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Featured Fulfillment of Prophecy in the New Testament

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Israel Khan, Jun 3, 2020.

  1. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    And that's what the Baha'is say. Except... what societal laws did Jesus teach? Like if a man's bull gores his neighbor?

    Is there wiggle room in the Hebrew word used for "eternal" to allow for Christians and Baha'is to say that God changes his laws? But it's more like he gets rid of them. With Christians it seems like they still refer to moral laws and maybe a few others, though. Baha'is... they have their own laws. They just say that the "spiritual" laws never change, just the social laws.
     
  2. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    My interpretation is as good as yours, but you are free to have your beliefs and I will have mine.
    I will leave it to you and others on the forum that care about prophecies to discuss prophecies. Unless they are very specific, prophecies are not a reliable indicator because they can always be denied, and they can also be twisted to mean whatever people want them to mean.
    There are so many prophecies but Micah 7:12 is a good one.

    Please note that Baha’u’llah had no control over His own destiny for the last 40 years of His Life after He declared His mission because He was deemed a prisoner of the government He was banished and exiled from place to place. The following prophecy was fulfilled by these exiles and banishments.

    Map of Baháʼu'lláh's banishments

    upload_2020-6-28_22-11-19.png



    Micah 7:12 In that day also he shall come even to thee from Assyria, and from the fortified cities, and from the fortress even to the river, and from sea to sea, and from mountain to mountain.

    He shall come from Assyria: At that time Assyria was a large area. Baha’u’llah and His family lived in the part that was Persia, now Iran, in the city of Tihran.

    and from the fortified cities: Baha’u’llah was banished from city to city: After being released from the Black Pit dungeon in Tihran in 1852, His family and companions had only a short time before being sent to the fortified city of Baghdad. While living in Baghdad, He gained such a large following that the enemies where shocked. Right away He was banished again, this time to the fortified city of Istanbul.

    The Governor of the city refused many times to fulfill the orders that he received to banish Him again. Finally forced to follow orders, Baha’u’llah was banished again to the fortified city of Adrianople. He was honored and praised, and shown respect everywhere, until He was finally sent to the most horrific of all places, the fortress of Akka, where it was expected that He would succumb to the terrible conditions.

    and from the fortress even to the river: It was while in Baghdad that the Tigris river became a special place, as Baha’u’llah crossed it to the Ridvan Garden. April 21, 1863 was the fulfilment of prophecy, as that was when Baha’u’llah declared to those around Him His Station as the Manifestation of God.

    and from sea to sea: After His banishment in Baghdad, His exile was by way of the Black Sea. Still a prisoner He crossed the Black Sea from Sinope on His way to Constantinople. After the banishment in Adrianople, He crossed the Mediterranean Sea from Gallipolis in Turkey, embarking at Alexandria, Egypt, then on to the fortress of 'Akka, the most desolate of cities.

    and from mountain to mountain: The time in Baghdad was turbulent with opposition. To protect His family and companions Baha’u’llah went to the Kurdistan mountains. There He lived in poverty, but the area was magnetized by His presence. After two years, He was persuaded to return to Baghdad.

    The other mountain was in Israel, Mount Carmel, where He had docked before His final journey to Akka. Later He had a chance to return to Mount Carmel, to pitch His tent. Here He wrote the Tablet Of Carmel, surrounded by pilgrims looking for the return of Christ to descend from heaven. Mount Carmel is the headquarters of the Baha’i Faith.

    From: William Sears, Thief in the Night
    Jesus’ words were never abrogated, only His Dispensation was abrogated.
    None of these are denials or replacements of the Bible. All of them are just different ways that people interpret the Bible. Christians believe they have shown something and Baha’is believe that have shown something, and in reality, they are just different interpretations of the same verses. But I am not going to cover the same ground again. If you do not understand the logic by now, you never will.
     
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  3. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg One Planet One People Please
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    Virtues are our adorning CG, but developing eyes and ears for the spiritual life to come, are the hardest spiritual lessons.

    Regards Tony
     
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  4. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg One Planet One People Please
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    That prophecy is about as clear as it gets. Yet the many Christains I show it to, just shrug the shoulders, or default to the statement that Jesus is the only Name by which you are saved.

    It makes me wonder how they think Jesus Christs Prophecies were and clearer?

    But not only that, there is a truck load for Baha'u'llah, that can be shown to be fulfilled, over the handful for Jesus the Christ.

    Regards Tony
     
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  5. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Well-Known Member

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    You can see the benefit in believers today. Even though it most likely is a false belief, it gives people hope, and hope helps people overcome tremendous odds. Think of why people follow religions. Most believe because it gives them comfort by providing them with hope, as opposed to actually examining the evidence. Whether the resurrection is spiritual or not doesn't matter as long as hope is involved. Hope makes people stress less and feel more at ease. This is the purpose of religion.

