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Featured Fulfillment of Prophecy in the New Testament

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Israel Khan, Jun 3, 2020.

  1. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    It's still not "plain". Baha'is easily take Isaiah 9 to be about Baha'u'llah, because, they say, the government is on his shoulders. They only way for Christians to take it back from them is if Jesus does indeed return and sets up his throne.

    In Isaiah 7 the "plain" context isn't about a special child. All the kid has to do is get older. By the time he reaches a certain age the two Kings will be dead. What do you think about the "dual" fulfillment interpretation? I don't like it much, because if the first child isn't born of a virgin, then why would the second one?

    But who comes into Christianity knowing all these little details and contradictions. A Christian has already accepted the basic teachings of Christianity. Probably too many are just going to ignore all the difficult things. Maybe they'll hear a preacher/teacher go through some "proofs" that explain them in a good enough way to make sense to other Christians, then they'll leave it at that. At least you're here talking about it. You have something special to you in your beliefs about Jesus, but so Jews have something special in the things they believe God told them. And just like you don't accept the Baha'i or Islamic claims about how their prophets fulfilled things in the NT, Jews have good reasons not accept the Christian claims. For me, none of it seems "plain" as day.
     
  2. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    Yes, that "lower" nature thing is kind of saying the same thing... without believing and following God's teachings, a person is going to be sinful. With some Christians, they do believe that a person doesn't earn salvation, that is a free gift. But, the believer is then supposed to do good works. That's a little different than everybody is moving on into a spiritual place, and, depending on how good you were, you get to be closer to God. Other than contradicting the Christian belief, which I think is what is being taught in the NT, it sounds pretty good. It is fair to those that committed themselves to living for God. But, is there punishment and torment for the evil doers? Again, it would contradict the NT. Baha'is have said that it would be like being born crippled into this world. The evil doer is spiritually crippled in the next? But then, I wonder, how is it fair and just that the crippled person in this world was born that way?

    Yes, I've have heard some Baha'is say that a "true" believer would have recognized that Baha'u'llah was from God. So that must mean that anyone in another religion that hasn't become a Baha'i is blind to the truth?

    Yes, that weird middle ground where the "original" teachings of the prophet were true and from God. But then they got lost, corrupted and misinterpreted.
     
  3. truthseeker7

    truthseeker7 Member

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    but why
     
  4. Harel13

    Harel13 Am Yisrael Chai
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    I'm not sure what you mean by "originally". I'm sure biblical criticism enjoys claiming it has "definitive proof" that the text was not written by Daniel himself but was invented by later sages, to which I say: Nu, so what?

    In any case, a few Jewish approaches, as previously posted here and elsewhere in RF by @rosends:

    The L-rd's Anointed - Source Book

    The 70 weeks in Daniel 9
     
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  5. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    The difficulty I have with the Baha'i interpretation is that why did Jesus let himself die on the cross? Why not leave town and live to preach his message of "love" another day? If the NT gospels are for real, then his death is tied to his resurrection. He conquered death and Satan. But, the Baha'is don't believe he physically rose from the dead and that there is no real spirit-being called Satan. If it was a fiction story, still the climax of the story is the physical resurrection... since he lives, all people can live through him. Great mythical story. And if he didn't really rise from the dead... that's all it is... and Christians should not be pitied for believing Jesus rose from the dead when he really didn't, they should be called out as liars and frauds. And some people do that.

    But then again, we have the Baha'i middle ground. They can say "Yes, it's all true. We believe in the Bible and we believe in Jesus." and at the same time say, "But, the resurrection? It's symbolically true. It was a metaphor. He rose spiritually." I don't know... to me that makes it fiction. And can a fictional story save anybody? No, but a story that Christians believe is the truth and is the very Word of God can... at least in the minds of the believers. And that is what all us non-believers, and Baha'is, are saying... What Christians believe is the truth is all in their heads. It's all what people have invented.

    But then which religion cannot be looked at that way? And yet they all work to some degree in making people better and to get them to follow some laws and moral codes. And is that what religion is all about? In some ways, it seems so. And then, what difference does it make which "myth" people believe in?
     
  6. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    Who in the Baha'i Faith is not saved? And, if they are not, what happens to them? But, if they all are "saved", where do the most wicked and evil people go, and what happens to them?
     
  7. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg One Planet One People Please
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    What can I say to such a question?

