From Whence Cometh This Nonsense?

[oldbadger]

Yes, but you can't insert a narrative that isn't evidenced.

Many narratives are statements.

What I don't do is bundle a collection of narratives together and throw them in the bin. The opening post seems to do that.

I just take each sentence or paragraph in turn and look at it while considering what history, archaeology, geography, numismatics and any other documents there might be.

Take the BarZebedees....... do you think that they were loud callers, or violent in nature? I think they were violent. Was Cephas a foundation for a church, an anchorman for a group or hard as stone? What did Judas do before these events and was his name really Judas, or Jude? There isn't a Judas in the entire OT.

It goes on.......... masses of individual pieces of info.......

 

[stvdv]

Okay which is bigger the moon or a marble?

Answer: a marble.

I created the question, therefore . . .

Right, you are free to believe this. I won't debate you

 

[Quagmire]

Right, you are free to believe this. I won't debate you

I also choose to believe that you're debating me.

And that I'm winning.

 

[Rival]

Many narratives are statements.

What I don't do is bundle a collection of narratives together and throw them in the bin. The opening post seems to do that.

I just take each sentence or paragraph in turn and look at it while considering what history, archaeology, geography, numismatics and any other documents there might be.

Take the BarZebedees....... do you think that they were loud callers, or violent in nature? I think they were violent. Was Cephas a foundation for a church, an anchorman for a group or hard as stone? What did Judas do before these events and was his name really Judas, or Jude? There isn't a Judas in the entire OT.

It goes on.......... masses of individual pieces of info.......

But how do you get 'Jesus is buried in England' and 'Jesus and Mary were a thing' from the gospels? You have to use a hell of a lot of inventive thinking. You wont find any trace of 'Jesus went to India' in the gospels, or that he survived the crucifixion, given that the whole religion that gave rise to these gospels is predicated on the belief that he died and was raised, which is written into the text. You need to really be creative to make these leaps. It just sounds like flights of fancy to me.

 

[stvdv]

I also choose to believe that you're debating me.

And that I'm winning.

Imagination is a fine thing, indeed

 

[oldbadger]

But how do you get that he survived the crucifixion, given that the whole religion that gave rise to these gospels is predicated on the belief that he died and was raised.................

Excuse me for reducing your question to one single factor.... that Jesus survived the crucifixion. Can we look at several possibilities, please?

Interestingly the gospels tell us that a man called Jesus (his name was included in earliest bibles, removed later on) who led or was part of a riot in the city or Temple and who the people loved dearly. The people would not desert this Jesus but brought great pressure on the Roman Prefect for his release, so much so that the Prefect did release him..... the people called him 'Jesus Son of the Father'

Exactly how much more evidence is needed for the possibility that Jesus was not even crucified?

The man who Pilate DID have crucified was whipped bloody and his features quite covered with blood from a circle of thorns....... who exactly identified this person?

Crucifixion usually takes three long agonising days of hell, but after about 5-6 hours the soldiers broke the other convict's legs (death comes soon after because they cannot breath like that) speared the centre man's right lung to release fluids from it (allows it to work again) and got him down off the cross and away, and he disappeared forever from the tomb that night or the next........ what was that about?

Pilate liked Jesus and was not bothered if the Temple was upset.... He clearly liked J of A and saw him privately before allowing him to get the man down and away.

Oh..... and we are told that Jesus passed through Galilee not long afterwards and saw all his old mates. That could be on the way to to Tyre or Sidon, ports that traded with ....... Cornwall.

Who was Jesus son of the Father?
Who was the crucified man?


The Christians will tell you their story....... I'm interested in all possibilities. If you believe that Jesus is really God of all the Universe and came to little Earth 'cos we're special and let himself be killed to save us and came back to life.... OK..... I can acknowledge and respect Christian Faith where I see it...... but if they think my own (or anybody else's) research is a big joke then they should not be upset if some folks belittle their story, is all.

 

[Rival]

Excuse me for reducing your question to one single factor.... that Jesus survived the crucifixion. Can we look at several possibilities, please?

