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Featured From where did the "wives" of Cain and Abel come?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Jonathan Bailey, Nov 12, 2019.

  1. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Keep your glee in check my friend. [​IMG]

    Hmmmm.....so...what part of "chronological order" do you not understand?

    Read Genesis ch 1 and then read ch 2. Chapter one is in chronological order ...Chapter two is not. Let that sink in....[​IMG]

    The creatures God brought into being were not given names until God brought them to Adam to give him the privilege of naming them. He was to be their caretaker, so as fellow residents of Planet Earth, he was the one to give them all appropriate names. I imagine it was quite a lengthy process.

    Now, if Adam had no gender in the beginning, was he genderless. If all the animals and other creatures that God brought to Adam to name were male and female, why leave Adam with no gender? Your interpretations are just getting more bizarre, I'm afraid.

    Genesis 1:27 clearly states...
    "God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them."

    Jesus repeated the same words...
    "And He answered and said, “Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning made them male and female". (Matthew 19:4) They were male and female "from the beginning" according to Jesus. He was there so he should know.

    Logically, we use Chapter 1 to give us the order because the two chapters do not contradict each other....chapter two is the details of chapter one, but the order is already presented, which is why it is written first......your interpretation is in error IMO......you are mistaken and so is whatever 'spirit' is guiding you.

    As I said before....there is no "we" here...there is just "you". And this is your opinion....to which you are entitled. But if no one else believes as you do, then what is your opinion worth? If you have no brotherhood, you cannot be a Christian. There is obviously a reason why you can't acknowledge this. [​IMG]

    I am done here....
     
    #181 Deeje, Nov 19, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2019
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  2. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]
    I'll like to hear the scriptural answer @101G has for this.

    It seem @101G doesn't think God is wise, to build the place of residence before the resident. :facepalm:
     
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  3. 101G

    101G Active Member

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    GINOLJC, to all.
    first, thanks for your reply, now your second mistake. or maybe third, o well who's counting. but, was not Adam alone? and because he was alone hence the forming of the animals, because no help meet was suitable, so that's why Eve came on the scene. listen,
    Genesis 2:18 "And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him."
    Genesis 2:19 "And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof."

    STOP, adam was here before the animals, and the woman was not yet formed, got that. lets continue

    Genesis 2:20 "And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him."
    Genesis 2:21 "And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;"
    Genesis 2:22 "And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man."

    STOP, just as he made and brought the animals to Adam, (FIRST), likewise he made the Woman and "brought" HER, the woman to Adam. NOTICE: the "woman" is a ADAM, just taken out of the man, Adam here just means another MAN. and this "another" man, woman, has nothing to do with gender.

    Genesis 2:23 "And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man."

    understand "woman" just mean "ANOTHER" man. remember there are two definitions for Adam
    H121 אָדָם 'Adam (aw-dawm') n/p. identifying the one first man. and the you have this definition of Adam

    H120 אָדָם 'adam (aw-dawm') n-m.
    ruddy i.e. a human being (an individual or the species, mankind, etc.).
    [from H119]
    KJV: X another, + hypocrite, + common sort, X low, man (mean, of low degree), person.

    see how the KJV can translate H120, Adam? ....... ANOTHER.
    DJ, Adam the species, or mankind is just "another" man ..... the "woman" :eek: you didn't have a clue of that did you? now more revelation. scripture, Genesis 5:1 "This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;"

    STOP, did you see it? if not listen, "God made he him" him what? lets see,

    Genesis 5:2 "Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created."

    did you see the revelation?

    A. the Generation(s), of Adam. notice the "s" at the end of Generation. he, (God), made "another" Adam, which was called "WOMAN", not called "FEMALE", but called Adam. the verse said, "and called their name Adam" see, the woman is a ADAM. the same as the first, yeah, "bone of my bone, flesh of my, my, my, flesh..... (smile). after he made the "Woman", THEN, THEN, THEN, he created them Male and Female, just as verse 2 of Genesis 5 states. understand, "woman" is simply another man, (adam, a human creature). out of a man.... . the first man was "wounded" to bring forth another Adam, the Woman, (sound familiar ;) ) someone else was wounded so that "another" .... WOMAN could come forth...... the church. say what! :rolleyes:

    enough education for today. but we suggest you re-read this post for complete edification, and the understanding of God's holy word for clarity.

    understand DJ, it was that you were just taught wrong, so was I. but I don't blame my teachers. they was just teaching me what was told them, and they what was them and so on. but no stop and actually read what the bible really said. well I did, with the gudiance of the Holy Spirit. so I blame no one, but me. it was my responsibility to read, and go to God and ask. not someone else for me, as the scriptures states, Hebrews 4:16 "Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need" see my policy now? "ye have not because ye ask not".

    and there are still so much to learn right here in the creation story.

