From ignorance to arrogance, and beyond

[Mock Turtle]

My tagline - Religion: Often the quickest path from ignorance to arrogance and/or condescension - an explanation, since I know it doesn't apply to all and might seem offensive to so many.

We are all born essentially ignorant - lacking all the knowledge we acquire over time - so no slight meant there.

It often appears to be the case that many who have a religious belief will either justify their belief by simply saying 'I know it to be true' - from a certain acceptance or via a 'spiritual' experience perhaps or both - or they will be convinced of their case by a variety of other means, perhaps related to how much religious material or teaching they have had or how much thinking they have done. Perhaps they are right, I don't know, but I would never claim that anything I believed or didn't believe was actually 'the truth' - I just don't see it as being possible for humans to know 'the truth'. Perhaps I am just too honest to ever do so, but the claim by others does often come across as arrogance, even if it is unintentional. 'I know' is just a convenient end to discussion or challenge. Quoting any religious text is also rather convenient, and just a second-hand way of doing the same thing.

Following on from this, sometimes comes the condescension, whereby those accepting of a particular religious belief often judge others (usually by the values given to them by their religious belief) and thereby placing them into some category - often being seen as less of an individual or as uneducated in their particular religious doctrine so dismissible - and perhaps in need of reeducating and/or sympathy or something else. And what often comes with this is a tendency to belittle others, when instead one should perhaps have more humility in recognising that your belief, although shared by so many others too, is simply a belief - and not proven - not to another's satisfaction at least. The claims for religions being the sole source and arbiter of morality being one example of such condescension, as is the argument by numbers of believers.

I doubt all this will help many though, since we are often attached to our beliefs as much as shipwrecked sailors to the nearest piece of flotsam. I'm sure many will be angry that others choose to challenge their religious beliefs, often seemingly without respect, but for many of us, religious beliefs are just another belief system amongst others to be challenged - and having as much value as any other with regards any authenticity.

I hope this explains why I use such a tagline. It might be distasteful perhaps but it is there to make one think rather than anything else. I know I do often come across as disrespectful, and I apologise, but I am as human as the next.

 

[Quintessence]

Something to keep in mind is that we really need to practice active listening before making too many assumptions about the meaning behind someone's words. What the speaker intends to communicate and what the listener hears frequently mismatch for a wide variety of reasons.

To use something in the OP as an example, just because someone talks about knowing "the truth" does not mean that they intend to convey that this knowledge or these truths are absolute, literal, or whatever other assumption you want to make about what they meant by "the truth." The active listening follow-up to someone using a phrase like "truth" is to ask "truth can mean a lot of different things in varying contexts... what do you mean by it here?"

Key to active listening is that the goal is to better understand the speaker, not to judge, challenge, cross-examine, or threaten them in any way. Some can be brusque with responses because they simply want to be understood, not put under some judgmental microscope. One way of avoiding such problems is to simply accept everything as true from the get go. Accept everything as true in the context that matters - it is true in the lives of those who honor those traditions. And if you want to understand other people, you've got to allow for that and get your own ego out of the way.

Just a few thoughts of the mornin'. Take with a cup of tea as needed.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Key to active listening is that the goal is to better understand the speaker, not to judge, challenge, cross-examine, or threaten them in any way. Some can be brusque with responses because they simply want to be understood, not put under some judgmental microscope. One way of avoiding such problems is to simply accept everything as true from the get go. Accept everything as true in the context that matters - it is true in the lives of those who honor those traditions. And if you want to understand other people, you've got to allow for that and get your own ego out of the way.

Just a few thoughts of the mornin'. Take with a cup of tea as needed.

I think this is more than difficult when they often conflict with other's or one's own experience - or one's knowledge of science and/or human behaviour. But no doubt good advice.

 

[Howard Is]

I think this is more than difficult when they often conflict with other's or one's own experience - or one's knowledge of science and/or human behaviour. But no doubt good advice.

Indeed it is good advice.

Just by accepting diversity and the extraordinary range of human experience we radically improve our own experience.

Empathy can be actively cultivated.

 

[Quintessence]

I think this is more than difficult when they often conflict with other's or one's own experience - or one's knowledge of science and/or human behaviour. But no doubt good advice.

