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Featured Fulfillment of Prophecy in the New Testament

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Israel Khan, Jun 3, 2020.

  1. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Well-Known Member

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    Eish... I should have remembered that.

    Yeah, that was the first time I knew about it as well. I just looked it up to debunk the guy's argument who started the thread.
     
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  2. Rival

    Rival Ankh, Wedja, Seneb
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    You mean like this?

    Who are the real Children of Israel?
     
  3. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Well-Known Member

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    Awesome! That thread is as ridiculous as the one @Harel13 and I were a part of.

    FLIP! I get upset just reading that 2018 thread!

    Tumah had a good argument there and stuck to his guns.
     
    #243 Israel Khan, Jun 5, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2020
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  4. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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  5. Harel13

    Harel13 Nin-Jew Master
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    A pretty long break.
     
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  6. Rival

    Rival Ankh, Wedja, Seneb
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    No-one knows what happened to Rav Tumah :(
     
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  7. Harel13

    Harel13 Nin-Jew Master
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    You know he's not a rabbi, right? Isn't that his signature?
     
  8. Rival

    Rival Ankh, Wedja, Seneb
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    I do. I was being dramatic based on how we all seem to think of him. Someone called him that before on here.
     
  9. Harel13

    Harel13 Nin-Jew Master
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    You know that in Hebrew, Rav Tumah means "full of impurity"?
     
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  10. Rival

    Rival Ankh, Wedja, Seneb
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    Hey, he chose his name. Now this is what he gets! :p Idk why he chose 'tumah' but there you go. He once said 'tahara' sounded too mystical iirc.
     
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  11. Harel13

    Harel13 Nin-Jew Master
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    Having once more derailed IK's thread, @Rival, how about getting to Paul?
     
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  12. Rival

    Rival Ankh, Wedja, Seneb
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    I may get to some more but I am so hungry and tried of Paul,

    1.

    Paul here goes on a diatribe as usual and in context,

    Romans 2:17-24,

    Indeed you are called a Jew, and rest on the law, and make your boast in God, 18 and know His will, and approve the things that are excellent, being instructed out of the law, 19 and are confident that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness, 20 an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, having the form of knowledge and truth in the law. 21 You, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself? You who preach that a man should not steal, do you steal? 22 You who say, “Do not commit adultery,” do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? 23 You who make your boast in the law, do you dishonour God through breaking the law? 24 For “the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you,” as it is written.


    He pretend quotes Isaiah 52:5


    "And now, what have I here," says the Lord, "that My people has been taken for nothing. His rulers boast," says the Lord, "and constantly all day My name is blasphemed.


    And Ezekiel 36:22,


    Therefore, say to the house of Israel; So says the Lord God: Not for your sake do I do this, O house of Israel, but for My Holy Name, which you have profaned among the nations to which they have come.


    Paul is just using this as a stick with which he can bash the Jews; what this verse in Ezekiel appears to be saying is in fact the opposite of what Paul wants – G-d’s Holy Name has been blasphemed because the Israelites are among the nations and G-d is therefore going to remove them from the nations. Paul later discards the Torah-view of a Jew completely and says this in 28-29,


    For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; 29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.


    Paul would have it completely the other way to the prophet and says that even the uncircumcised can be Jews ‘of the heart’. Now who’s blaspheming?


    2.

    Here Paul really does a number. He writes,


    For Moses writes about the righteousness which is of the law, “The man who does those things shall live by them.” But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ ” (that is, to bring Christ down from above) 7 or, “ ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’ ” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).


    And in my NKJV Bible it references Devarim 30:12-13,


    In context,


    And the Lord, your God, will make you abundant for good in all the work of your hands, in the fruit of your womb, in the fruit of your livestock, and in the fruit of your soil. For the Lord will once again rejoice over you for good, as He rejoiced over your forefathers, when you obey the Lord, your God, to observe His commandments and His statutes written in this Torah scroll, [and] when you return to the Lord, your God, with all your heart and with all your soul. For this commandment which I command you this day, is not concealed from you, nor is it far away. It is not in heaven, that you should say, "Who will go up to heaven for us and fetch it for us, to tell [it] to us, so that we can fulfil it?" Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, "Who will cross to the other side of the sea for us and fetch it for us, to tell [it] to us, so that we can fulfil it?”


