Freedom versus Death: The essence of Upanishadic teaching

[atanu]

Note: I have consciously posted this under 'Science and Religion', expecting some scientific input. However, mods may move this post appropriately, if required.

We are all deluded that we are the body that generates the mind. We come to believe that we (the selves) take birth as bodies which enjoy some fleeting bliss and many travails and eventually die painful deaths. This is the common materialistic worldview.

The Vedantic-Advaitic-Idealistic view is diametrically opposite and may come as an unbelievable shock to those who hear of it for the first time. As per the Vedanta, in deep sleep, we are pure potential awareness — nothing is known in deep sleep since the realm is non-dual; it being devoid of any sort of contrast of sound, touch, taste, sight, or smell. It is pure dense potential awareness. From the pure potential awareness of the deep sleep arises the subtle dream body to which the mind attaches and experiences a subtle world. This manifestation is entirely mental, devoid of input from senses. But, while in a dream, our experiences of pain or joy are not unreal. Only on waking, we come to know the unreality.

Again when dream transitions to waking, senses open up and in association with mind, it shows us a gross world and a gross body that is used for experiencing inputs from five senses — sound, smell, sight, taste, and touch. The touch function is killing, it delineates a boundary as if — necessary for sexual enjoyment etc. — and this leads to the idea “I am this body”. This association and all associated pains will last till the death of the body unless one enquires deeply and gets rid of the false notion “I am this body” and finds that “I am” is distinct.

Till the ignorance “I am this body” lasts, all actions take place to fulfil the needs of the body and mostly these actions conflict with actions originating from other bodies.

The funny thing is this. It is a fact that we (as body-mind) have not created our faculty of awareness, of mind, of intellect and of senses — and the multiform universe. All these are given to us. Remember that in deep sleep we exist blissfully as non-dual potential awareness wherefrom all these arise. The Mind-Intellect knows not as to how these creations arise. But the mind believes that the created objects are real and that the awareness with which it discerns the objects to be a product of the seen objects. The mind tries to fabricate stories as to how the seen mental sensual objects have created the “I am” awareness. This is, in my understanding, a magical faith. The mind is fooled into believing that the very objects that mind-senses perceive are the sources of the self-awareness. The materialistic presumption that a mind born of a mechanism can understand the mechanism of its own birth, is in my opinion, an absurd belief.

However, once a person hears the aforesaid that unborn awareness is the reality upon which all mind-sense objects subsist, there is a chance that intellect may analyse the facts. The intellect may guide the mind to introvert and find its own source. A fraction of folks will succeed and will be freed of the bondage of the notion of birth-death for the self. But hearing of the Vedanta is auspicious for all.

This, in my opinion, is the essence of the Upanishadic teaching that can tear away the veil of ignorance, known as mAyA.

...

 

[Terry Sampson]

We are all deluded that we are the body that generates the mind. We come to believe that we (the selves) take birth as bodies which enjoy some fleeting bliss and many travails and eventually die painful deaths. This is the common materialistic worldview.

However, once a person hears the aforesaid that unborn awareness is the reality upon which all mind-sense objects subsist, there is a chance that intellect may analyse the facts. The intellect may guide the mind to introvert and find its own source. A fraction of folks will succeed and will be freed of the bondage of notion of birth-death for the self.

As a rule, I reserve this challenge for my fellow Abrahamic minions, but it's 4:24 a.m., I'm awake, and I'm in the mood to challenge someone.

Now, I love a good paradox as well as those who are more clever than me but, personally, I prefer those which are perfect paradoxes, and I just happen to think that the Mind-Body Paradox isn't a perfect paradox, ... except, perhaps, to odd folks who, for some odd reason, think that all "bodies" are equally material, perceivable, and detectable while all "minds" are equally immaterial, imperceivable, and undetectable.

If, however, (IMO) all bodies are not equally material, imperceivable, and undetectable AND all minds are material, but not equally so, it seems to me that the Mind-Body Paradox ceases to be a paradox, no?

In which case, I think a true paradox would be something like:

• Something can come from nothing,
• Purple justice, or
• Some portion of Newton's Absolute Space is aware.

And, I say, true paradoxes would be perfect nonsense.

 

[Fool]

Note: I have consciously posted this under 'Science and Religion', expecting some scientific input. However, mods may move this post appropriately, if required.

We are all deluded that we are the body that generates the mind. We come to believe that we (the selves) take birth as bodies which enjoy some fleeting bliss and many travails and eventually die painful deaths. This is the common materialistic worldview.

