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From a Deos to Your God

PureX

Veteran Member
Not getting at anything really, just groking the basis of your belief. Your assumption being that nothing could exist without God. That's an assumption I don't have.
Everything that exists, so far as we know, appears to have come from a single source. We do not know what that source is, how it is, or why it is. And yet it appears to be the origin of everything.

Scientists call it a "quantum singularity", but that really means nothing, as the label holds no content; just conjecture. Most people call it "God" and then fill in the blank with all kinds of images and stories and ideals and metaphors. But that's all conjecture, too. So I decided to just be honest about it and let the mystery be what it is: a mystery. And I'll endeavor to trust in it as best I can.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Good question! God taste like God. No more specific definition.

Can you tell the taste of coffee without using the word "coffee" ?

I was told by Guru that God tastes like honey. I suppose that is what I expected. Just comparing notes.
If the Guru said God tasted like coffee, maybe that is what I taste. :shrug:
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
At the basis of all knowledge is some assumption. The point being I suppose is whether the assumption are hidden from ourselves, the believer in God or not.
Though one doesn't need to be a believer in a God to have hidden assumption in our knowledge which allows folks some unjustified certainty.

While it can be a beneficial discussion, I've found it very difficult, actually bordering on impossible to get some people to accept/acknowledge the hidden assumptions at the basis of their knowledge. Or maybe a number are aware of the necessity of assumptions made for the sake of knowledge and choose the ones they are comfortable with.

So there is no negative judgement against people for their assumptions, as we all have them.
Yep. All (formal) systems rest on assumptions, sometimes called axioms. Euclidean geometry has 5, algebra has 5, science has 3. You can't get rid of them. The goal (for a "good" system) is to have as few as possible as much as necessary and to stay contradiction free.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
Everything that exists, so far as we know, appears to have come from a single source. We do not know what that source is, how it is, or why it is. And yet it appears to be the origin of everything.

Naturally, as a polytheist as well as a substance pluralist, I see no reason to suppose a single source. Do you have a sense of what is behind your assumption of a source (singular) as opposed to sources (plural)?

As a bonus, I also think it is worth distinguishing a bit between ontological perspectives on the "root substance(s)" of reality versus the question of the gods. It is possible, for instance, to be a substance monist, dualist, or pluralist but hold a perspective of the gods that doesn't match up with that. I know some Pagans who are polytheists (many gods) but feel there's a single underlying substance (monism) for example.
 

Eyes to See

Well-Known Member
Assuming the existence of a creator is given, how do you get to your understanding of god?

There are two main ways to get to understand God. There are two books.

Creation is the first book. Contemplating our life and what we have in life, and the things around us is one good way to get to know a little bit about the Creator. Take all of the detail that is put into tiny things and then our senses to enjoy them. The human sense of touch is a marvel. The touch in our fingers is so sensitive that we can sense things that are only two microns big. A micron is really really small.

There is an endless variety of food combinations from different plants, vegetables and fruits, with an endless variety of tastes to enjoy when we eat. The wide variety of colors in vegetation. All the flowers that exist.

Looking at small things like these one perceives what sort of person God is. A person that loves variety, color, and detail. He takes into account even the most minute, tiny detail we may not even think about. Then you have all of the animals and their personalities and their intelligence. Little birds that can travel thousands of miles. Huge sea creatures. Powerful land animals. Regal creatures like the soaring eagle with its acute eyesight. Tiny creatures like termites that create air-conditioned homes. Octopus that use jet propulsion.

Of course although we can get a glimpse into the personality of the Creator looking at his creation, we can see his awe-inspiring power in the testament of the stars that speckle the night sky, and his gentleness in the smile of a loved one, or the laughter of a baby. We cannot get to know him as a person.

The second book, the Bible gives us information about God, such as his name is Jehovah. That he is an invisible spirit that created all things. That he has a high moral standard of right and wrong. That he does all things out of love. That he first began creation in heaven in the spirit realm where the great Spirit Jehovah resides, he created a son in his image, and through that son he created all other things. He created other angels in the heaven, and then the universe and all things in it, including the earth.

No human could give you any of this information. It had to come from a supernatural source. A human could only guess, and give you wild imaginings on such things. The Bible claims to be from a supernatural source and gives proof of such. It is accurate and reliable in historic information, in fulfilled prophecy, and the archeological record backs up its claims. It is not a scientific textbook but when dealing with scientific subjects it is correct. For example, over 4,500 years ago a Bible writer wrote that the earth hangs upon nothing. And in another scripture we are told the earth is spherical or round. Things that only modern humans have come to understand.

Getting to know God well is not that difficult. Take time to reflect on nature and creation. Go out for a walk, contemplate a sunset. And take time to read God's word in the Bible every day and you will not only learn who God is, what is name is, what his purpose for our life is, you will find satisfaction in knowing right from wrong and then coming to love God as you see how a loving God he is. His love moves us to love. And to act. And even bad people can change. They can contemplate on all God has done for us and is doing. How he gave his only-begotten son for our sins. And how that extremely powerful act of love moves us to serve him.

