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Featured Fulfillment of Prophecy in the New Testament

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Israel Khan, Jun 3, 2020.

  1. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    Well if I was Isaiah or David or Samuel for example I would be a Jew in my beliefs (as well as genetically) but I would not belong to Judaism. Iows Judaism seems to be an interpretation that is not essential to be a Jew.

    But it does look that way in Daniel 26

    Thank you.
     
  2. Harel13

    Harel13 Am Yisrael Chai
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    I see. It seems to me that you're one of those people who think that Judaism is a post-exile invention. Traditional Judaism disagrees with the notion.
    There's a difference between saying that you think verse X says something and saying that the rabbis (and Jews in general) also thought the same thing that you do (perhaps I should've added that bit to my earlier quote).
     
  3. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    If the sacrifice of Jesus the Christ is eternal and our path to salvation then why would Baha'u'llah have to come to be in chains for us and why does Baha'i tell us that the other dispensations have been abrogated?
     
  4. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    The Hebrew scriptures actually tell us of the New Covenant and so in theory the Jews await it and it's bringer, but some Jews say the New Covenant is not going to happen,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,even if their scripture tell them it is really going to be given. The Jews seem to think that they have all they need in the scriptures. They do not realise they need to be born again.
    The Muslim scriptures tell them that Mohammad is the the final prophet according to them.
    Christians also look to their scriptures and realise Jesus is it and He will return to finish things up in the world and judge us and rule as King over God's Kingdom which is brought to earth.
    What is so special about Baha'u'llah that I should know that He is a Messenger from God when he disagrees with my scriptures?
     
  5. rational experiences

    rational experiences Well-Known Member

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    The written after the fact reasoning was written by humans in the moment of those humans and living as the book writer in person. Not afterwards.

    Afterwards is owned by natural conditions, that own no preaching about causation, which is just scientific philosophical relativity for scientists.

    Earth O as a body is natural first, its heavenly gases natural first and origin, so was the male self before he spoke stories or theories in the sciences.

    What science argues today, are self present but use information as if self is not present...and then even ignores that self is only present due to sperm and an ovary...then his biology reasoning falsely contends with that cellular small information ideal with all other science forms of his studies.

    Which does not infer nor include the fact that those 2 small bodies of information grew into a human baby who grew into the adult science self, liar.

    Science in modern day life totally ignored the relativity of the Jesus Christ teachings.

    As science of the Satanic occult alchemy had also been outlawed, the common return and practices always brought about new male reasoning and theorising against the self destructive UFO occult Nature of the alchemist sciences.

    Why it was reasoned.

    And it is only self DNA/genetic ownership that is the storyteller self...not anyone else.

    The name in each country of the science attack already owns in male self presence a variation to Genetics and DNA, hence always quotes his conscious idealisation in self present body/chemical and DNA life form.

    Which is not relevant any other ideal of self...it is just self wisdom in the sciences.

    Jesus was in fact a quoted GOD LAW O about how the probability calculation said that the life of sacrifice saved....meaning all life, for we no longer live as a human perfection without any flaw....which means beauty and also health in any condition.

    So one human is ugly, another is beautiful, one contradicts the other...what was relatively taught in biological Genetic medical healer advice. So the cause was stated to be owned by the DNA genetics in Jerusalem, historically the reason for that advice...Muslim DNA males overtook and rebuilt and reutilised the Temple and pyramid ownership sciences....so the worst affected were in Jerusalem as the advice said.

    Our family DNA said the Jews were the worst life affected/sacrificed.

    So they proclaimed that their advice was correct.

    Rome however in the re use of the Temple science was also attacked...so the agreement was an equal relative DNA advice. Why the name Jesus was that agreement.

    For the name Zeus..............Zeus (British English / zj uː s /, North American English / z uː s / ; Ancient Greek : Ζεύς, Zeús [zdeǔ̯s]) is the sky and thunder god in ancient Greek religion, who rules as king of the gods of Mount Olympus

    Je determined the reference to Jerusalem....so instead of Zeus, it was altered to a communal agreed reference Je sus. The very reason. To say it was communal.

    Which stated that historically the O God planet inherited a spatial womb attack on human life, as the agreed statement what was personally witnessed. As an event.