    Also I would understand if you say resurrections as a whole are not of value, but why do find a spiritual resurrection understandable and the physical one not? I don't understand why you have a problem with the one and not the other.

    Also note, this doesn't make the whole of the NT of no value.
     
  6. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    It does not matter how many prophecies Baha'u'llah fulfilled or how clear they are.
    Christians are waiting for the same man Jesus to return in the physical clouds.
    I do not think that Christians want to know even if Baha'u'llah was the return of Christ, because that would mean the same man Jesus is not coming back and that would spoil their hopes and dreams. It's all psychological. Imo.
     
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  7. syo

    syo Well-Known Member

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    Because the physical resurrection is impossible. How can I believe the impossible???
     
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  8. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Well-Known Member

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    I prefer to say "we have no evidence at the moment to believe that such a thing could have happen or could happen". To say that something is "impossible" is to make a truth claim based on incredulity. I could just as easily say that a spiritual resurrection is impossible.

    We do not actually know whether we will find evidence in the future that someone can be physically resurrected.

    By the way your response about the resurrection being impossible doesn't address whether that belief is valuable or not.
     
  9. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    No doubt the whole passage from Daniel 9:24 to Daniel 9:27 needs to be considered for possible reasons that the Christians see it as referring to The Messiah. The Christian translations should not translate The Messiah when that is not what the original text tells us however. There may be a language reason for the Christian translations however.
     
  10. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    This is a great and complicated question. The Torah laws, according to Judaism, as eternal not just because of a singular verse that uses a word (or, actually, a phrase) that means "eternal" but because the text says that we are bound to them and in the future, at any point, we will still be bound to them. So as long as people are around, the laws will be in effect.

    The Hebrew "l'olam" is often thought of as meaning "forever". It means "to the world" and is understood of as "to the [end of] the world". However, there are specific contexts where it means "for an indeterminate long time" or even "for a specific long, but not eternal time -- up to 50 years." A phrase like "l'olam va'ed" is much closer to "forever." But in the absence of any mitigating factors or interpreted phrases to the contrary, we see that a covenant, or an obligation, marked with the word "olam" means "forever" (so circumcision in Gen 17:13) and the Sabbath (in Ex 31:16-17) are eternal covenants requiring that we follow the actual laws.

    One of those bilateral agreements is to be bound to the "Torah" (as in Deut 29:13-14 -- it was given to all those at Sinai and all those not at Sinai which refers to all later generations, and Deut 32:46 which names explicitly that it is the "Torah" which Jews must follow). In Lev 26:44-46 God says that if we sin, our covenant will not be annulled and when we return, we will still be bound by the same Torah (he uses the word to point explicitly to the same canon of law). There is no time limit given. No situation is presented in which those laws suddenly no longer apply. If the Torah is perfect (Psalms 19) then to say that God (who is perfect, Deut 32:4) changes or gets rid of it is to lessen that perfection.

    As I said, it is a complex idea and I hope I gave a proper entree into the topic. I saw a lovely explanation which starts with an apparent contradiction in the words of a particular talmudic sage. In one place he says "in Messianci days there will be no mitzvot/commandments." In another, he says "the halachot (laws) are eternal and will be eternally followed." It was explained that in the future, following the laws will be automatic and won't require that we are commanded to do so, so the "command" aspect will disappear, but not the behaviors and law-following.
     
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  11. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    If I had faith in Baha'u'llah then no doubt I would see the Bible the way you do but because I am a Christian I see things written in the Bible which are warnings to me about false Christs and which Baha'i manages to skirt around in an unconvincing way imo
    eg Acts 1:10,11
    10 They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11 “Men of Galilee, they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”

    The Baha'i "interpretation" of what the angel said (if indeed the event is admitted to have happened by Baha'is) is to see "this same Jesus" as Baha'u'llah (thus a different Jesus) and to see "in the same way you have seen him go into heaven" as meaning "not in the same way you have seen him go into heaven" (or some other symbolic interpretation).
    To me this is just a denial of what is in the Bible and a replacing it with Baha'i teachings.
    In every place where the NT tells us that Jesus will come back and even when Jesus says He will come back it is just explained away as if what the Bible says does not really matter when compared to what Baha'u'llah said.
     
  12. Harel13

    Harel13 Nin-Jew Master
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    The Messiah or the anointed one in Hebrew is Hamashiach המשיח.
    A messiah or an anointed one in Hebrew is mashiach משיח.
    The text tells of the death of a messiah, an anointed one.
    However, Christians, over the ages, were looking to read in everything in the Tanach as referring to Jesus, and so changed the word from a to the. That's what happened.
     