God promises everlasting life to all those who seek him. But even if that were not the case he deserves our worship in this short life we do live. As sinners we do not deserve life. It is a free gift. And it is undeserved kindness and mercy that has kept the human race in existence, and has given us hope that everyone exercising faith in the ransom paid for our sins leads to everlasting life.
 

chinu

chinu
I was told by Guru that God tastes like honey. I suppose that is what I expected. Just comparing notes. If the Guru said God tasted like coffee, maybe that is what I taste. :shrug:
Sorry! I don't want to say that your respected guru/teacher is wrong.
But, as I already told in the starting.. I have my own understandings about creator. I don't relay on anybody else's understandings. :)

Btw.. example of coffee was just to make you understand that God is not just the word "God".
Like, one need to drink coffee in order to know the taste of coffee. similarly, one need to drink God in order to understand the taste of God.

Meditation = drinking God.
 
Last edited:

Heyo

Veteran Member
There are two main ways to get to understand God. There are two books.

Creation is the first book. Contemplating our life and what we have in life, and the things around us is one good way to get to know a little bit about the Creator. Take all of the detail that is put into tiny things and then our senses to enjoy them. The human sense of touch is a marvel. The touch in our fingers is so sensitive that we can sense things that are only two microns big. A micron is really really small.

There is an endless variety of food combinations from different plants, vegetables and fruits, with an endless variety of tastes to enjoy when we eat. The wide variety of colors in vegetation. All the flowers that exist.

Looking at small things like these one perceives what sort of person God is. A person that loves variety, color, and detail. He takes into account even the most minute, tiny detail we may not even think about. Then you have all of the animals and their personalities and their intelligence. Little birds that can travel thousands of miles. Huge sea creatures. Powerful land animals. Regal creatures like the soaring eagle with its acute eyesight. Tiny creatures like termites that create air-conditioned homes. Octopus that use jet propulsion.

Of course although we can get a glimpse into the personality of the Creator looking at his creation, we can see his awe-inspiring power in the testament of the stars that speckle the night sky, and his gentleness in the smile of a loved one, or the laughter of a baby. We cannot get to know him as a person.

The second book, the Bible gives us information about God, such as his name is Jehovah. That he is an invisible spirit that created all things. That he has a high moral standard of right and wrong. That he does all things out of love. That he first began creation in heaven in the spirit realm where the great Spirit Jehovah resides, he created a son in his image, and through that son he created all other things. He created other angels in the heaven, and then the universe and all things in it, including the earth.

No human could give you any of this information. It had to come from a supernatural source. A human could only guess, and give you wild imaginings on such things. The Bible claims to be from a supernatural source and gives proof of such. It is accurate and reliable in historic information, in fulfilled prophecy, and the archeological record backs up its claims. It is not a scientific textbook but when dealing with scientific subjects it is correct. For example, over 4,500 years ago a Bible writer wrote that the earth hangs upon nothing. And in another scripture we are told the earth is spherical or round. Things that only modern humans have come to understand.

Getting to know God well is not that difficult. Take time to reflect on nature and creation. Go out for a walk, contemplate a sunset. And take time to read God's word in the Bible every day and you will not only learn who God is, what is name is, what his purpose for our life is, you will find satisfaction in knowing right from wrong and then coming to love God as you see how a loving God he is. His love moves us to love. And to act. And even bad people can change. They can contemplate on all God has done for us and is doing. How he gave his only-begotten son for our sins. And how that extremely powerful act of love moves us to serve him.

God promises everlasting life to all those who seek him. But even if that were not the case he deserves our worship in this short life we do live. As sinners we do not deserve life. It is a free gift. And it is undeserved kindness and mercy that has kept the human race in existence, and has given us hope that everyone exercising faith in the ransom paid for our sins leads to everlasting life.
42.
That's the number of assumptions I have counted just by skimming. And you didn't mark any.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Sorry! I don't want to say that your respected guru/teacher is wrong.
But, as I already told in the starting.. I have my own understandings about creator. I don't relay on anybody else's understandings. :)

Btw.. example of coffee was just to make you understand that God is not just the word "God".
Like, one need to drink coffee in order to know the taste of coffee. similarly, one need to drink God in order to understand the taste of God.

Meditation = drinking God.

My question is then how do you know it's God you are drinking?
Maybe it's the devil.
Maybe it's a false God.
Maybe it is your brain tricking you.

The Guru provided some idea of what God ought to be like. That gave me some certainty of the experience. What reference do you have to compare to know it is God?
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Okay, @Quintessence, hit the nail on the head.

Hi @Heyo

So what happens if I try to make a neutral assumption to start from. I know nothing about "das Ding an sich" other than it is in itself.
So can I in my experiences find God as a Western skeptic? Well, no and yes. I can't find any positive answer to where the world came from in any sense: Science, philosophy or religion. But I can find God in an indirect sense. The world could be a trickster and I am a Boltzmann Brain, so I assume the world is fair and not a trickster.
Side note: To assume that is useless personally to question whether the world is a trickster or not, doesn't solve anything, because that it is useless is in me and doesn't decide whether the world is a trickster or fair. So to act as if the thread is real, is to assume that the world is fair.