    PICJAG.
     
  4. 101G

    101G Active Member

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    Peace, peace, peace, .... be with you... confused? :confused: come on now. why would Adam who is made perfect, not dying ... yet, (not sinned) need substance, again the fruit in the garden is it all physical?
    I still haven't got the answer to what kind of fruit that the the tree of Good and Evil produce.
    so you do know what the "FRUIT" of the Spirit is ....... right....... :rolleyes: ... (smile).
    I must chuckle at that one.

    oh Lord how long before they learn........
    Isaiah 28:9 "Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts."
    Isaiah 28:10 "For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:"

    PICJAG.
     
  5. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    So far, you are in agreement with what the Bible says. Day three, all vegetation was made. That would provide more oxygen for the life to follow.

    Okay, now hold your horses, and keep a tight rein on them. In other words, don't let your mind race off, at breakneck speed. Slow down.
    Genesis 2:4 is an account / history / generations of what?
    Genesis 2:4 This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made them.
    The heavens and earth, when God created, correct?
    Notice....
    There is no mention of the earth formation in Chapter 2. Why not?
    There is no mention of the land coming up out of the sea in Chapter 2. Why not?
    It is clear, the writer is not giving an event by event account. Neither is the writer writing a story, like you would read in a book, like "Tom opened the door. There was a blinding flash. Tom fell to the floor. Then everything went black."
    The account in Genesis 2 does not take that format.

    So try reading it, with these facts in mind.
    After reading verses 5 and 6, stop, think about it, recognize that this is one of the details the writer though worth mentioning. Okay?

    Now please, with the facts in mind - it is not a story. It is not giving in chronological order, but there are small details the writer inserts - read verse 7, not as a continuation from verse 6.
    Now pause. Do you see how you now easily remove the problem you have created - not the Bible - you?

    The other thing I want you to slow down and think about, is this.
    Genesis 1:26-28
    Verse 26 - Then God said: “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness, and let them have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and the domestic animals and all the earth and every creeping animal that is moving on the earth.”

    God stated that he was about to make man, to dominate what? The fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and the domestic animals and all the earth and every creeping animal that is moving on the earth
    So the already existing earth, and the already existing animals, were to be dominated by God's next creation - man.
    Now I know you are not going to tell me the earth did not exist yet. I would laugh 101G, seriously. So please do not tell me the animals did not exist either.

    As for gender, the reading continues...
    Verse 27 - And God went on to create the man in his image, in God’s image he created him; male and female he created them.
    What did God create? God went on to create the man. What is man? Human - mankind and humankind are human beings, both male and female. This is what God says he created. Do you agree?

    Next verse...
    Verse 28 - Further, God blessed them, and God said to them: “Be fruitful and become many, fill the earth and subdue it, and have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and every living creature that is moving on the earth.”

    God blessed them, and gave them two tasks.
    1. have plenty children, and spread out in the earth.
    2. Have in subjection the the sea, air, and land animals.

    Now, if there were no animals around, how could God give this command? He couldn't. god would be as stupid as atheist paint him, but he isn't. we know that those are just Atheist rants.
    However, if you are claiming that there were no animals around, before man was made, then I think you might as well claim God is as senseless as a newborn baby.

    The scriptures therefore, are indeed clear, but they don't say anything in support of your ideas. You can always adjust what you say, to be in line with scripture. That would be an indication that you are humble, and allowing God to guide you.

    We would like that.
     
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  6. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    So you have no scriptural answer. That's okay. I knew it.
     
  7. calm

    calm Active Member

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    Does an immortal man need food? What do you think?

    First of all, my friend, calm down.
    Secondly, is it clear to you that the Torah was not written by Moses himself? Or do you think Moses wrote about his own death? And are you also aware that there are no original writings of the Torah but only copies?
     
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  8. 101G

    101G Active Member

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    WHY NOT? ask God he inspired it, me me... :eek:
    God was about to make man, no, he already had on day 3. so that stated is irrelevant to the subject at hand..... :D
    one question, "are you really reading your bible?".
    the animals was made on day 5, Eve was made/formed on day 6, so what's the problem?
    again, are you really reading your bible?. oh well....