  13. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    I certainly have not read all of Baha'u'llah's writings but some of the stuff I have read is taken from what could be gleaned from the Bible and part would be easy to foresee by a spirit that has an overview of the world and knows the sorts of things that humanity was on the verge of doing and the directions it was on the verse of taking.
    But that is no help for you if you don't even think that we can be deceived by a spirit like that, a satan. That part of the Bible teaching has been got rid of and so any fulfilled prophecies of Baha'u'llah have to be from God.
     
  14. syo

    syo Well-Known Member

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    I don't know what more to say.

    But I have a question. How strong is the influence of the physical resurrection in the NT? This whole idea is like a thorn. o_O
     
  15. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Well-Known Member

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    The influence isn't much actually. What matters is the resurrection itself, whether it is spiritual or physical. For instance most Christians believe that the resurrection of Jesus is physical whereas JW's say it is spiritual, but neither has a noticeable effect on the basic belief structure. In both views, Jesus is still the messiah and his blood was sacrificed for mankind. The only affect it has is whether people will be resurrected to heavenly life or will still live on earth when resurrected.

    I don't see how the idea of the physical resurrection is like a thorn though. Mind elaborating?
     
  16. syo

    syo Well-Known Member

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    Didn't Paul say that if Jesus didn't resurrect everything would be vain???
     
  17. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    With the internal evidence there is no one claiming anything. It is just taking the documents, without the assumption that they were written after the Temple destruction and looking to see what the evidence shows about when they were written.
    What technology is available these days that was not available last century? All there is is sceptic assumption. It is not as if anything can be carbon dated to see when the original was written. As I said the old methods used no assumption either way, the new methods do.
    I am not a textual critic but I could point to Luke as the author of Luke gospel and Acts as a sequel. Luke was a travel companion of Paul. Luke wrote Acts up to the time they went to Rome. The assumption is that both Luke and Paul were killed in the Nero killing of Christians in 64AD. All this internal evidence gives a probably 50s 60s writing date for the Luke gospel and another internal evidence is that Luke claims there were other gospels written before his, so this puts the writing of gospels back even further.
    It can be assumed that internal evidence was planted to make it look as if there was an early writing of the gospels just to fool people. But I guess that is begging the question.

    I'm not ignoring the immediate context. Young woman for the immediate context and virgin when associated with the Isa 9 child. Part of the immediate context in the book of prophecies. The child, Divine Messiah, who was going to be in the region of Galilee and was going to be a sign that God is with us for the Jews who trusted God.
    It's there because I want it to be there. Proof of what I say is not possible.

    The agenda of seeing Hezekiah as the fulfilment of the Isa 9:6,7 prophecy required a misreading of verse 7 to ignore that it says that he would reign forever on David's throne. The names of the child in verse 6 are translated different ways by the Jews and hide the fact that the child is called Mighty God, Eternal Father, and to do that requires addition of words and phrases which are not in the original text.

    Before the Emmanuel prophecy God seems to have been calming Ahaz. After the prophecy when it became apparent that Ahaz was going to Assyria anyway, the sign seems to have been given of nasty things that would happen, so that Ahaz would see the truth what Isaiah had originally told him and wish that he had just trusted in the Lord.
    (This is an example of a prophecy given so that when it happens it is known that God knew all along and it encourages faith after the event even if it did not when the prophecy was first given)

    You don't want to forget about the things that are there which were probably not part of the Persian crucifixion (and yes,,"probably" means I have to guess things)
    Nails in hands and feet was a Roman method and I read the the usual method was tying in Persia.
    But I suppose the piercing of the hands and feet might be all there is in the Psalm to indicate a crucifixion (Roman). The other things are things that may happen at a crucifixion but are pretty vague and could happen in other contexts also. BUT they are things that are said to have happened at Jesus crucifixion along with the piercing of the hands and feet.
    Reading the Psalm it is hard to see how it could be a serious description of a crucifixion,,,,,,,,,,,,a cryptic one maybe.

    I suppose I look at things from my pov and that is the pov of a believer who did not need everything proven before I believed. The more I look at things (the same things you are looking at) these days, the more reason I can see for the gospel writers to include them in the gospels because of the context, and I am glad that I hung around long enough in the faith to be able to see these things better.
     
  18. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    There is a physical resurrection but the body is not going to be the same, it will be immortal and if Jesus is any example, able to do things that we cannot now do.
     
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  19. syo

    syo Well-Known Member

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    You mean we are granted new and advanced bodies?
     
  20. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Because a decomposed body cannot become recomposed.
    Also because there is no reason to believe stories that can never be verified.
    A story is not proof that what is in the story is true.

    There is no proof of the bodily resurrection so it makes more sense to believe it never happened.
    The only reason one would believe it happened is because they want to believe that, but that is not a good reason.
    Imo.
     
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