    This has nothing to do with Jesus, as Paul himself even says at his opening line! He takes verses about the Torah being close and doable to being about Jesus, where the context of the original passage has nothing to do with even the Messiah!


    3.

    In 1 Corinthians 9:12 Paul writes

    9 For it is written in the law of Moses, “You shall not muzzle an ox while it treads out the grain.” Is it oxen God is concerned about? 10 Or does He say it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written, that he who plows should plow in hope, and he who threshes in hope should be partaker of his hope. 11 If we have sown spiritual things for you, is it a great thing if we reap your material things? 12 If others are partakers of this right over you, are we not even more?


    He quotes Devarim 25:4,


    You shall not muzzle an ox when it is threshing [the grain].


    And he thinks G-d is not concerned with the animals, but makes this into a spiritual sowing and basically asking people to pay their dues to the preachers in a tithe. There is nothing in the verse about this. It’s about not muzzling oxen so they can eat as they tread.


    See also Paul in Timothy 5:18,


    For the Scripture says, “You shall not muzzle an ox while it treads out the grain,” and, “The labourer is worthy of his wages.”



    4.

    This one is crazy. I am just going to quote the whole thing,


    Galatians 3:1-12.


    O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified? 2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have you suffered so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? 5 Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?— 6 just as Abraham “believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.” 11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.” 12 Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.”

    This is wrong. Abraham was tested by faith at the Akeida. Paul quotes Genesis 15:6,

    And he believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him as righteousness.

    This is about G-d telling Avram he will have many descendants while looking at the stars. This verse is also very ambiguous in its wording but I’m not going there now.

    He quotes also Genesis 12:3,

    And I will bless those who bless you, and the one who curses you I will curse, and all the families of the earth shall be blessed in you.

    This is just saying people will bless in Abraham’s name, The G-d of Abraham, nothing to do with non-Jews being justified by faith. There’s nothing about faith alone here.


    He quotes Devarim 27:26,

    Cursed be he who does not uphold the words of this Torah, to fulfill them. And all the people shall say, 'Amen!'


    Which is kind of weird because Paul is the one saying you don’t need to keep the Torah to be righteous in this very letter. He afterwards writes that no-one is justified by keeping the law, but here is the context after 27:26,


    And it will be if you obey the Lord, your God, to observe to fulfill all His commandments which I command you this day, the Lord, your God, will place you supreme above all the nations of the earth. And all these blessings will come upon you and cleave to you, if you obey the Lord, your God.


    Wherein all the blessings are listed. So it looks like a whole nation is justified by keeping the Torah, because that’s exactly what G-d wants them to do! It says it right here in the verse!
     
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  13. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Veteran Member

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    For example, Jesus parses an Isaiah verse in Luke 4 to describe His first visit, the rest of the verse describes Armageddon (His Return)!
     
  14. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Well-Known Member

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    Paul's context here is that one isn't a child of God just because he is a Jew, which is the point of Romans. And he makes a good point. Yes, the Jews being among the nations were the reason God's Name was being blasphemed, as they said that they belonged to him, but it seemed as if he wasn't protecting them. This is spoken about from Ezekiel 36:16 - 23. From verse 16 God is actually saying that the reason they are in the nations is because they didn't follow the law (they committed idolatry). So they don't follow the law, God kicks them out, them having been kicked out blasphemes his name. So the point is proven that just because one is a Jew, does not mean that they are in good standing with God, and just because they know the law, that doesn't mean that they are its gatekeepers either, as often their ancestors had the law, but were often punished for not keeping it. And for God to exile a people or to get them killed shows his disapproval of them, so the wrong doers might as well not be Jews. Isaiah chapter one pretty much lays out that just because people are Jews, doesn't mean that God approves of them, which means that spirituality is what counts.


