prophet, but we cannot accept the prophet in our dead state. Revelation to us is for a future time, a time when outsiders can receive the spirit of wisdom that is on the elders.

The author of Matthew 15 has a story in which this time has now come. Now the woman is ready to hear. She has became alive enough.
 

Brickjectivity

Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
Staff member
Premium Member
...so the tie-in with what you are saying about being fully human and fully divine has to do with this. There is a sense of becoming more divine. The woman was a dog but now is a child.
 

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
How it may be exemplified in Mt 15:26-27.
I find this interpretation interesting and refreshingly less doctrinal.

He said in reply,

“It is not right to take the food of the children

and throw it to the dogs.”

She said, “Please, Lord, for even the dogs eat the scraps

that fall from the table of their masters.”

New Testament scholars are of several minds about this complex reading. Some say that Jesus’s words should be seen as “playful,” since the word he is using is closer to “puppies.” Others disagree and say no, it means “dogs,” as most translations have it today. As a result, many people find this an alarming episode, with Jesus either calling the woman a dog, her daughter a dog or her people dogs. (She is a “Canaanite” woman here, but a “Syro-Phoenician” in Mark’s earlier version of the story.)

On the other hand, some believe that Jesus is challenging the woman because he knows she will push back. This is more the divine Jesus taking charge. Thus, it is a demonstration for the disciples to show them the value of persistence. But this interpretation angers some people because it implies that Jesus is somehow using the woman as a prop, without concern for her feelings.

In response to that argument, some others contend that Jesus knew she was a strong woman, and his blunt words are a sign of his respect for her. As in, “I know that she can handle this.” In this interpretation, she is of greater faith than even the disciples, and he wants them to see this.

Did Jesus have a fully human consciousness, and was he therefore only able to know what he was taught? Did he have a fully divine consciousness, and did he therefore know all things at all times? Or was it something in between?

For me, their encounter is a human exchange with a divine ending. My sense is that the woman is indeed inviting Jesus to understand his mission in a new way. It’s part of Jesus’ humanity to see things in a fresh way, and it’s part of his divinity to instinctively know that the woman is right. Then comes the healing.

What does it mean to say Jesus was fully human and fully divine? Today’s Gospel gives us a clue. | America Magazine

The magazine appears to misanswer the question it poses.

It asks what it means to say Jesus was fully human and fully devine.

Then answers with what it means for Jesus to be partly human and partly divine.

In my opinion.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
How it may be exemplified in Mt 15:26-27.
I find this interpretation interesting and refreshingly less doctrinal.

He said in reply,

“It is not right to take the food of the children

and throw it to the dogs.”

She said, “Please, Lord, for even the dogs eat the scraps

that fall from the table of their masters.”

New Testament scholars are of several minds about this complex reading. Some say that Jesus’s words should be seen as “playful,” since the word he is using is closer to “puppies.” Others disagree and say no, it means “dogs,” as most translations have it today. As a result, many people find this an alarming episode, with Jesus either calling the woman a dog, her daughter a dog or her people dogs. (She is a “Canaanite” woman here, but a “Syro-Phoenician” in Mark’s earlier version of the story.)

On the other hand, some believe that Jesus is challenging the woman because he knows she will push back. This is more the divine Jesus taking charge. Thus, it is a demonstration for the disciples to show them the value of persistence. But this interpretation angers some people because it implies that Jesus is somehow using the woman as a prop, without concern for her feelings.

In response to that argument, some others contend that Jesus knew she was a strong woman, and his blunt words are a sign of his respect for her. As in, “I know that she can handle this.” In this interpretation, she is of greater faith than even the disciples, and he wants them to see this.

Did Jesus have a fully human consciousness, and was he therefore only able to know what he was taught? Did he have a fully divine consciousness, and did he therefore know all things at all times? Or was it something in between?

For me, their encounter is a human exchange with a divine ending. My sense is that the woman is indeed inviting Jesus to understand his mission in a new way. It’s part of Jesus’ humanity to see things in a fresh way, and it’s part of his divinity to instinctively know that the woman is right. Then comes the healing.

What does it mean to say Jesus was fully human and fully divine? Today’s Gospel gives us a clue. | America Magazine

I guess the question is: How do you mean “divine”?
This ability to read hearts was given him by God..
The same as Solomon was given the greatest wisdom. But that doesn’t mean Solomon was God, does it?

The Jews realized this; many times, after Jesus performed a miracle, they recognized the Source: they gave glory to - who? - God, Jesus’ Father.

Really, “divine” means “of God”, or “from God.” And that, certainly applies to Jesus.
"Fully Human and Fully Devine"

Is it the same as divine, please?

Regards
Yes, it’s just a typo.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
paarsurrey said:
"Fully Human and Fully Devine"

Is it the same as divine, please?
Yes, it’s just a typo.
" Fully Human and Fully Devine"

Did Jesus ever claim to be "fully human and fully divine, please?
If yes, then kindly quote from him in this connection, please. Right?
If not then, isn't it an
accusation that Hellenist-Pauline-Christianity people continue doing all the time against (Jesus) Yeshua-the Israelite Messiah, please? Right?

Regards
 
Last edited:

pearl

Well-Known Member
Then answers with what it means for Jesus to be partly human and partly divine.

The author is providing one explanation of the Gospel reading for that day.
Jesus first acted negatively, but finally healed her. We are told that the missing years before He begins His ministry that He 'grew in wisdom and stature'.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
"Fully Human and Fully Devine" Is it the same as divine, please?

Yes. Devine is a misspelling of divine.