    You cannot use that event of witness today for any science reason, it would own no common logic. History is history and it is lived historically in the moment.

    2012 said it would be the End of the return sacrifice of life and witnessing the IMAGE of Jesus/male life gone/removed in the cloud cause....ground water mass loss.

    We never were taught that 2012 meant the returned sacrifice of life...would make no common sense when spatial conditions own natural cooling/evolution.

    Science in nuclear 2012 power plant model, however did re introduce the sacrifice of our human life....why the mind today is totally confused about being taught relative future belief about stopping attack causes/radiation sciences....to the event not occurring. To life being re sacrificed, as if we returned in natural evolution history, had evolution removed and living a virtual reality again.

    Time shifting is how it is taught today....as if Earth is re living ancient human history...when you cannot personally shift in time....the Earth evolution however can...by its losses.
     
  6. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    Regarding post 514, maybe you should be a politician, as you know how avoid giving a straight answer.
    Thanks for the chat.
     
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  7. rational experiences

    rational experiences Well-Known Member

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    Humans being born again, means by human sex, and not any other reasoning.

    To be saved/healed in DNA genetics from one history to another means that if radiation occult science was stopped the mutated DNA sickness owned in that life....eventually would heal...and when you are reborn in a future that DNA would no longer be sick or mutated.

    How biological medical Healer sciences was taught which was never occult nuclear science or its purposes....where the argument always stood.

    Science owns a multi variable discussion of the relevance of being informed.

    For since when does nuclear science use our bio life body for an energy resource function involving the body mass/energy of O God the Earth? Unless in their data/figures they know that a portion of the human life body cell health is going to be destroyed and removed....in the belief of a machine reacting?

    Makes no other form of common sense logic to be inferring self presence to a stone planet energy O mass science named God.
     
  8. Harel13

    Harel13 Am Yisrael Chai
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    Here, I'll show you how Jews see the verse. It says:
    "And after the threescore and two weeks shall an anointed one be cut off, and be no more; and the people of a prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; but his end shall be with a flood; and unto the end of the war desolations are determined."
    It says "an anointed one", not "the anointed one" or "the Messiah" (as some Christian translations prefer to use whenever they translate verses they think refer to Jesus). On this thread there have been posted links to a number of Jewish interpretations of the verse, but none of those include the belief that this verse involves the death of the one true Messiah ben David. That's simply reading in something that isn't there.
     
  9. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    Saved from the death that our sins bring on us.

    Jesus was sent because He was the only one who could live a sinless life and be a spotless sacrifice as a sin offering as Isa 53:10 tells us He would be. So He offered Himself to set us free from bondage to sin and it's consequences. Jesus sacrifice makes any other sacrifice not necessary as Baha'u'llah seems to say.

    I Christianity good deeds are a consequence of our faith and are not a means of salvation.

    Believe that God sent the Messengers of the past and believe the messages they brought (the messages according to Baha'i) but if the dispensation is abrogated, there is no benefit from their message or deeds and so you cannot be saved through the blood of Christ. Is that what you mean?
     
  10. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg One Planet One People Please
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    It is important to not that it is only by God's grace that anyone is saved.

    This is fundamental to Baha'i as well.

    There is a two fold obligation on accepting the Messengers, first is Faith and then living the life.

    It is God that gives Faith and takes it away and no one knows their end.
    The question is indeed the quandary we face. What is abrogated is the Laws as these are renewed in each Dispensation. This is explained in detail in the Kitab-i-Iqan.

    It shows us that we do not have to reject God because of the veil on Names. God is seen in all Names and all the Messengers.

    Regards Tony
     
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  11. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg One Planet One People Please
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    I say it's special if all the scriptures talk about such a day and then a Message is given saying it is bringing in that day.

    The quandary is we all get to consider if it is special or if it is not.

    I can say each day the world fulfill more and more of what is already foretold in the Baha'i Writings, uncannily in fact.

    As such I, hope for you your safety and happiness.

    Regards Tony
     
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  12. rational experiences

    rational experiences Well-Known Member

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    The Bible self warning to living humans as they lived with science doing trans mutation of stone mass into the gain of gold says that the stone remained present and in presence whilst it was transported into a new fusion of mass, just a conversion.