    Maybe offer what Baha'u'llah longed to give us, if we had chosen to listen instead of the age old path of persecution and rejection and delayed acceptance

    “.... Know assuredly that just as thou firmly believest that the Word of God, exalted be His glory, endureth for ever, thou must, likewise, believe with undoubting faith that its meaning can never be exhausted. They who are its appointed interpreters, they whose hearts are the repositories of its secrets, are, however, the only ones who can comprehend its manifold wisdom. Whoso, while reading the Sacred Scriptures, is tempted to choose therefrom whatever may suit him with which to challenge the authority of the Representative of God among men, is, indeed, as one dead, though to outward seeming he may walk and converse with his neighbors, and share with them their food and their drink.
    Oh, would that the world could believe Me! Were all the things that lie enshrined within the heart of Bahá, and which the Lord, His God, the Lord of all names, hath taught Him, to be unveiled to mankind, every man on earth would be dumbfounded.... “

    Except, can you not see CG, that people still do not want to see what was enshrined within the heart of Baha!

    Yes is the answer, the Bab released all knowledge, there is naught but the veil of our own selves preventing us from knowing what all the meaning is. I ask ask CG in all fairness, if one has not accepted the Message, how would one even see one of the Truths offered, as does not an answer require recognition of the authority in which it was given?

    Regards Tony
     
  8. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    Brian2, Tony says that "all" scriptures talk about that day. Do they? I ask Baha'is all the time... Jesus returns after all the bad things happen. He doesn't return, die, and then the bad things continue to happen. What are some of the end time interpretations that you've heard that tell of what has to happen before Jesus returns? And do any have the tribulations continuing after Jesus has returned? Because, to me, things seem to be heading for the worst of the bad stuff. I don't see how they were fulfilled a hundred plus years ago.
     
  9. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    What? You can give me an answer and I can think about it and see if it makes sense or not. Lots of stuff makes sense in the Baha'i Faith... but not all of it. Like progressive revelation, like the "end-times" have already happened. Like Adam was a real, historical person and was a manifestation, that Abdul Baha's interpretation of the resurrection makes sense. That the Three Woes are Muhammad, The Bab and Baha'u'llah. That Ishmael, not Isaac, was taken to be sacrificed.

    I can understand why none of these would bother a Baha'i. But I doubt it is because they think it is a great answer or interpretation... it's probably like they don't really care that much about it. That's the Baha'i explanation and it's good enough for them. Kind of like the Christian thing where they say, "The Bible says it. I believe it. And that settles it."
     
  10. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg One Planet One People Please
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    I see there is layers of salvation and in this age it is collective, it is the salvation of Humanity as a whole. Abdul'baha wrote a Tablet of Salvation, it is yet to be translated, there is a section done as a provisional translation and you may like to read it in this blog

    Salvation: For One and All

    Personally it does not motivate me, as I see it is just the right thing to do, that is live one's life for the good of all. Try to. Find ways to give of yourself to help others, it is a daily challenge we can all participate in.

    A prayer CG, that one can choose to offer and I give it for you today.
    "O my God, the God of bounty and mercy! Thou art that King by Whose commanding word the whole creation hath been called into being; and Thou art that All-Bountiful One the doings of Whose servants have never hindered Him from showing forth His grace, nor have they frustrated the revelations of His bounty. Suffer this servant, I beseech Thee, to attain unto that which is the cause of his salvation in every world of Thy worlds. Thou art, verily, the Almighty, the Most Powerful, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise. – Baha’u’llah, Baha’i Prayers, p. 146."

    Regards Tony
     
  11. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    I looked at the links given. Earthquakes and dark days and meteor showers in another part of the world, years before 1844? And things like that continue to happen and the other one I always ask them... there will be wars and rumors of wars but that is not yet the end? Everybody has ways to fulfill prophecy, but it has the opposite effect sometimes... it makes believers look spiritually gullible.
     
  12. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    You have any quotes about what happens to the evil and wicked people?
     
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  13. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg One Planet One People Please
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    It is easy in an age of such progress to think that it has no cause but man's own mind. Up to the mid 1800's man progression was slow, one can ask themselves why all of a sudden in but 150 years, has man found such an advance in science?

    My doctor said 15 years ago I would have lost my eye, now I still have it.

    Do you see this as a valid proof of the Message of the Bab of the Qá'im? Baha'u'llah said the Bab released the remaining 25 letters of the 27 letters of knowledge and only 2 had been released up to that Message.

    That is what I was offering CG, there are many answers to me that I see because I see a truth in what was said by the Messenger.