The Vedantic-Advaitic-Idealististic view is diametrically opposite and may come as an unbelievable shock to those who hear of it for the first time. As per the Vedanta, in deep sleep, we are pure potential awareness — nothing is known in deep sleep since the realm is non-dual; it being devoid of any sort of contrast of sound, touch, taste, sight, or smell. It is pure dense potential awareness. From the pure potential awareness of the deep sleep arises the subtle dream body to which the mind attaches and experiences a subtle world. This manifestation is entirely mental, devoid of input from senses. But, while in a dream, our experiences of pain or joy are not unreal. Only on waking, we come to know the unreality.

Again when dream transitions to waking, senses open up and in association with mind, it shows us a gross world and a gross body that is used for experiencing inputs from five senses — sound, smell, sight, taste, and touch. The touch function is killing, it delineates a boundary as if — necessary for sexual enjoyment etc. — and this leads to the idea “I am this body”. This association and all associated pains will last till the death of the body unless one enquires deeply and gets rid of the false notion “I am this body” and finds that “I am” is distinct.

Till the ignorance “I am this body” lasts, all actions take place to fulfil the needs of the body and mostly these actions conflict with actions originating from other bodies.

The funny thing is this. It is a fact that we (as body-mind) have not created our faculty of awareness, of mind, of intellect and of senses — and the multiform universe. All these are given to us. Remember that in deep sleep we exist blissfully as non dual potential awareness wherefrom all these arise. The Mind-Intellect knows not as the how these creations arise. But the mind believes that the created objects are real and that the awareness with which it discerns the objects to be a product of the seen objects. The mind tries to fabricate stories as to how the seen mental sensual objects have created the “I am” awareness. This is, in my understanding, a magical faith that the mind can unravel its own source by studying the mental-sensual objects. The mind is fooled into believing that the very objects that mind-senses perceive are the sources of the self-awareness.

However, once a person hears the aforesaid that unborn awareness is the reality upon which all mind-sense objects subsist, there is a chance that intellect may analyse the facts. The intellect may guide the mind to introvert and find its own source. A fraction of folks will succeed and will be freed of the bondage of notion of birth-death for the self. But hearing of the Vedanta is auspicious for all.

This, in my opinion, is the essence of the Upanishadic teaching that can tear away the veil of ignorance, known as mAyA.

...

so if I understand you correctly the dream world would be like the unconscious dream state and this is the subtle body, i've read about.

dreamless sleep is what you term the pure potential awareness? this then would be the causal body?

 

[Native]

This, in my opinion, is the essence of the Upanishadic teaching that can tear away the veil of ignorance, known as mAyA.

And I think "the veil of mAyA" in itself is a veil. The Mind-Body concept is IMO just two sides of the same coin.

 

[atanu]

...

• Some portion of Newton's Absolute Space is aware.

And, I say, true paradoxes would be perfect nonsense.

Oh. That is good. The irony is that we always imagine awareness to be in space.

Can you for a moment change the worldview and envisage that space-time-objects appear and disappear in pure potential awareness? For help, you may think of how space-time-objects arise in dream and waking and disappear again?

...

 

[Fool]

As a rule, I reserve this challenge for my fellow Abrahamic minions, but it's 4:24 a.m., I'm awake, and I'm in the mood to challenge someone.

Now, I love a good paradox as well as those who are more clever than me but, personally, I prefer those which are perfect paradoxes, and I just happen to think that the Mind-Body Paradox isn't a perfect paradox, ... except, perhaps, to odd folks who, for some odd reason, think that all "bodies" are equally material, perceivable, and detectable while all "minds" are equally immaterial, imperceivable, and undetectable.

If, however, (IMO) all bodies are not equally material, imperceivable, and undetectable AND all minds are material, but not equally so, it seems to me that the Mind-Body Paradox ceases to be a paradox, no?

In which case, I think a true paradox would be something like:

• Something can come from nothing,
• Purple justice, or
• Some portion of Newton's Absolute Space is aware.

And, I say, true paradoxes would be perfect nonsense.

a mind is detectable.

there is a complex of three, not two

 

[Fool]

Oh. That is good. The irony is that we always imagine awareness to be in space.

Can you for a moment change the worldview and envisage that space-time-objects appear and disappear in pure potential awareness? For help, you may think of how space-time-objects arise in dream and waking and disappear again?

...

i have only one issue with this statement. the pure potential awareness is an object that has no reference point because of there being no other objects in contrast to it. there is no otherness.


this is understood from my reading of pd ouspensky's a search for the miraculous. in it he relates that a point has no reference to anything else, until there is a second point in which contrast arises.

 

[atanu]

so if I understand you correctly the dream world would be like the unconscious dream state and this is the subtle body, i've read about.

dreamless sleep is what you term the pure potential awareness? this then would be the causal body?

Yes. That is how the Vedanta describes it.

