Featured Fulfillment of Prophecy in the New Testament

Eish... I should have remembered that.

Yeah, that was the first time I knew about it as well. I just looked it up to debunk the guy's argument who started the thread.

 

Awesome! That thread is as ridiculous as the one @Harel13 and I were a part of.

FLIP! I get upset just reading that 2018 thread!

Tumah had a good argument there and stuck to his guns.

 

Paul's context here is that one isn't a child of God just because he is a Jew, which is the point of Romans. And he makes a good point. Yes, the Jews being among the nations were the reason God's Name was being blasphemed, as they said that they belonged to him, but it seemed as if he wasn't protecting them. This is spoken about from Ezekiel 36:16 - 23. From verse 16 God is actually saying that the reason they are in the nations is because they didn't follow the law (they committed idolatry). So they don't follow the law, God kicks them out, them having been kicked out blasphemes his name. So the point is proven that just because one is a Jew, does not mean that they are in good standing with God, and just because they know the law, that doesn't mean that they are its gatekeepers either, as often their ancestors had the law, but were often punished for not keeping it. And for God to exile a people or to get them killed shows his disapproval of them, so the wrong doers might as well not be Jews. Isaiah chapter one pretty much lays out that just because people are Jews, doesn't mean that God approves of them, which means that spirituality is what counts.

Yeah, I don't think Paul's interpretation of Deuteronomy 30:12-13 is what was originally intended, as it is referring to the Torah. I think that he is substituting the Law in Deuteronomy for Jesus Christ, who he previously says is the end of the Law and in another book (if not Romans itself) says that the law is the Law of the Christ. The verse he quotes is with regards to fetching the law to bring it to the people in its original context. So by substituting the law for Christ, he is talking about bringing christ from above or from the dead. (which is the grave, and the Jonah type and shadow that Jesus mentions,3 days in the grave in which the sea is the grave, sea is mentioned in deuteronomy 30). This is another type and shadow that he is using, saying that the law is a symbol for Christ. The flaw in the symbolism though is that the Deuteronomy text isn't saying under the sea, which would symbolise the grave, but other side of the sea, which means a foreign land across the sea.

Another type and shadow.

Genesis 15:6: Yes, it is about Abrahams descendents, but he had to have faith that such a thing would be fulfilled. Abrahams whole life course in the Bible is about him leaving his home and travelling out of sheer faith rather than evidence. In his own lifetime he was promised he would have many descendent's, followed God because of his faith without seeing much of the promises made to him fulfilled. He just had faith in that promise and God counted it as righteous which proves that faith alone works. To me though it seems that faith alone is being proven here with regards to faith vs evidence, not faith vs law.

Genesis 12:3: Here Paul is seeing that the Gentiles would be blessed by the seed of Abraham (who is Christ in his mind). The thing is that the Genesis verse doesn't say HOW the nations will be blessed which leaves that part open ended for interpretation. The blessing goes through various people who had faith as well which proves his point. It goes through Isaac and not Ishmael and goes through Jacob, not Esau who rejected the birthright. Also there is a misconception that Paul believes in faith alone. Romans 6:15-23 shows this. He is saying that one believes first and then that faith causes them to do what is good. Not having works would show that a person is a slave to sin and not righteousness. The works reveal that the law is written on a persons heart.

Deuteronomy 27:26: Paul has a point. That curse only applied to Jews under the law. That law did not apply to gentiles therefore they never suffered the curses. Deuteronomy 28 mentions the curses. So if a Jew becomes a Christian they are then free from the Mosaic law which is under the Israelite covenant, and under the law of the Christ, in which disobedience is destruction which is mentioned in revelations and other NT books.

And yeah, the whole nation would be justified by keeping the Torah. Paul's case is that that is all fine and good, but the problem is that the nation cannot keep the Torah, hence it becomes useless for salvation. Which is why the Jews are exiled from their land. Hence they suffer curses as a nation. Those who keep the law in their hearts is what matters under the Law of the Christ which is why Christians will be saved and all that.



So, this was a lot of reading and I am struggling to concentrate (haven't discussed scriptures in ages). So summary and what I think is the real problem here:

- Paul isn't misquoting text here. What he is doing is saying that Torah symbolises (types and shadows) something else in certain cases. So he isn't rejecting the original meaning but saying that there is a hidden meaning to them.
- He does make certain valid points in my mind.