Did Jesus ever claim to be "fully human and fully divine, please? If yes, then kindly quote from him in this connection, please.

I can't answer that for you, but I can get you started:
Is Jesus Fully God and Fully Human? | GCU Blog
How is Jesus fully God and fully man? Why is this important? | Grace Fellowship Church - NE (graceomaha.org)
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
I believe He can't be fully human because He does not sin and can't be fully divine because He has a body. What can be said is that the body definitely appears to be mostly human and God within the body makes the divine present in speech and actions.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
...so the tie-in with what you are saying about being fully human and fully divine has to do with this. There is a sense of becoming more divine. The woman was a dog but now is a child.

I can't conceive how Jesus could become more or less divine and I don't see the passage as a learning experience for anyone other than the apostles.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
The author is providing one explanation of the Gospel reading for that day.
Jesus first acted negatively, but finally healed her. We are told that the missing years before He begins His ministry that He 'grew in wisdom and stature'.

I believe this is pretty standard for God. He will test a person's faith even though He knows what the result will be.
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
The magazine appears to misanswer the question it poses.

It asks what it means to say Jesus was fully human and fully devine.

Then answers with what it means for Jesus to be partly human and partly divine.

In my opinion.
I agree, but then these sort of desperate rationalisations are a common way many apologists have of waving away rational contradictions of this sort.
 

Brickjectivity

Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
Staff member
Premium Member
I can't conceive how Jesus could become more or less divine and I don't see the passage as a learning experience for anyone other than the apostles.
Thank you for the comment. I will address you and @paarsurrey at the same time.

The concept of divinity in humans is mentioned many times in the Pentateuch whenever it talks about being made in the image of God. The concept of image is not that of a photo but of a miniature, like a hologram or a wax seal of the original. The shape of God is impressed into us but not only this, but it says Adam is made in the image of God. Genesis declares that the reason we must not murder people is that people are made in God's image. Jews are not permitted to make graven images, however they believe people are made in God's image. So should Christians, but what is the point I wish to make here concerning Jesus and divinity?

In the Christian scriptures Jesus is not born perfect. He is an amazing child, but he's not divine when he's a child more than any other people. He becomes perfected not from birth born but through his obedience to the point of death. (Hebrews 5:9) In other words when he abandons self he becomes able to become divine. We can argue about whether it requires his actual death or not. In the gospels it is symbolized by his death or he dies physically, but in either case he gives up himself completely.

I think Jesus begins as a human, then he becomes divine. This is not what the link graciously provided by @It Aint Necessarily So or what perhaps you are familiar with.

By 'Become divine' I am alluding to the gospel of John chapter 1 which says the Logos comes, dwells among us giving us the power to become sons of God. It is a power that is available but which can only be obtained in exchange for giving up something: our self. He becomes perfected not from birth born but through his obedience (Hebrews 5:9). Also I allude to a scripture in Romans 8:29 which says Jesus is the first among many (we) brothers. I also allude to Hebrews 2:11 which says Jesus is not ashamed to call us brothers -- hence also divine like him once we have performed the same self denial.

I also allude to all passages about denying ourselves and dying with him. This I perceive to be the path to divinity in Christ. The man disappears and all that is left is Christ. His desires, dreams, personal details, height, weight, appearance, sex, cravings, friends, pleasures are all gone. Jesus is the first to do this.

Consider how austere so many Christians attempt to become. They are following Christ's example. They shed their riches -- all that is themselves -- to fit through the eye of the needle. Its not for pleasure or gold but for sake of the joy they will bring to other people. They become like parents to all or like mothers -- or like the heavenly Father.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member

Sorry, it cannot get started with me if :
  1. it doesn't have a claim from Yeshua- the Israelite Messiah, and with gist of reason/s pertaining to that claim also from Yeshua, else, all reasoning/arguments given by one are just beating about the bush and making another religion in the name of Yeshua (like Hellenist-Pauline-Christianity is) but not know to Yeshua, one could say, please. Right?
  2. The same way if one cannot give a claim from Moses with gist of reason/s pertaining to such claim also from Moses* then it also is making another religion in the name of Moses, but not known to Moses, reason suggests it, please. Right?
Regards
__________________
Jerusalem Post
*Was Moses Jewish ?
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
paarsurrey said:
"Fully Human and Fully Devine"

Is it the same as divine, please?

" Fully Human and Fully Devine"

Did Jesus ever claim to be "fully human and fully divine, please?
If yes, then kindly quote from him in this connection, please. Right?
If not then, isn't it an
accusation that Hellenist-Pauline-Christianity people continue doing all the time against (Jesus) Yeshua-the Israelite Messiah, please? Right?

Regards
I was simply agreeing with you, that the word is “divine”, not “devine.”
 

PearlSeeker

Well-Known Member
Did Jesus have a fully human consciousness, and was he therefore only able to know what he was taught? Did he have a fully divine consciousness, and did he therefore know all things at all times? Or was it something in between?
So the author's answer is: something in between?
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Fully Human and Fully Devine

(Jesus) Yeshua- the Israelite Messiah never claimed it to be, please. Right?
If yes, then kindly quote from him in this connection, please. Right?
Isn't it a silly accusation made against (Jesus) Yeshua- the Israelite Messiah by the Hellenist-Pauline Christianity people, please? Right?

Regards
_______________

https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateReli...sition_stating_jesus_is_both_fully_human_and/
Position: Stating Jesus is both fully human and fully divine ...
https://www.reddit.com › DebateReligion › comments


 
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