    It will not be a proof or truth to others, it will be something said, easily forgotten, like a vapor in the desert. I know this as I have faced this within my own self and still do.

    Regards Tony
     
  14. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg One Planet One People Please
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    It is all about the state we choose to be in CG, we have discussed this quite a few times. Heaven and Hell are states of being. We are in those states in this life and when we die that state carries over as we traverse all the world's of God.

    So see a rock as the state of hell and Human as Heaven. What would you want to be in this world, a rock or a Human.

    If we grow no spiritual limbs here, we become a rock, if we do grow them we carry on with a level of comprehension that will enable us to see more of our next existance.

    ‘Abdu’l-Bahá has said that when human beings “become illuminated with the radiance of the sun of reality, and ennobled with all the virtues, they esteem this the greatest reward, and they know it to be the true paradise. In the same way they consider that the spiritual punishment…is to be subjected to the world of nature; to be veiled from God; to be brutal and ignorant; to fall into carnal lusts; to be absorbed in animal frailties; to be characterized with dark qualities…these are the greatest punishments and tortures…

    Regards Tony
     
  15. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    OK, but it is speculation that it is Isaiah being called in Isa 49 but interpretation that it is the Messiah, because the messiah is the one who does the things spoken of in the passage. A Messianic passage.

    The first person speaker does not have to be Isaiah. Do you see it as Isaiah speaking at the start of Isa 61 or 63?
    I don't need to insert Jesus, I'm really just trying to point out that it is a Messianic passage.

    Yes I go too far.

    Where is it said to be eternal?
    Law of necessity changes over time because of changed circumstances in society. It is only the spirit of the law that can be followed, and that spirit is love. Ask your Rabbi about it, isn't he the one who has to interpret the law for changed circumstances.
     
  16. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    Now, it is clear that Isaiah is being called because he is the one writing the book and referring to himself in 1st person. To add in the outside and unnamed character because of what you think his role is and what you think the text is speaking about is a whole lot of interpretation.


    It is Isaiah speaking at the beginning of Is. 61, yes. This has been a standard way of understanding the verse for a long, long time. Finding something else there is a recent innovation driven by need. In Is. 63, there are 2 first person's -- the opening quotes God speaking of himself in 1st person, and starting in verse 7, the prophet Isaiah speaks in first person as one who will recount the actions of God. Again, this is not a new understanding, but an old and standard one.



    the Torah is eternal, its covenants are eternal (verses available upon request) and it is the blueprint of our laws. Actual, real laws. Not a spirit of law, but law. We are forbidden to add to it or take away from it but we are also taught how to derive it in all its iterations, apply it and protect it. You are confusing the application and protection with any change in the terms of the underlying law. The rabbi applies and understands the variables. He does not interpret the law, itself but the situation which informs which law he applies and how. That law is unchanging. And don't worry, I don't have to ask anyone to confirm that. I can just look at the rabbi in the mirror.
     
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  17. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    I hope you mean spiritual death because we cannot he saved from physical death.
    I do not believe that Jesus was the only Manifestation of God who was sinless. All of them were sinless, according to God.

    I do not believe that Jesus’ sacrifice makes any other sacrifice not necessary. All the Manifestations of God made sacrifices; for example, Muhammad, the Bab and Baha’u’llah also made sacrifices that were very necessary for accomplishing God’s Purpose for humanity.

    I do not believe that Isaiah 53:10 applies to Jesus:

    “Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.”

    That cannot apply to Jesus because Jesus did not see His seed or prolong His days. I believe that applies to Baha’u’llah, as does the rest of Isaiah 53:

    Bahá’u’lláh did see his ‘seed’. He wrote a special document called the Book of the Covenant, in which he appointed his eldest son to be the Centre of his Faith after his own passing. This very event was also foretold in the prophecies of the Psalms that proclaim:“Also I will make him my first-born higher than the kings of the earth … and my covenant shall stand fast with him.” Psalms 89:27, 28

    The ‘first-born’ son of Bahá’u’lláh, was named ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, which means ‘the servant of Bahá’(‘u’lláh). Bahá’u’lláh appointed him as his own successor in his Will and Testament. He called ‘Abdu’l-Baháthe Centre of his Covenant.

    Bahá’u’lláh’s days were prolonged. He was born in 1817 and passed away in the Holy Land in 1892. In the last years of his life, Bahá’u’lláh was released from his prison cell. He came out of the prison-city of ‘Akká and walked on the sides of Mount Carmel. His followers came from afar to be with him, and to surround him with their love, fulfilling the words of the prayer of David spoken within a cave: “Bring my soul out of prison, that I may praise thy name: the righteous shall compass me about; for thou shalt deal bountifully with me.” Psalms 142:7.