    How that affects the science mentality today is proven to have affected it with non realistic advice.

    Sodom and Gomorrah was said to have existed being caused to sexual changes being the basis of any living being...their sexual self is origin and the purpose of all conscious ability to think and relate information through psyche.

    Science said never infer to self being a creator male entity or female in science, as updated conscious awareness.

    Not that the past was wrong....how the conscious expression about self creating was wrong...and that organization was a variable amongst other organizations and it belonged historically to the male holy selves, biologists in medical healer science.

    Not God theism in Genetics Genesis....real biologists in medical practice.

    What you are all wrong about.

    o the ovary is incepted with sperm, change is inferred by the male Creator awareness to force change that body, to make it less, but then adding another body into it increased its Creator ability.

    And imposed that reasoning to God the stone body history with given radiation UFO mass....but that was a ONE of event.

    So historically they would have claimed extra energy was given to God, yet God rationally owned a converted mass that equalled its same mass...MASS, natural.

    Today such statements as I know cosmic radiation background, yes it is cosmic radiation background in its naturally owned presence. What are you studying it for?

    Being science no longer owning anyone to challenge them, question their authentic reasoning to reason, to own information to then force what they claim is relative in natural to be forcibly changed.

    For if you first claim I am self first, I can think as that self first as a natural thinker, yet take natural thinking another step to machine and then reaction, then what you first thought is then changed.

    Science should ask itself what is cosmic radiation back ground changed?

    As being relative to relativity, thinking constantly for change.

    2012 END was never relevant in modern day science, so they stopped using biblical probabilities as an updated occult organization...for it no longer was relative to idealising occult reasoning.

    Therefore everyone should ask, who then is trying to impose that we move back in time as life to a history that was already lived on Earth in much higher and eviler living conditions of suffering? Such as plagues etc. and a commentary of Earth incoming natural disasters and cosmological attacking bodies?

    As a huge list from the year 0AD to the Year 2020 to be relived as a theme....we travelled back in time by our time machine converter? For that is what you own a machine that science today says shifts time.
     
  13. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Well-Known Member

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    Well that is evidently not true as people get a lot of wisdom out of it. I can say that from personal experience. Plus it has literary and creative value, such as the creativity in writing the book of Revelation. People learn a lot about Koine Greek from them. Are you sure you don't mean "no value" in terms of something specific?
     
  14. rational experiences

    rational experiences Well-Known Member

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    Everyone on Earth today would say that if they believe in GOD the stone quotes about changing and giving GOD the one body names for fusion/fission change, then he did. For he did not invent modern day science power plant as based on the Temple pyramid Jesus themes.

    Yet they would say look how harmed and abominated life has become by the changing human mentality in self presence and self express SION, and sexual behaviour changes by the multitude of newly expressed human emotive behaviours and sexual being in relationship ideals.

    Marriage of 2 natural human being parents, parents for everyone on Earth with GOD the body stone face/fusion...in the sight of GOD One is our human Nature married...to see the children changing into the Sodom and Gomorrah theme of the cities of GOD...meaning nations of Earth fusion of all jewels, EL fusion crystalline powers changing.

    How it was taught as relative that when 2 fallen angels change on the ground face...then the warning signs of the angels have arrived....and then the cities of GOD will be destroyed, which are in fact the cities of look a like human cities embedded in the body of stone mountains...as I was taught look at the stone facure that looks like it has buildings embedded in the structures of mountains.

    Photos of which I have posted for human evidence against their own self destruction....for we are about the timed review of living when life gets destroyed...as human reasoning to PI O and also O PHI quotes about the falling of the spirits of GOD O by gas or spirit mass removal out of above us in the Heavenly realms and below us, in gain of the removal SIN..sink holes.

    As I personally do not wish my family to own this human science occult UFO cause...then have a true think about why you discuss this God science occult relativity teaching, for self idealism of why you should not support occult technologies.
     
  15. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Well-Known Member

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    What is the internal evidence besides someone claiming such? We must avoid circular reasoning, saying that a book is true because it says it is true, otherwise we would accept anything. When it comes to ancient methods, they did not have the technology to date items and determine whether information was reliable or not, so they had to use tradition and word of mouth, which is understandable. These days we have technology and methods that can actually date items and information, which makes our methods superior.