Interestingly the gospels tell us that a man called Jesus (his name was included in earliest bibles, removed later on) who led or was part of a riot in the city or Temple and who the people loved dearly. The people would not desert this Jesus but brought great pressure on the Roman Prefect for his release, so much so that the Prefect did release him..... the people called him 'Jesus Son of the Father'

Exactly how much more evidence is needed for the possibility that Jesus was not even crucified?

The man who Pilate DID have crucified was whipped bloody and his features quite covered with blood from a circle of thorns....... who exactly identified this person?

Crucifixion usually takes three long agonising days of hell, but after about 5-6 hours the soldiers broke the other convict's legs (death comes soon after because they cannot breath like that) speared the centre man's right lung to release fluids from it (allows it to work again) and got him down off the cross and away, and he disappeared forever from the tomb that night or the next........ what was that about?

Pilate liked Jesus and was not bothered if the Temple was upset.... He clearly liked J of A and saw him privately before allowing him to get the man down and away.

Oh..... and we are told that Jesus passed through Galilee not long afterwards and saw all his old mates. That could be on the way to to Tyre or Sidon, ports that traded with ....... Cornwall.

Who was Jesus son of the Father?
Who was the crucified man?


The Christians will tell you their story....... I'm interested in all possibilities. If you believe that Jesus is really God of all the Universe and came to little Earth 'cos we're special and let himself be killed to save us and came back to life.... OK..... I can acknowledge and respect Christian Faith where I see it...... but if they think my own (or anybody else's) research is a big joke then they should not be upset if some folks belittle their story, is all.

But this leaves you with the problem that the gospel writers had absolutely no idea what they were on about yet you use them to elucidate your point. If they wanted to illustrate that Jesus wasn't crucified then I'm pretty sure they would have written that without all the need for this cryptic stuff that almost no-one else read into it.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

But this leaves you with the problem that the gospel writers had absolutely no idea what they were on about yet you use them to elucidate your point. If they wanted to illustrate that Jesus wasn't crucified then I'm pretty sure they would have written that without all the need for this cryptic stuff that almost no-one else read into it.

Put somewhat differently ...

The crucifixion of Jesus is an example of an event that meets the criterion of embarrassment. This method of execution was considered the most shameful and degrading in the Roman world, and advocates of the criterion claim this method of execution is therefore the least likely to have been invented by the followers of Jesus. [source]​

 

[oldbadger]

But this leaves you with the problem that the gospel writers had absolutely no idea what they were on about yet you use them to elucidate your point.

No idea?
Every gospel writer had collected many pieces of information and included these in their gospels. So clearly they are all valuable to the student of HJ.
Where did you get the idea that they didn't know anything?

But G-Mark (less the Christian additions) does give a good idea of what happened.

If they wanted to illustrate that Jesus wasn't crucified then I'm pretty sure they would have written that without all the need for this cryptic stuff that almost no-one else read into it.

How successful was that then! Nobody took any notice of that, right there staring at them out of the pages!
So it was written, although later the man's name would be reduced and left in Eastern Aramaic, a language which Romans didn't bother with, even made fun of......
It's there........ just read it.
I still cannot figure why so many sentences were included which were 'unhelpful' to the Christian cause. On the one hand Christians are adding bits, like the last three words of Mark 1:1, on the other they include sentences which show the disciples being upset with Jesus's actions, Mark 6:52 and on yet another this driven need to include a Jesus son of Father who was loved by all and thus reprieved, released.

It's all there........ it just needs to be investigated..... individually. I think that some of the famous HJ scholars have written baloney and I'm not alone in that.... some of them ridicule each other. The best guide is to 'do it yourself'!!

 

[Quagmire]

Imagination is a fine thing, indeed

Depends on whether you're using it or letting it use you.

 

[stvdv]

Depends on whether you're using it or letting it use you.

So far, I have not used it (in our conversation)

 

[Muffled]

I keep hearing certain folks going on about how Jesus was a king. Josephus wrote the Gospels. Jesus is buried in England. Jesus was married to Mary Magdalene. All this.