    Yeah, I don't think Paul's interpretation of Deuteronomy 30:12-13 is what was originally intended, as it is referring to the Torah. I think that he is substituting the Law in Deuteronomy for Jesus Christ, who he previously says is the end of the Law and in another book (if not Romans itself) says that the law is the Law of the Christ. The verse he quotes is with regards to fetching the law to bring it to the people in its original context. So by substituting the law for Christ, he is talking about bringing christ from above or from the dead. (which is the grave, and the Jonah type and shadow that Jesus mentions,3 days in the grave in which the sea is the grave, sea is mentioned in deuteronomy 30). This is another type and shadow that he is using, saying that the law is a symbol for Christ. The flaw in the symbolism though is that the Deuteronomy text isn't saying under the sea, which would symbolise the grave, but other side of the sea, which means a foreign land across the sea.


    Another type and shadow.



    Genesis 15:6: Yes, it is about Abrahams descendents, but he had to have faith that such a thing would be fulfilled. Abrahams whole life course in the Bible is about him leaving his home and travelling out of sheer faith rather than evidence. In his own lifetime he was promised he would have many descendent's, followed God because of his faith without seeing much of the promises made to him fulfilled. He just had faith in that promise and God counted it as righteous which proves that faith alone works. To me though it seems that faith alone is being proven here with regards to faith vs evidence, not faith vs law.

    Genesis 12:3: Here Paul is seeing that the Gentiles would be blessed by the seed of Abraham (who is Christ in his mind). The thing is that the Genesis verse doesn't say HOW the nations will be blessed which leaves that part open ended for interpretation. The blessing goes through various people who had faith as well which proves his point. It goes through Isaac and not Ishmael and goes through Jacob, not Esau who rejected the birthright. Also there is a misconception that Paul believes in faith alone. Romans 6:15-23 shows this. He is saying that one believes first and then that faith causes them to do what is good. Not having works would show that a person is a slave to sin and not righteousness. The works reveal that the law is written on a persons heart.

    Deuteronomy 27:26: Paul has a point. That curse only applied to Jews under the law. That law did not apply to gentiles therefore they never suffered the curses. Deuteronomy 28 mentions the curses. So if a Jew becomes a Christian they are then free from the Mosaic law which is under the Israelite covenant, and under the law of the Christ, in which disobedience is destruction which is mentioned in revelations and other NT books.

    And yeah, the whole nation would be justified by keeping the Torah. Paul's case is that that is all fine and good, but the problem is that the nation cannot keep the Torah, hence it becomes useless for salvation. Which is why the Jews are exiled from their land. Hence they suffer curses as a nation. Those who keep the law in their hearts is what matters under the Law of the Christ which is why Christians will be saved and all that.



    So, this was a lot of reading and I am struggling to concentrate (haven't discussed scriptures in ages). So summary and what I think is the real problem here:

    - Paul isn't misquoting text here. What he is doing is saying that Torah symbolises (types and shadows) something else in certain cases. So he isn't rejecting the original meaning but saying that there is a hidden meaning to them.
    - He does make certain valid points in my mind.

    - The real problem here is that one cannot prove whether his interpretation is the original intention of the author or not and anybody can do a similar thing with any book. So his interpretation of the OT is unverifiable.
    - He could have made it all of it up, even though his interpretation is consistent.
    - One would never come to his interpretations by reading the OT alone which invalidates that these verses would work as prophecy as one could make predictions using them.

    I had to delete some of @Rival's posts to be able to post as there was too much wording.

    p.s. should i prep a shield for the backlash?

     
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  15. Rival

    Rival Ankh, Wedja, Seneb
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    I think the biggest question is why didn't the Sages interpret it the way he did? I think the issue here is that Paul is taking Christianity a priori and then using these verses, instead of the other way around.
     
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  16. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Well-Known Member

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    An interesting point about Luke 4 that @BilliardsBall mentioned.

    Here Jesus quotes Isaiah 61.

    Verse 1 says that "The Spirit of the LORD God is upon me because the LORD has anointed me." But then the person speaking is revealed to be God himself in verse 8: "For I, the LORD, love justice". Am I reading it wrong?
     
  17. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Well-Known Member

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    Yes. That is what I think as well.

    He seems to be doing the same thing with the OT that modern Doomsday religions are doing with the OT.