    One cannot determine whether the gospels are lies though. We can only come to most likely conclusions based on information we have. One shouldn't accept claims that people make though without evidence in this day and age, so there has to be outside evidence to show that the gospels are true. Otherwise we might as well believe anything we wish. We need a consistent standard.

    You also haven't demonstrated which method is more reliable. You are just making statements about others without showing how they come to their conclusions. Please do so.

    The supernatural cannot be taken into account because by definition those events would not be able to be examined as they don't follow natural processes. If we had to take the supernatural into account we would come to infinite possibilities because there is no standard to examine anything on. In addition there is no proof of miracles that can be examined, so claiming the supernatural is pointless.

    Please show this evidence that you keep speaking of. And bare in mind that you cannot use the prophecies themselves, except what they say, because that would be circular reasoning.



    It is there because you wish it to be. You are proof texting and ignoring the immediate context.


    OK. Please demonstrate that they intentionally changed the understanding of verses to suit their agenda?



    Yet Isaiah 7 is about giving Ahaz hope? That doesn't seem to match what you are saying.



    Emphasis on "probably". And yes I do want to say that the psalmist possibly took the idea of crucifixion from a contemporary source, if that is indeed what the Psalmist was talking about. And no, that in itself would not eliminate it from being prophetic about Jesus.



    Just a note, we are all skeptical. You are a skeptical of other religions for instance. Being a skeptic is something we should all strive to be, but skeptic and skeptical are two words meaning two different things.

    I contend with you on these matters because you aren't providing explanations that demonstrate that your interpretation of things is the only way. You aren't eliminating the possibility that the gospels could have taken bits and pieces out of context. The OT texts that you are using aren't explicitly stating your conclusions and on further examination the context doesn't match. You have to rely on assumptions and eisegesis rather than exegesis to come to your conclusions, which is the reason why many OT scriptures do not come to your conclusions when examined in isolation from the NT claims. You are reading into the text that which is not obviously there.
     
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  16. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, my mistake, it was Heb 13:20

    Heb 13:20 Now may the God of peace, who through the blood of the eternal covenant brought back from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great Shepherd of the sheep,

    The Mosaic Covenant was not meant to be everlasting, it was till the coming of the New Covenant. (Jer 31:31-34 etc) It is this New Covenant which is everlasting. There was nothing in the Mosaic Covenant concerning the promised Christ Jesus even if Moses did say that a prophet like him (Moses) would come and the people should listen to him.
    Adam did not bring in a Covenant. God made a Covenant'
    God made a covenant with Noah that He would never again destroy all life on earth with a flood and it was an unconditional Covenant and an everlasting Covenant. (Gen 9:8-17)
    God made a Covenant with Abraham to make him fertile and the father of nations and that He would give Abraham and his descendants the land of Canaan. It was a Covenant that was to endure through all of Abraham's descendants and was conditional on Abraham and his male descendants being circumcised. Ishmael was to father 12 tribal heads who would become a great nation. It was through Isaac/son of Sarah that the enduring covenant of being their God and giving them Canaan was to go through. (No doubt this is one of the sticking points between Jews and Islam which says the Jews corrupted the scriptures about this)
    (See Genesis 17) There is nothing about Moses in this covenant.
    Abdul got things wrong.

    The Bible tells us what the Covenants said and the Noahic, Abrahamic and Mosaic Covenants still stand for those under them,,,,,,,,,(and all are under the Noahic covenant.
    I don't know where you get your everlasting covenant from but I am telling what the Bible says and that is also what you supposedly believe.

    Yes the gentiles is everyone else in the world and these are the ones Jesus calls also since he is the one whom God would use to restore and bring back Israel and save the gentiles (Isa 49:1-6)
     
  17. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    Jesus was promising the Advocate who is the Holy Spirit in John 14:26 to His disciples of the day and saying that this Advocate would remind them of what He had told them.
    John 15:26 tells us that the Advocate is the Spirit of Truth.
    When read together we see that the Spirit of Truth was promised to Jesus disciples of His day and would remind them of what He would told them and would testify about Jesus.