Spoiler: Some details

The whole waking world is a person called Vaisnavara - a creation of mind-senses. It is the gross body. The dream world is a person called Taijjassa - a creation of the mind. It is the subtle body. The deep sleep is called Shushupti - prajna ghana (dense consciousness or pure potential consciousness) and Sarvesvara -- All gods. The mind is absorbed in consciousness and in it lies the causal body (Karana sharira). The subtle body transmigrates as per the contents of the causal body until the pure "I am" gets rid of all associations with the causal and subtle body.

The "I am" is the seer, called the Fourth - the Turiya, that is the seer of the three states. The Turiya is the real Self and is identical with the Truth called Brahman.

 

[Terry Sampson]

Oh. That is good. The irony is that we always imagine awareness to be in space.

Can you for a moment change the worldview and envisage that space-time-objects appear and disappear in pure potential awareness? For help, you may think of how space-time-objects arise in dream and waking and disappear again?

...

Really? IMO, the irony is that there is no other place that awareness can be but "in space".
How about you change your worldview and consider for a moment that only Something can be aware to begin with and that that Something is never not aware and is never potentially aware. For help, you may try imagining Pink Unicorns that dream.

 

[atanu]

Really? IMO, the irony is that there is no other place that awareness can be but "in space".
How about you change your worldview and consider for a moment that only Something can be aware to begin with and that that Something is never not aware and is never potentially aware. For help, you may try imagining Pink Unicorns that dream.

Well. I am sorry that you miss the point of the post. Let us agree to differ rather than being sarcastic.

 

[atanu]

By the way, for your information, I don't listen to fools.

You, I think, are being rude. No one forces you to listen to a fool.

 

[Fool]

Yes. That is how the Vedanta describes it.

Spoiler: Some details

The whole waking world is a person called Vaisnavara - a creation of mind-senses. It is the gross body. The dream world is a person called Taijjassa - a creation of the mind. It is the subtle body. The deep sleep is called Shushupti - prajna ghana (dense consciousness or pure potential consciousness) and Sarvesvara -- All gods. The mind is absorbed in consciousness and in it lies the causal body (Karana sharira). The subtle body transmigrates as per the contents of the causal body until the pure "I am" gets rid of all associations with the causal and subtle body.

The "I am" is the seer, called the Fourth - the Turiya, that is the seer of the three states. The Turiya is the real Self and is identical with the Truth called Brahman.

so this turiya is awareness(wakefulness) where sarvesvara is unawareness and it's an evolutionary process of sorts?

 

[Fool]

By the way, for your information, I don't listen to fools.

buckle your safety belt bud. it's going to be a bumpy ride

 

[atanu]

so this turiya is awareness(wakefulness) where sarvesvara is unawareness and it's an evolutionary process of sorts?

No. Sarvesvara is not unawareness. The mind is unaware of the fullness of the deep sleep state. But Sarvesvara knows as it is. Turiya is the seer. of the three states.

 

[Koldo]

Note: I have consciously posted this under 'Science and Religion', expecting some scientific input. However, mods may move this post appropriately, if required.

We are all deluded that we are the body that generates the mind. We come to believe that we (the selves) take birth as bodies which enjoy some fleeting bliss and many travails and eventually die painful deaths. This is the common materialistic worldview.

The Vedantic-Advaitic-Idealististic view is diametrically opposite and may come as an unbelievable shock to those who hear of it for the first time. As per the Vedanta, in deep sleep, we are pure potential awareness — nothing is known in deep sleep since the realm is non-dual; it being devoid of any sort of contrast of sound, touch, taste, sight, or smell. It is pure dense potential awareness. From the pure potential awareness of the deep sleep arises the subtle dream body to which the mind attaches and experiences a subtle world. This manifestation is entirely mental, devoid of input from senses. But, while in a dream, our experiences of pain or joy are not unreal. Only on waking, we come to know the unreality.

Again when dream transitions to waking, senses open up and in association with mind, it shows us a gross world and a gross body that is used for experiencing inputs from five senses — sound, smell, sight, taste, and touch. The touch function is killing, it delineates a boundary as if — necessary for sexual enjoyment etc. — and this leads to the idea “I am this body”. This association and all associated pains will last till the death of the body unless one enquires deeply and gets rid of the false notion “I am this body” and finds that “I am” is distinct.

Till the ignorance “I am this body” lasts, all actions take place to fulfil the needs of the body and mostly these actions conflict with actions originating from other bodies.

The funny thing is this. It is a fact that we (as body-mind) have not created our faculty of awareness, of mind, of intellect and of senses — and the multiform universe. All these are given to us. Remember that in deep sleep we exist blissfully as non dual potential awareness wherefrom all these arise. The Mind-Intellect knows not as the how these creations arise. But the mind believes that the created objects are real and that the awareness with which it discerns the objects to be a product of the seen objects. The mind tries to fabricate stories as to how the seen mental sensual objects have created the “I am” awareness. This is, in my understanding, a magical faith that the mind can unravel its own source by studying the mental-sensual objects. The mind is fooled into believing that the very objects that mind-senses perceive are the sources of the self-awareness.