    For instance the JW's interpret OT scriptures as applying to them to support their credibility:

    True Worship Expands Worldwide — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

    "
    16 Each year as a result of the spiritual building program, hundreds of thousands of “foreigners” begin to associate with Jehovah’s organization, and the way is open for still more. Jehovah says: “Your gates will actually be kept open constantly; they will not be closed even by day or by night, in order to bring to you the resources of the nations, and their kings will be taking the lead.” (Isaiah 60:11) Who, though, are the “kings” taking the lead in bringing the resources of the nations to Zion? In ancient times Jehovah moved the hearts of certain rulers to “minister to” Zion. Cyrus, for example, took the initiative in sending the Jews back to Jerusalem to rebuild the temple. Later, Artaxerxes contributed resources and sent Nehemiah to rebuild the walls of Jerusalem. (Ezra 1:2, 3; Nehemiah 2:1-8) Truly “a king’s heart is as streams of water in the hand of Jehovah.” (Proverbs 21:1) Our God can move even powerful rulers to act in harmony with his will.

    17 In modern times many “kings,” or secular authorities, have tried to close the “gates” of Jehovah’s organization. However, others have ministered to Zion by making decisions that helped to keep those “gates” open. (Romans 13:4) In 1919, secular authorities released Joseph F. Rutherford and his companions from unjust imprisonment. (Revelation 11:13) Human governments “swallowed up” the flood of persecution unleashed by Satan after his fall from heaven. (Revelation 12:16) Some governments have promoted religious tolerance, sometimes specifically in behalf of Jehovah’s Witnesses. This kind of ministering has made it easier for crowds of meek ones to pass through the open “gates” into Jehovah’s organization. And what of the opposers who try to close those “gates”? They will never succeed. Of them, Jehovah says: “Any nation and any kingdom that will not serve you will perish; and the nations themselves will without fail come to devastation.” (Isaiah 60:12) All who fight against God’s “woman”—be they individuals or organizations—will perish in the coming war of Armageddon at the latest.—Revelation 16:14, 16."
     
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  18. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Well-Known Member

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    Another one:

    The Rival Kings Enter the 20th Century — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

    ‘THE DISGUSTING THING IS PUT IN PLACE’

    23. What was “the disgusting thing” in the first century?

    23 When the end of the second world war was in sight, another development occurred, just as God’s angel had foretold. “They will certainly put in place the disgusting thing that is causing desolation.” (Daniel 11:31b) Jesus had also spoken of “the disgusting thing.” In the first century, it proved to be the Roman army that came to Jerusalem in 66 C.E. to put down Jewish rebellion.*Matthew 24:15; Daniel 9:27.

    24, 25. (a) What is “the disgusting thing” in modern times? (b) When and how was ‘the disgusting thing put in place’?

    24 What “disgusting thing” has been “put in place” in modern times? Apparently, it is a “disgusting” counterfeit of God’s Kingdom. This was the League of Nations, the scarlet-colored wild beast that went into the abyss, or ceased to exist as a world-peace organization, when World War II erupted. (Revelation 17:8) “The wild beast,” however, was “to ascend out of the abyss.” This it did when the United Nations, with 50 member nations including the former Soviet Union, was established on October 24, 1945. Thus “the disgusting thing” foretold by the angel—the United Nations—was put in place.
     
  19. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    He is a busy person with a family and full life. I'm not surprised.
     
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  20. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    Yes. If you took it literally then Isaiah wold have to be God.

    Isaiah is reporting what he sees and what others say.

    Verse 6 reports, "While you shall be called “Priests of the LORD,” And termed “Servants of our God.” You shall enjoy the wealth of nations And revel in their riches."

    The YOU is the children of Israel. The YOU shall is a prophecy about the nation. Isaiah isn't guaranteeing that; he is speaking on behalf of God.

    Verse 7 then continues
    Because your shame was double— Men cried, “Disgrace is their portion”— Assuredly, They shall have a double share in their land, Joy shall be theirs for all time.

    Then in verse 7 the text continues with the speaker (Isaiah on behalf of God addressing "you". But then the humans insist that disgrace will be what THEY (the children of Israel) get, God comes in and assures (as only He can) that they will have joy (note the third person pronoun). Once that third person is introduced, the verse 8 continues in that voice, as God is continuing his assurance referring to the people in third person - "And make a covenant with them for all time". The speaker (who was the "I" beforehand) is no longer the "I" of verse 8.
     
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