The more you start seeing truth as relative to perspective - specifically the perspective of that person's life experiences and culture - the less you see it as being about conflict. Instead, you see it as an inevitable byproduct of human limitations and humans being... well... different from one another.

These words, too, of course, are a product of the culture I grew up with and my experiences.

 

[LiveBetterLife]

Catholic: "Martin Luther had some valid complaints with the Vatican."

Different Catholic: "How'd you like a tire iron upside your head?"

 

[Mock Turtle]

The more you start seeing truth as relative to perspective - specifically the perspective of that person's life experiences and culture - the less you see it as being about conflict. Instead, you see it as an inevitable byproduct of human limitations and humans being... well... different from one another.

These words, too, of course, are a product of the culture I grew up with and my experiences.

I'm not sure this helps in the practical matters we usually have to deal with though. As in recognising that FGM is harmful (often religiously related although perhaps mostly cultural), perhaps male circumcision too (of babies without their consent of course and largely religiously related), or that of negative attitudes towards homosexuality (often tending to be religiously related), for example, where we do have to drop our respect and shout out loud how we feel about such matters - if we want to see change for the better occurring, that is.

I know it often seems like we all live in different realities - for a Muslim it will probably revolve around Islam, for others, around their particular religious beliefs, and for most, around their normative cultures, but until we discover otherwise, we all actually occupy the same reality. Hence, if I am to be consistent in my beliefs and non-beliefs, I can not easily reconcile a lack of belief in God or gods (or religions resulting from such) whilst admitting at the same time that others who do so are equally correct. I don't know for sure, as I've often admitted, but I can't believe two contrary things at the same time. So if I don't believe that God or gods exist, I cannot view others who apparently do so as anything other than being delusional. That is the position I must take since otherwise I would be indulging in delusion myself. Equally, they might view me as being delusional, as they might for all others who share different religious beliefs. I'm quite prepared to be wrong and have any delusions shattered, if only everyone else was prepared for the same outcome.

The respect given to others and their beliefs is another matter, and more relates to how they figure in the values and morality area, especially where much of this is coming from religious doctrine or culture and lacking sensible evidence - sexual rights and freedoms, female equality, the rights of children, etc. - are some of the areas where respect can be diminished if they seem to go against those values I see as being more overriding than any religion or culture. It is not difficult to respect others where their values mostly coincide with one's own values, but much more difficult where they seem so out of kilter as to be almost alien - beliefs, attitudes, and behaviour, for example, that negate the freedoms of others, or treat others as lower-class citizens, or deny equality to one or more sectors of society.

So although in theory one should respect the beliefs and/or experiences of others, it cannot sensibly be done if each encounter chips away at one's concept of existence, when that essentially is our strength in life. And I suppose for any non-religious believer, the evidence presented in the form of ancient texts usually is meaningless apart from how any coincides with aspects of life that could be observed as much without any religious belief.

 

[Workman]

My tagline - Religion: Often the quickest path from ignorance to arrogance and/or condescension - an explanation, since I know it doesn't apply to all and might seem offensive to so many.

We are all born essentially ignorant - lacking all the knowledge we acquire over time - so no slight meant there.

It often appears to be the case that many who have a religious belief will either justify their belief by simply saying 'I know it to be true' - from a certain acceptance or via a 'spiritual' experience perhaps or both - or they will be convinced of their case by a variety of other means, perhaps related to how much religious material or teaching they have had or how much thinking they have done. Perhaps they are right, I don't know, but I would never claim that anything I believed or didn't believe was actually 'the truth' - I just don't see it as being possible for humans to know 'the truth'. Perhaps I am just too honest to ever do so, but the claim by others does often come across as arrogance, even if it is unintentional. 'I know' is just a convenient end to discussion or challenge. Quoting any religious text is also rather convenient, and just a second-hand way of doing the same thing.

Following on from this, sometimes comes the condescension, whereby those accepting of a particular religious belief often judge others (usually by the values given to them by their religious belief) and thereby placing them into some category - often being seen as less of an individual or as uneducated in their particular religious doctrine so dismissible - and perhaps in need of reeducating and/or sympathy or something else. And what often comes with this is a tendency to belittle others, when instead one should perhaps have more humility in recognising that your belief, although shared by so many others too, is simply a belief - and not proven - not to another's satisfaction at least. The claims for religions being the sole source and arbiter of morality being one example of such condescension, as is the argument by numbers of believers.