    PICJAG.
     
  9. 101G

    101G Active Member

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    how many time must I answer it?

    PICJAG
     
  10. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    Too early for domesticated camels.

    Rabbinic tradition ascribes it to Moses, but scholars generally agree that it was written between the 7th and 4th centuries BCE, with the 6th century BCE as the most likely period for various reasons. The anonymous author was almost certainly an Israelite, although he has set his story outside Israel, in southern Edom or northern Arabia, and makes allusion to places as far apart as Mesopotamia and Egypt.[23]

    The language of Job stands out for its conservative spelling and for its exceptionally large number of words and forms not found elsewhere in the Bible.[24] The 12th century Jewish scholar Ibn Ezra concluded that the book must have been written in some other language and translated into Hebrew,[25] and many later scholars down to the 20th century looked for an Aramaic, Arabic or Edomite original, but a close analysis suggests that the foreign words and foreign-looking forms are literary affectations designed to lend authenticity to the book's distant setting.

    Book of Job - Wikipedia
     
  11. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Finally! “I” not “we”! :)

    You see, no matter how many times you repeat your impossible scenario, the scriptures themselves will prove you wrong....but it’s a fruitless exercise. “A man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still”. :rolleyes:

    Adam was “alone” because he was the only one of his kind at that stage, not that there were no animals. He had no mate like all the other creatures did. God saw fit to educate the man before he took on the responsibility of a wife and children, fully acquainting him with his charges and his responsibilities. Thereafter the man was to be the head of his family as well as their educator. God educated Adam first. Eve’s response to the devil’s temptation proves that Adam had already begun her education. They in turn would educate their children. Isn’t that logical?

    Humans were not designed to be “immortal” and it is impossible for them to be so in the flesh. An immortal cannot die. What God offered to humans was “everlasting life”, dependent entirely on their continued obedience. They had to eat from “the tree of life” in order to keep living, so when they disobeyed, access to that tree was terminated permanently, for as long as humans were sinful, so their lives eventually ended.....and so do ours as a result. Jesus came to pay for that debt that Adam’s left for his children.

    If humans had been immortal, then the death penalty would have been meaningless. How about you try thinking about those things.....? o_O
     
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  12. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Humans were not created to be “immortal”.

    “Mortal” does not mean that humans had to die....it only means that they could. Mortal creatures (both man and animals) need air, food and water to survive....but God supplied all that was needed and more. They were to enjoy life, not just exist.

    The only cause of death in the Garden was disobedience. That means that eating from “the tree of life” would have allowed the humans to live forever. But humans were persuaded to believe a lie and ate from the wrong tree....now we all die.

    Only spirit beings can be immortal....meaning that they cannot die. But since angels can also have their lives terminated, they are not immortal either.
     
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  13. calm

    calm Active Member

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    That's not exactly true. Man was created immortal but was made mortal because of the sin of Adam and Eve.
    I'm sorry I can't agree with you on that. "Mortal" means you're not able to live forever but you have to die, that's what the definition of this word says.
    I agree.
    How do one enjoy life? With food and water or with God?
    That's not right. Adam and Eve were already created immortal, only after they had eaten from the tree of knowledge were they made mortal by God. They were made lower, so to speak.

    God sent them out of the garden after the sin so that they would not regain immortality by eating from the tree of life.
    You contradict yourself. But I understand what you mean, you just explain it a little wrong.
    First of all, not only spirits can be immortal. Nowhere does the Bible claim this, but rather speaks of the opposite. For example, the Bible speaks about people who will later live on earth forever. (Wisdom of Solomon 5:15)(Psalms 37:29)
    And secondly, angels cannot end their lives, that is not possible for them because they are immortal beings. But that indeed doesn't mean that they can't die because God has the power at any time to end the immortality of a being. He can do that at any time, but an immortal being cannot do it by itself as you have claimed. Only mortal beings like us humans are able to commit "suicide".
     
  14. 101G

    101G Active Member

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    not saying that you're right or wrong, but consider this, Genesis 4:20 "And Adah bare Jabal: he was the father of such as dwell in tents, and of such as have cattle." according to Noah Webster's 1828 Dictionary of American English, CATTLE: 1. Beasts or quadrupeds in general, serving for tillage, or other labor, and for food to man. In its primary sense, the word includes camels, horses, asses, all the varieties of domesticated horned beasts or the bovine genus, sheep of all kinds and goats, and perhaps swine. In this general sense, it is constantly used in the scriptures. See Job 1:3. Hence it would appear that the word properly signifies possessions, goods. But whether from a word originally signifying a beast, for in early ages beasts constituted the chief part of a mans property, or from a root signifying to get or possess. This word is restricted to domestic beasts; but in England it includes horses, which it ordinarily does not, in the United States, at least not in New-England.