Now look at the world: You can't see that the world is fair, right?!! But to ascribe a mind/subjective/idealistic/conscious property to the world is supernatural as per: Of or relating to an order of existence beyond the visible observable universe. I.e. the world has at least in part an idealistic ontology. It is fair.
Side note: In most assumptions about the natural world that is not assumed. But it does happen in some assumptions about the natural world.

Weakness of this reasoning. Some naturalists will deny that it matters and they just act if the world is natural.
But that leads to the second part of ontological idealism. The world is not just around us, because we come from the world and the world is in us. In naturalistic terms we are made out of dead stars in part. So if the world gave rise to the conscious and that something matter or doesn't have to matter, even if the world is not just conscious, it must in some sense be conscious, because otherwise the conscious is unnatural.
Side note: Even if the conscious is an emergent property, it still means that the natural is proto-conscious since it gave rise to the conscious.

Weakness of this round: It is a form of dualism, but since I don't claim to know what the world in itself really is, in effect I am just saying that we can't just say that the world is just natural or indeed physical, because parts of the world are conscious.

This is my God. Nature is God, because I ascribe fairness to it and I can't understand nature as without ontological idealism. Consciousness is a first person ontological property and not a part of the visible observable universe.

That says nothing about a theistic God or indeed if nature is many gods. Only that the world is not just natural or physical, because the supernatural is right there. Consciousness is not a part of the visible observable universe.

For the rest of assumptions I use, I am a methodological naturalist in that I use science to deal with the objective, physical and all that. For the religious side I believe humans are with dignity and worth. But so is all life in some sense.

Regards
Mikkel
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
My question is then how do you know it's God you are drinking?
Maybe it's the devil.
Maybe it's a false God.
Maybe it is your brain tricking you.

The Guru provided some idea of what God ought to be like. That gave me some certainty of the experience. What reference do you have to compare to know it is God?

How do you know that you are not a Boltzmann Brain? I mean know!!!
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Naturally, as a polytheist as well as a substance pluralist, I see no reason to suppose a single source. Do you have a sense of what is behind your assumption of a source (singular) as opposed to sources (plural)?
The universe, and all it's aspects, is all that exists so far as we know. And it appears to have sprung into being from a single point, in a single massive burst of 'energy', that is still happening. The many varied manifestations of this burst of 'energy' are now complex far beyond our comprehension. But I can't ignore that from everything we see, experience, and can understand, it ALL shares the same point of origin. And it ALL manifests from the same set of 'rules'. We do not know the source of this explosion of energy. Nor do we know the origin of the rules that are governing how all this energy can and cannot express and manifest itself. Nor do we know what, if any, purpose there might be for it all. But I can't ignore 'what is', so far as anyone of us can tell. And that leaves me facing a singular existential mystery, not a myriad of them.
 

chinu

chinu
My question is then how do you know it's God you are drinking?
Maybe it's the devil.
Maybe it's a false God.
Maybe it is your brain tricking you.
Okay, I agree that there's possibility of devil, false God and even brain tricking during meditation. But, there's also a possibility of true God -- do you agree that ? :)
The Guru provided some idea of what God ought to be like. That gave me some certainty of the experience. What reference do you have to compare to know it is God?
There are many inner stages -- one after another -- once one start getting inner experiences -- one can take outside guru's help to accelerate the process in climbing stages. But, it is NOT advisable before one get any inner experience.
 

Ancient Soul

The Spiritual Universe
Sorry! I don't want to say that your respected guru/teacher is wrong.
But, as I already told in the starting.. I have my own understandings about creator. I don't relay on anybody else's understandings. :)

Btw.. example of coffee was just to make you understand that God is not just the word "God".
Like, one need to drink coffee in order to know the taste of coffee. similarly, one need to drink God in order to understand the taste of God.

Meditation = drinking God.

ENOUGH with the God=food metaphors already!!!
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
What value would that knowledge have?

I have to assume the reality as presented by my senses.

That is a first person subjective answer. It doesn't decide if you are in a Boltzmann Brain universe or not. I asked for knowledge and you gave a psychological answer.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
Everything that exists, so far as we know, appears to have come from a single source. We do not know what that source is, how it is, or why it is. And yet it appears to be the origin of everything.

Scientists call it a "quantum singularity", but that really means nothing, as the label holds no content; just conjecture. Most people call it "God" and then fill in the blank with all kinds of images and stories and ideals and metaphors. But that's all conjecture, too. So I decided to just be honest about it and let the mystery be what it is: a mystery. And I'll endeavor to trust in it as best I can.

Out of curiosity...
Is it fair to assume that this God concept you hold doesn't put forth any specific demands about how others should behave?

To clarify, not talking about general concepts like the brotherhood of man, or equality of creation.
 
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