However, once a person hears the aforesaid that unborn awareness is the reality upon which all mind-sense objects subsist, there is a chance that intellect may analyse the facts. The intellect may guide the mind to introvert and find its own source. A fraction of folks will succeed and will be freed of the bondage of notion of birth-death for the self. But hearing of the Vedanta is auspicious for all.

This, in my opinion, is the essence of the Upanishadic teaching that can tear away the veil of ignorance, known as mAyA.

...

What part of this narrative can be discussed by science?

 

[Fool]

No. Sarvesvara is not unawareness. The mind is unaware of the fullness of the deep sleep state. But Sarvesvara knows as it is. Turiya is the seer. of the three states.

i'm googling these terms for more in depth understanding. i may have more questions. thanks for the insights

 

[Terry Sampson]

Well. I am sorry that you miss the point of the post.

Actually, I got part of your point, and I challenged the part that assumes that the perfectly immaterial can be purely aware. That latter point doesn't make sense to me any more than Christians who say God exists outside of Time and Space or that God is an immaterial Spirit.

You, I think, are being rude. No one forces you to listen to a fool.

You're talking to a Fool who is on my "Ignore" list and you'll sleep easier if you don't worry about what I think of people on my "Ignore" list.

 

[atanu]

What part of this narrative can be discussed by science?

Good question.

My answer is any part -- provided one is not arrogant or sarcastic. A bit of open-ness to at least entertain an opposite worldview may be helpful. I am not proselytising. Neither am I advertising for Vedanta. It is only to share freely an understanding that has benefitted me psychologically, mentally, and physically. Although not eager for a debate, I am keen to listen to any new information that may modify my worldview.

With the aforesaid in mind, I can point you to a thread which discusses how the Idealism worldview actually is more parsimonious.

Idealism offers a more comprehensive and more parsimonious explanation of reality than materialism

In the above thread, posts #81 onwards deal with pieces of evidence that favour idealism.


...

 

[Aupmanyav]

We are all deluded that we are the body that generates the mind.

The Vedantic-Advaitic-Idealististic view is diametrically opposite and may come as an unbelievable shock to those who hear of it for the first time. As per the Vedanta, in deep sleep, we are pure potential awareness ..

Perhaps you are, I am not. Body, brain and mind seem to be created together in the womb (for an advaitist like me, all creation is illusory).
You know Atanu, I am not an awareness, universal consciousness fan. So I would not discuss it any further here. We have done it so many times, and we are both very firm in our beliefs. So, best wishes for interesting discussion in your thread.

Terry Sampson said: "assumes that the perfectly immaterial can be purely aware."
A little bit more exotic, mystic, occultish than I prefer.

 

[Nakosis]

This, in my opinion, is the essence of the Upanishadic teaching that can tear away the veil of ignorance, known as mAyA.

...

As I view it Maya is the realm of the conscious mind. It is the illusionary realm created by the unconscious mind for consciousness to exist in.

So consciously the self is aware and becomes aware of the inconsistencies of Maya/illusion. We agree that there exists a reality that is beyond our conscious ability to grasp.

One view is that since our experience is illusionary is that there exists an immaterial reality that exists at the foundation of our existence.

What I think is more likely is that there exists a material reality that the unconscious mind creates and immaterial interface through which we experience this material reality. Consciousness requires a very active mind. There are different levels of activity. When we are fully awake the brain is very active. When we dream the brain is not as fully engaged as when we are awake. The level of conscious awareness is not as great. The conscious experience is not as closely tied to actual physical reality.

In deep sleep, consciousness, conscious awareness is virtually non-existent. The self is non-existent at this time. The physical body remains as we all can see when we observe someone sleeping, but the self is gone.

In my view, the material world is actuality, consciousness is the illusion. Non-self, non-duality is the realization that consciousness is the temporary illusion.

 

[sun rise]

What part of this narrative can be discussed by science?

In the Popper sense of something being science only if a theory is falsifiable, probably very little.

But if we allow for a grey area between science and not science, there are aspects of Vedanta that can be approached.

Ian Stevenson's work and continuing work at his university on reincarnation is one such grey area. If a young child with a birth mark says that he was killed by a spear thrust in the birthmark location in a prior life in a particular place and that account is verified, then it's "suggestive" evidence of reincarnation as an explanation while not being proof.

If someone has an NDE and while apparently dead reports accurately on a conversation in another room while the heart is stopped, again it's suggestive of something more than the brain being involved.

In a way, non-local phenomenon which are well known to physics, quantum entanglement, offers a possible explanation but one without current causal proof.

Another aspect is time as an emergent phenomenon according to some theoretical physicists which means that time is not a fundamental and separate property of existence.