Where does this, frankly, rubbish come from? Any New Testament scholar will tell you that we know next to nothing about the historical Jesus so who came up with these ramblings and from where?

I have no clue but the devil is a liar.

I believe Jesus is king. He is my king and I am His subject, I am one of many I am sure.

 

[Muffled]

Probably due to misinterpretations of the KJV. Which was meant to make the Religion appear and sound more "Kingly".

Are you saying the other translations don't refer to Jesus as King?

 

[Muffled]

I've never heard these claims before.

Edit: except for "Jesus was married to Mary Magdalene." I think that's from the Da Vinci Code.

I believe that fable was answered by the Qu'ran when it says that God does not have sons.

 

[BilliardsBall]

But he wasn't a king. So why are these conspiracy theorists saying he was?

Jesus was a King:

The NT as genealogies of both Joseph and Mary, showing they are both descended directly from King David (through his sons Solomon and Nathan, respectively). Jesus could have had the scrolls opened and taken an earthly throne as king, a more valid king than the Idumean Herod dynasty.

His genealogies make Him the legitimate King of Israel. He didn't serve on an earthly throne as is recorded as rejecting earthly kingship to become Savior.

KING OF THE JEWS was posted on his cross as His crime, by Pontius Pilate. It's not some "conspiracy theory" but is consistent throughout the New Testament. The same NT says He is Lord of Lords and King of all Kings.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I believe that fable was answered by the Qu'ran when it says that God does not have sons.

I strongly doubt that the Quran has anything at all to say about a book that was written more than a thousand years after the Quran.

I'd also love it if you gave me a real reason why the Quran should be given more weight than the Da Vinci Code.

BTW: I thought that Muslims didn't consider Jesus/Isa to be God anyhow... so why would anything in the Quran about God "not having sons" be relevant to whether Jesus had sons?

There's certainly nothing in the Quran to suggest that prophets can't have sons, is there?

 

[Rival]

Jesus was a King:

The NT as genealogies of both Joseph and Mary, showing they are both descended directly from King David (through his sons Solomon and Nathan, respectively). Jesus could have had the scrolls opened and taken an earthly throne as king, a more valid king than the Idumean Herod dynasty.

His genealogies make Him the legitimate King of Israel. He didn't serve on an earthly throne as is recorded as rejecting earthly kingship to become Savior.

KING OF THE JEWS was posted on his cross as His crime, by Pontius Pilate. It's not some "conspiracy theory" but is consistent throughout the New Testament. The same NT says He is Lord of Lords and King of all Kings.

Let my try again.

These people believe Jesus was a king ON EARTH. Not a crypto king. Not a despised king. A bona fide king.

 

[Vee]

I keep hearing certain folks going on about how Jesus was a king. Josephus wrote the Gospels. Jesus is buried in England. Jesus was married to Mary Magdalene. All this.

Where does this, frankly, rubbish come from? Any New Testament scholar will tell you that we know next to nothing about the historical Jesus so who came up with these ramblings and from where?

I think some people were really bored and made stuff up.

 

[Psalm23]

I keep hearing certain folks going on about how Jesus was a king. Josephus wrote the Gospels. Jesus is buried in England. Jesus was married to Mary Magdalene. All this.

Where does this, frankly, rubbish come from? Any New Testament scholar will tell you that we know next to nothing about the historical Jesus so who came up with these ramblings and from where?

I heard that the book the Davici Code had that idea of Jesus being married to Mary Magdalene. Never heard about Josephus writing the gospel and have hardly a clue for the assertion of Jesus being buried in England. Possibly the idea about Josephus comes from his writing about Jesus but this is not the same as writing the gospels. From what I read about Josephus, he was a historian but would not have been alive yet when Jesus walked the earth. Some believe that certain aspects of his writing about Jesus were his own but someone may have added to Josephus words.
As for me Jesus is my King and is risen from the dead indeed.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Let my try again.

These people believe Jesus was a king ON EARTH. Not a crypto king. Not a despised king. A bona fide king.

We can hardly account for the crazies, can we? He was only the King of Hearts.