I doubt all this will help many though, since we are often attached to our beliefs as much as shipwrecked sailors to the nearest piece of flotsam. I'm sure many will be angry that others choose to challenge their religious beliefs, often seemingly without respect, but for many of us, religious beliefs are just another belief system amongst others to be challenged - and having as much value as any other with regards any authenticity.

I hope this explains why I use such a tagline. It might be distasteful perhaps but it is there to make one think rather than anything else. I know I do often come across as disrespectful, and I apologise, but I am as human as the next.

It takes a ‘Real’ Man to say what you have said..and for that..your reservation be ‘NOW’ yours to take..
I give you my Respect..for all it was, was for you to understand where I am coming from..I’m not here(RF) to tell others that they are wrong..nor try and claim to them of whom I am..
I am here ONLY to claim of what be MINE!..and when I say ‘mine’..humans will not understand how I will claim that, but you my brother did!..you felt it didn’t you!.i know the mind cannot comprehend to what it is..but you still came over it..that be what I am here for..to claim them back to God.

Now I give this..and you shall go back out there with it.

Life be but the same as you...
What you make of it,
Life will make it true for you..
One can ONLY be selfish if they don’t believe in a God.
Think about it..you do not know how all the sudden you are here, and now one has claim they are to know of what be the next?
You can be told by science of what ever they claim to know, but exactly like the unconsciousness...it will NOT always be TRUE..to it’s REALITY.
The reason God be here, be therefore in the...‘NEXT’. It is the understanding for that reason of why religious people have more common sense than the atheists of themselves..they(atheists) whom don’t wish to believe in the Next..and therefore they have become selfish of their own being lives to ruin and dwell with this living.

God be there and shall for it be from the ‘Next’ to be theirs too..The question is for you: do you Believe in it?

The key is hidden away from you..
But you MUST find it with this..

My Father(God) has made us ‘Perfect’.

What this means for People who believe in God..The perfect is Not BASED on this world..but be BASED FROM this world.

Beware of your choices for we are not any different..Example...there are many different race’s in this world..if one is therefore selfish on his/her own race..they become racist..than they become failures of Gods commandants of being Perfect...One must see past all their difference, meaning don’t look to judge by their skin(image/being different)..their image(skin) are just as the same as ‘you and I’..do you know How? behind its image..Will be the same colour as us all.. through our blood..once you see it and understood this..you will pass its test..and have killed its ego in creating itself of a waited unhappy living.

This world is full of evilness, it is you that is on trial..and your job is to test it..of your own way..in your own pace..at your own choice..for when you die..IT is STILL Alive..Than it will be judged upon you by it.

Now you should but keep going in life and deal with ALL what holds you back..for once you have done this all..it be of that ONLY...“You Are”, “That God has made Man(YOU) Perfect In Their Own Image”.

Now go; and be what you can from not what you can’t..for everything that is not what you seem(to think)..but be it’s reason for you to test in your own purpose..The free-Will be yours..
Im/Perfect(selfish)..or Perfect?


For all the Love in You my brother.
Go well in your journey..
Let Go, and Let God.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Life be but the same as you...
What you make of it,
Life will make it true for you..
One can ONLY be selfish if they don’t believe in a God.

I'll agree with the first bit - that life is what we make of it - but with reservations, since we are not all born equally endowed or have the same life experiences to affect us - negatively or positively. The second bit I cannot agree with since our moral behaviour doesn't depend upon any religious belief (in my view) but mainly on what we have been taught, have experienced, or have worked out for ourselves as being the most appropriate for our life and that of others.

 

[Workman]

I'll agree with the first bit - that life is what we make of it - but with reservations, since we are not all born equally endowed or have the same life experiences to affect us - negatively or positively. The second bit I cannot agree with since our moral behaviour doesn't depend upon any religious belief (in my view) but mainly on what we have been taught, have experienced, or have worked out for ourselves as being the most appropriate for our life and that of others.

Yes..off course!..and it ‘make’s sense.