    These events in the valley of ‘Akká with its strong fortress prison had been foreshadowed in Ecclesiastes 4:14: “For out of prison he cometh to reign; whereas also he that is born in his kingdom becometh poor.”

    Comments from: Thief in the Night
    In the Baha’i Faith good deeds and faith are both necessary to get to heaven. As you know, we do not believe there is anything for us to be saved from except our lower nature.
    I thought you knew that Baha’is do not believe there is anything to be saved from since we do not believe in original sin. So the only thing we need to be saved from is our lower material nature. I probably never posted this to you, but it is very important because it explains the significance of Jesus’ sacrifice:

    Question.—In verse 22 of chapter 15 of 1 Corinthians it is written: “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.” What is the meaning of these words?

    Answer.—Know that there are two natures in man: the physical nature and the spiritual nature. The physical nature is inherited from Adam, and the spiritual nature is inherited from the Reality of the Word of God, which is the spirituality of Christ. The physical nature is born of Adam, but the spiritual nature is born from the bounty of the Holy Spirit. The first is the source of all imperfection; the second is the source of all perfection.

    The Christ sacrificed Himself so that men might be freed from the imperfections of the physical nature and might become possessed of the virtues of the spiritual nature. This spiritual nature, which came into existence through the bounty of the Divine Reality, is the union of all perfections and appears through the breath of the Holy Spirit. It is the divine perfections; it is light, spirituality, guidance, exaltation, high aspiration, justice, love, grace, kindness to all, philanthropy, the essence of life. It is the reflection of the splendor of the Sun of Reality.

    The Christ is the central point of the Holy Spirit: He is born of the Holy Spirit; He is raised up by the Holy Spirit; He is the descendant of the Holy Spirit—that is to say, that the Reality of Christ does not descend from Adam; no, it is born of the Holy Spirit. Therefore, this verse in Corinthians, “As in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive,” means, according to this terminology, that Adam 1 is the father of man—that is to say, He is the cause of the physical life of mankind; His was the physical fatherhood. He is a living soul, but He is not the giver of spiritual life, whereas Christ is the cause of the spiritual life of man, and with regard to the spirit, His was the spiritual fatherhood. Adam is a living soul; Christ is a quickening spirit.

    This physical world of man is subject to the power of the lusts, and sin is the consequence of this power of the lusts, for it is not subject to the laws of justice and holiness. The body of man is a captive of nature; it will act in accordance with whatever nature orders. It is, therefore, certain that sins such as anger, jealousy, dispute, covetousness, avarice, ignorance, prejudice, hatred, pride and tyranny exist in the physical world. All these brutal qualities exist in the nature of man. A man who has not had a spiritual education is a brute. Like the savages of Africa, whose actions, habits and morals are purely sensual, they act according to the demands of nature to such a degree that they rend and eat one another. Thus it is evident that the physical world of man is a world of sin. In this physical world man is not distinguished from the animal.

    All sin comes from the demands of nature, and these demands, which arise from the physical qualities, are not sins with respect to the animals, while for man they are sin. The animal is the source of imperfections, such as anger, sensuality, jealousy, avarice, cruelty, pride: all these defects are found in animals but do not constitute sins. But in man they are sins.

    Adam is the cause of man’s physical life; but the Reality of Christ—that is to say, the Word of God—is the cause of spiritual life. It is “a quickening spirit,” meaning that all the imperfections which come from the requirements of the physical life of man are transformed into human perfections by the teachings and education of that spirit. Therefore, Christ was a quickening spirit, and the cause of life in all mankind.

    Adam was the cause of physical life, and as the physical world of man is the world of imperfections, and imperfections are the equivalent of death, Paul compared the physical imperfections to death.

    But the mass of the Christians believe that, as Adam ate of the forbidden tree, He sinned in that He disobeyed, and that the disastrous consequences of this disobedience have been transmitted as a heritage and have remained among His descendants. Hence Adam became the cause of the death of humanity. This explanation is unreasonable and evidently wrong, for it means that all men, even the Prophets and the Messengers of God, without committing any sin or fault, but simply because they are the posterity of Adam, have become without reason guilty sinners, and until the day of the sacrifice of Christ were held captive in hell in painful torment. This is far from the justice of God. If Adam was a sinner, what is the sin of Abraham? What is the fault of Isaac, or of Joseph? Of what is Moses guilty?