- The real problem here is that one cannot prove whether his interpretation is the original intention of the author or not and anybody can do a similar thing with any book. So his interpretation of the OT is unverifiable.
- He could have made it all of it up, even though his interpretation is consistent.
- One would never come to his interpretations by reading the OT alone which invalidates that these verses would work as prophecy as one could make predictions using them.

I had to delete some of @Rival's posts to be able to post as there was too much wording.

p.s. should i prep a shield for the backlash?

 

An interesting point about Luke 4 that @BilliardsBall mentioned.

Here Jesus quotes Isaiah 61.

Verse 1 says that "The Spirit of the LORD God is upon me because the LORD has anointed me." But then the person speaking is revealed to be God himself in verse 8: "For I, the LORD, love justice". Am I reading it wrong?

 

Yes. That is what I think as well.

He seems to be doing the same thing with the OT that modern Doomsday religions are doing with the OT.

For instance the JW's interpret OT scriptures as applying to them to support their credibility:

True Worship Expands Worldwide — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

"
16 Each year as a result of the spiritual building program, hundreds of thousands of “foreigners” begin to associate with Jehovah’s organization, and the way is open for still more. Jehovah says: “Your gates will actually be kept open constantly; they will not be closed even by day or by night, in order to bring to you the resources of the nations, and their kings will be taking the lead.” (Isaiah 60:11) Who, though, are the “kings” taking the lead in bringing the resources of the nations to Zion? In ancient times Jehovah moved the hearts of certain rulers to “minister to” Zion. Cyrus, for example, took the initiative in sending the Jews back to Jerusalem to rebuild the temple. Later, Artaxerxes contributed resources and sent Nehemiah to rebuild the walls of Jerusalem. (Ezra 1:2, 3; Nehemiah 2:1-8) Truly “a king’s heart is as streams of water in the hand of Jehovah.” (Proverbs 21:1) Our God can move even powerful rulers to act in harmony with his will.

17 In modern times many “kings,” or secular authorities, have tried to close the “gates” of Jehovah’s organization. However, others have ministered to Zion by making decisions that helped to keep those “gates” open. (Romans 13:4) In 1919, secular authorities released Joseph F. Rutherford and his companions from unjust imprisonment. (Revelation 11:13) Human governments “swallowed up” the flood of persecution unleashed by Satan after his fall from heaven. (Revelation 12:16) Some governments have promoted religious tolerance, sometimes specifically in behalf of Jehovah’s Witnesses. This kind of ministering has made it easier for crowds of meek ones to pass through the open “gates” into Jehovah’s organization. And what of the opposers who try to close those “gates”? They will never succeed. Of them, Jehovah says: “Any nation and any kingdom that will not serve you will perish; and the nations themselves will without fail come to devastation.” (Isaiah 60:12) All who fight against God’s “woman”—be they individuals or organizations—will perish in the coming war of Armageddon at the latest.—Revelation 16:14, 16."

 

Another one:

The Rival Kings Enter the 20th Century — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

‘THE DISGUSTING THING IS PUT IN PLACE’

23. What was “the disgusting thing” in the first century?

23 When the end of the second world war was in sight, another development occurred, just as God’s angel had foretold. “They will certainly put in place the disgusting thing that is causing desolation.” (Daniel 11:31b) Jesus had also spoken of “the disgusting thing.” In the first century, it proved to be the Roman army that came to Jerusalem in 66 C.E. to put down Jewish rebellion.*—Matthew 24:15; Daniel 9:27.

24, 25. (a) What is “the disgusting thing” in modern times? (b) When and how was ‘the disgusting thing put in place’?

24 What “disgusting thing” has been “put in place” in modern times? Apparently, it is a “disgusting” counterfeit of God’s Kingdom. This was the League of Nations, the scarlet-colored wild beast that went into the abyss, or ceased to exist as a world-peace organization, when World War II erupted. (Revelation 17:8) “The wild beast,” however, was “to ascend out of the abyss.” This it did when the United Nations, with 50 member nations including the former Soviet Union, was established on October 24, 1945. Thus “the disgusting thing” foretold by the angel—the United Nations—was put in place.