    PICJAG.
     
  15. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    You also have no scriptural answer. Just another idea?
    I'm looking for a scriptural answer, not stated ideas. Thanks.

    I'm calm, calm. :)
    What's the point you are making calm?
     
    #195 nPeace, Nov 19, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2019
  16. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    "Man was created immortal but was made mortal because of the sin of Adam and Eve."

    Totally wrong. Adam was forgiven by G-d, so his mistake (Adam committed no sin) was forgiven and he became innocent as ever. Sins are not hereditary:

    [39:54]قُلۡ یٰعِبَادِیَ الَّذِیۡنَ اَسۡرَفُوۡا عَلٰۤی اَنۡفُسِہِمۡ لَا تَقۡنَطُوۡا مِنۡ رَّحۡمَۃِ اللّٰہِ ؕ اِنَّ اللّٰہَ یَغۡفِرُ الذُّنُوۡبَ جَمِیۡعًا ؕ اِنَّہٗ ہُوَ الۡغَفُوۡرُ الرَّحِیۡمُ ﴿۵۴﴾
    Say, “O My servants who have committed excesses against their own souls! despair not of the mercy of Allah, surely Allah forgives all sins. Verily He is Most Forgiving, Merciful.
    The Holy Quran - Chapter: 39: Az-Zumar

    Right, please?

    Regards
     
  17. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    You failed 101G. You have been proven wrong, but you will still continue to state your ideas as Gospel, while ignoring the Bible verses presented to you.
    One more thing - some needed advise. Please go read your Bible, and stop listening to that spirit, because it clearly is not holy.
    After day 5... the following occurred.
    Genesis 1:24 And God said, "Let the earth bring forth living creatures according to their kinds: livestock, land crawlers, and beasts of the earth according to their kinds." And it was so.
    Genesis 1:25 God made the beasts of the earth according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and everything that crawls upon the earth according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.
    What day follows day 5? Day 6, isn't it. So animals were made on day 6.
    So what is the problem? It's not a case of Bible reading. It's a case of the god... ahem... some are communicating with - 2 Corinthians 4:4... unfortunately for them. They get strange ideas, and they are so convinced they are right, they can't even see that the scriptures say something else.
     
  18. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    "Does an immortal man need food? What do you think?"

    I get one's point. Immortals don't need food, anybody who eats and drinks for life is Mortal, including Jesus and Mary. Right, please?

    Regards
    __________________
    [21:8]وَ مَاۤ اَرۡسَلۡنَا قَبۡلَکَ اِلَّا رِجَالًا نُّوۡحِیۡۤ اِلَیۡہِمۡ فَسۡـَٔلُوۡۤا اَہۡلَ الذِّکۡرِ اِنۡ کُنۡتُمۡ لَا تَعۡلَمُوۡنَ ﴿۸﴾
    And We sent none as Messengers before thee but men to whom We sent revelations. So ask the people of the Reminder, if you know not.
    [21:9]وَ مَا جَعَلۡنٰہُمۡ جَسَدًا لَّا یَاۡکُلُوۡنَ الطَّعَامَ وَ مَا کَانُوۡا خٰلِدِیۡنَ ﴿۹﴾
    And We did not give them bodies that ate no food, nor were they to live for ever.
    The Holy Quran - Chapter: 21: Al-Anbiya'
     
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  19. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    Sorry to interrupt one.
    What is this Religion: "Natsari"?
    Is it the same as "Natsarim" or "Nazarenes (or Nazoreans)", please?
    Is it a Christian or a Judaism denomination, please? Just for information, please.

    Regards
     
  20. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    "Secondly, is it clear to you that the Torah was not written by Moses himself? Or do you think Moses wrote about his own death? And are you also aware that there are no original writings of the Torah but only copies?"

    Very good points.
    One may like to mention these points in the thread:
    "The prophets tell us that THE SCRIBES HAD CHANGED THE GOD'S LAW"
    , please. Right, please?

    Regards
     
    #200 paarsurrey, Nov 19, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2019
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