    But Christ, Who is the Word of God, sacrificed Himself. This has two meanings, an apparent and an esoteric meaning. The outward meaning is this: Christ’s intention was to represent and promote a Cause which was to educate the human world, to quicken the children of Adam, and to enlighten all mankind; and since to represent such a great Cause—a Cause which was antagonistic to all the people of the world and all the nations and kingdoms—meant that He would be killed and crucified, so Christ in proclaiming His mission sacrificed His life. He regarded the cross as a throne, the wound as a balm, the poison as honey and sugar. He arose to teach and educate men, and so He sacrificed Himself to give the spirit of life. He perished in body so as to quicken others by the spirit.

    The second meaning of sacrifice is this: Christ was like a seed, and this seed sacrificed its own form so that the tree might grow and develop. Although the form of the seed was destroyed, its reality became apparent in perfect majesty and beauty in the form of a tree.

    The position of Christ was that of absolute perfection; He made His divine perfections shine like the sun upon all believing souls, and the bounties of the light shone and radiated in the reality of men. This is why He says: “I am the bread which descended from heaven; whosoever shall eat of this bread will not die” 2 —that is to say, that whosoever shall partake of this divine food will attain unto eternal life: that is, every one who partakes of this bounty and receives these perfections will find eternal life, will obtain preexistent favors, will be freed from the darkness of error, and will be illuminated by the light of His guidance.

    The form of the seed was sacrificed for the tree, but its perfections, because of this sacrifice, became evident and apparent—the tree, the branches, the leaves and the blossoms being concealed in the seed. When the form of the seed was sacrificed, its perfections appeared in the perfect form of leaves, blossoms and fruits.

    Some Answered Questions, pp. 118-121

    29: EXPLANATION OF VERSE TWENTY-TWO, CHAPTER FIFTEEN, OF THE FIRST EPISTLE OF ST. PAUL TO THE CORINTHIANS
     
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  18. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    Were people ready for more scientific knowledge? Even now, are we? If God and his messenger were going to release anything first, why not more desire and ability to be more spiritual? But then again... maybe God didn't release it with The Bab.
    The scientific revolution was the emergence of modern science during the early modern period, when developments in mathematics, physics, astronomy, biology (including human anatomy), and chemistry transformed societal views about nature. The scientific revolution began in Europe toward the end of the Renaissance period, and continued through the late 18th century, influencing the intellectual social movement known as the Enlightenment. While its dates are disputed, the publication in 1543 of Nicolaus Copernicus ‘s De revolutionibus orbium coelestium (On the Revolutions of the Heavenly Spheres) is often cited as marking the beginning of the scientific revolution.
    I'm sure many great advancements happened during and after 1844, but things were already in motion. But take credit for it if you want.
     
  19. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    Except there's so many degrees of being good or evil. So the most wicked are like a rock? And what do they have to, or what can they do as a rock, to advance to a higher level? Then what about an average person? They aren't that bad, but they aren't that good either? They only develop maybe the beginnings of spiritual limbs?
     
  20. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    As you know, Jews believe that the Mosaic Covenant is everlasting, and they have Torah scriptures to back up their beliefs… So what gives?

    As I said, I believe there is an everlasting covenant God made with mankind never to leave man alone without sending a Messenger, but each time a new Messenger comes he make a new covenant with His followers.
    Here is an excerpt from a Baha'iTeachings.org article that explains what the eternal (everlasting) covenant is and how it is still in force today. I suggest you read the whole article by clicking on the link below.

    “The overall covenant God made with His followers in Judaism, known to Jews as the Mosaic Covenant, and to Christians as the Old Covenant, put forth the stipulation of the oneness of God – “Thou shalt have no other gods before me” (Exodus 20:2) – as the primary law of the Ten Commandments. In exchange for following those principles, God promised that he would never leave His followers without guidance:

    Be strong and of a good courage, fear not, nor be afraid … for the Lord thy God, he it is that doth go with thee; he will not fail thee, nor forsake thee.Deuteronomy 31:6.

    This eternal covenant between God and humanity, the Baha’i teachings say, remains in force today. The Creator has bestowed bounties on us all, and in return asks us to recognize His prophets and messengers and abide by their laws and spiritual principles. The Baha’i teachings joyously celebrate that covenant:”


    How to Understand the Baha’i Covenant
     
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