    Peter said that Pentecost was what the prophet Joel spoke of (Acts 2:16) and that also means that Pentecost was in the last days. It also says other things that will happen before the great and glorious day of the Lord comes.
    And really I don't think you could say that Baha'u'llah was responsible for events that happened a long time before he came. You could say that they happened in the lead up to the great and glorious day of the Lord.
    But a meteor shower the earth going dark in one part for a day and a big earth quake are really not earth shattering things. Things like that do happen.

    One or 2 would be fine, not a whole book of them.

    So Jesus words become part of the history of God's religions and Messengers when they are deemed to be abrogated because they part of the dispensation of Jesus for His dispensation only. That sort of makes the statement of Jesus about His words not passing away, irrelevant and muted.

    Examples of parts of the Bible which are denied and replaced by the teachings of Baha'u'llah and Abdul-Baha are written about in this post. Eg John 14:26, John 15:26. You deny that the Spirit of Truth is the Holy Spirit that was given at Pentecost.
    Another might be John 14:3 where Jesus promises to return and Acts 1:9-11 where Baha'i denies that the same Jesus will come back in the same way the disciples saw Him go into heaven.
    I could go on for a while with examples if you like.
    How about Luke 1:32 where it is said that Jesus is the one to sit on the throne of David forever as in Isa 9:6-7?
    How about Acts 8:26-40 where Isa 53 is shown to be a prophecy about Jesus? etc etc
     
  18. Vouthon

    Vouthon Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
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    In context, using modern biblical criticism, I think it originally referred to the martyrdom of Onias III during the Maccabean Revolt:


    Onias III - Wikipedia


    Onias III (Hebrew: חוֹנִיּוֹ‎ Ḥōniyyō), son of Simon II, was High Priest during the Second Temple period of Judaism. He is described in scriptures as a pious man who opposed the Hellenization of Judea.[1]

    According to II Macc. iv. 26, Menelaus was not an Aaronite, but brother of Simon and thus also a Benjaminite. When Menelaus removed some vessels from the Temple to curry favor with the Syrian nobles of the Seleucid Empire, Onias accused him publicly and then fled to the asylum of Daphne, near Antioch, where Menelaus, aided by the royal governor Andronicus, had him secretly assassinated, in defiance of justice and of his oath. The murdered priest was deeply mourned by both Jews and Greeks, and the king also, on his return, wept for him and sentenced Andronicus to death.[4]

    The passages in Daniel 8:10-11 ("casting down some of the host and stars...the prince of the host"), 9:26 ("shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself") and 11:22 ("...and shall be broken; yea, also the prince of the covenant") are generally referred to the murder of Onias.[5][6]
     
  19. syo

    syo Well-Known Member

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    Yes, there is something specific. I have a problem with the literal resurrection. I understand the spiritual resurrection, BUT in the nt it seems the resurection is of the flesh. In orthodox christianity at least, they thing the flesh body will rise again and they say it's written in the nt. How can I say this is value???
     
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  20. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    None of these kings were good guys...
    Ahaz assumed the throne of Judah at the age of 20 or 25. Sometime later his kingdom was invaded by Pekah, king of Israel, and Rezin, king of Syria, in an effort to force him into an alliance with them against the powerful state of Assyria. Acting against the counsel of the prophet Isaiah, Ahaz appealed for aid to Tiglath-pileser III, king of Assyria, to repel the invaders. Assyria defeated Syria and Israel, and Ahaz presented himself as a vassal to the Assyrian king. Not only was Judah’s political situation unimproved but Assyria exacted a heavy tribute and Assyrian gods were introduced into the Temple at Jerusalem.​
    And I'm sure if the ancient Assyrian Empire can be equated with Persia. It looks, if anything, Assyria might have conquered the area.
    What ever really happened with the alleged "resurrection" of Jesus, who knows. But the gospel writers make it clear that they claim to have seen him alive.
    Acts 1:1 I wrote about all that Jesus began to do and to teach 2 until the day he was taken up to heaven, after giving instructions through the Holy Spirit to the apostles he had chosen. 3 After his suffering, he presented himself to them and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive.

    Luke 24:36 Jesus himself stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.”
    37 They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost.
    38 He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds?
    39 Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.” ​

    So I take it that the "Qá'im" has revealed the other 69 meanings?
     
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