Freedom from the illusion of knowing, and having safe ground to stand on

[Mock Turtle]

This is because you have not come across Eastern religions. Of course, one can live without Gods (I do). The benefit is clear vision.

Well I have peeked at a few and looked at Buddhism a bit more - much of which I can see makes a lot of sense, apart from reincarnation. I think being subservient to anything is against my nature.

I have visited Thailand and found the Thais to be (in general) a rather peaceful, respectful, and friendly bunch, which I might presume is down to their Buddhism.

 

[Aupmanyav]

My God, and His appearances and offspring in human form, are not beliefs or premises.

That is why I am a strong atheist Hindu. I do not believe in these stories of Gods and Goddesses.

Do you not see how much contempt you are displaying for most of the world’s Hindus?

No contempt. These are my views. They can have whatever view they like. That is permissible in Hinduism. Hinduism is not a fettering Abrahamic religion.

.. apart from reincarnation.

That means you have not understood Buddhist reincarnation. Buddha said 'you are born anew every moment of your life', 'you cannot put your feet in the same river again', etc. We change every moment. Buddhists do not believe in existence of soul (atma - 'self'). They say 'self' has no substance (anatta). So, there is nothing which can get reborn.

 

[Jim]

Do you not see how much contempt you are displaying for most of the world’s Hindus?

No contempt.

Maybe “contempt” is not the right word for the way you talk about Abrahamic religions and their followers. However that may be, most or all of what you say when you’re denouncing Abrahamic religions and their followers applies just as much to most of the world’s Hindus. Also, incidentally, most of the people in Africa, South America and everywhere else in the world, except possibly some parts of Europe, North America and China.

 

[halbhh]

fettering Abrahamic religion

That's interesting. While it seems from the outside that Islam is pretty fettering, and some forms of Judaism could be (from the outside it appears so), you have run a risk (perhaps you could see) of overgeneralizing. Christianity isn't Islam and isn't just a form of Judaism (though it has a similar origin). What do you yourself think is the "fettering" in Christianity? I'm not trying to debate, but rather to discover your views, and then, if you are interested, to share information about what it's actually like from the inside here (which could never be what someone guesses from the outside, nor what someone thinks they saw at some churches in youth even).

 

[Aupmanyav]

“I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.
You shall have no other gods before me.
You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments."

"Jesus answered, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
"Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us."
"Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?"
"Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work."
...

No proof. All talk.

 

[Mock Turtle]

That means you have not understood Buddhist reincarnation. Buddha said 'you are born anew every moment of your life', 'you cannot put your feet in the same river again', etc. We change every moment. Buddhists do not believe in existence of soul (atma - 'self'). They say 'self' has no substance (anatta). So, there is nothing which can get reborn.

Rebirth then - sloppy of me - but rather similar to reincarnation.

Rebirth (Buddhism) - Wikipedia

 

[halbhh]

“I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.
You shall have no other gods before me.
You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments."

"Jesus answered, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
"Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us."
"Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?"
"Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work."
...

No proof. All talk.

These are certainly both very interesting passages.

Looking at the first one, that's from the Exodus, something like 1400-1500 years before Christ. This quote is a (small) part of the "old covenant", meaning the Judaic covenant.

By full reading through full books that we notice warnings of consequences for major wrongdoing (theft, murder, false witness, sacrificing children to idols, etc.) are made extra clear by hyperbolic and sometimes even frightening graphic details, as we see later in another nearby book that is a continuation.

But, as you read more fully through more books, it becomes clear God does not 'punish' the children for the sins of their parents -- that is not only does He not actively punish, but even it becomes clear later, additionally He will even rescue the children from the disastrous outcomes of the major wrongdoing of their parents(!) -- as we learn later in Ezekiel chapter 18 (see just below). Also, notice only a tiny fraction of "1,000 generations" as passed. That's helpful to look at (this helps us get it that we are seeing a hyperbolic warning.)

4 "For everyone belongs to me, the parent as well as the child—both alike belong to me. The one who sins is the one who will die.
....
14 “But suppose this [man] has a son who sees all the sins his father commits, and though he sees them, he does not do such things:
...
...He does not defile his neighbor’s wife.
16 He does not oppress anyone
or require a pledge for a loan.
He does not commit robbery
but gives his food to the hungry
and provides clothing for the naked.
17 He withholds his hand from mistreating the poor
and takes no interest or profit from them.
He keeps my laws and follows my decrees.

"He will not die for his father’s sin; he will surely live. 18 But his father will die for his own sin, because he practiced extortion, robbed his brother and did what was wrong among his people."
Ezekiel 18 NIV


How many generations have even passed of the hyperbolic "1,000 generations"?

Have a look:

3,400 years/ 25 years per generation = 136 generations to today.

Or until Christ came and changed the Covenant: 1440 years/25 years/gen = ~ on the order of 60 generations.


Should we think it would be another 20,000 years until Christ returns? Very few Christians would expect it will be nearly that long, even though, nevertheless, we do know that we don't know, and that --

2 Peter 3:8 Beloved, do not let this one thing escape your notice: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.

----------------

So, that was just about the first passage, the Judaic Old Covenant. To avoid a super long answer, I'll talk on the 2nd passage in another post.

 

[halbhh]

"Jesus answered, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
"Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us."
"Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?"
"Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work."
...

No proof. All talk.

Last comment first: while you would never understand the gospel from just a few verses (though a few verses can sometimes tell us the most key things!), the idea there is 'no proof' is a familiar objection -- Christ Himself was directly challenged to give more proof, in person, face to face (even though He had healed the blind, the lame, those with leprosy, and even raised the dead). They didn't want to only hear that others they knew were testifying about miracles done, but wanted one on demand.

Cynically.

It seems, with a hostile attitude, like -- "Yeah? Prove it."

In this passage, after slandering Jesus in a major, horrific way in front of the people (just before this, above in the same chapter), next some come to Him and demand He prove Himself with a sign:

[Not long after vilely slandering Jesus they come to Him:]
38 Then some of the Pharisees and teachers of the law said to him, “Teacher, we want to see a sign from you.”

39 He answered, “A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. 40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. 41The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and now something greater than Jonah is here. 42 The Queen of the South will rise at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for she came from the ends of the earth to listen to Solomon’s wisdom, and now something greater than Solomon is here."
Matthew 12 NIV


He quotes to them from their scriptures, and basically tells them: NO, you will get no sign but that which requires trust/faith (and it seems they will hear of this only 2nd hand later, that He rose from the dead, they will hear and have to choose whether to trust, without much help (unless they become humble we learn!)).

So, they said: PROVE IT.

And He responds: No, you get no proof.

They demanded. With a nasty, vile attitude. Not a loving or friendly way.

Imagine:
It's like as if someone comes to you hearing you can fix a major problem with their car or one of a friend, and instead of asking you in a friendly way or offering anything, or a normal way of asking, instead scoffs at you in a hostile way. Mocks you in a major way.

And also is arrogant, and clearly willing to pretend you didn't fix cars before, and in the future, you can see....

Would you then work to fix the car of the hostile person that is unfriendly and tries to make you look like a fake?

I would not. I'd tell them they are doing a wrong. If they truly repented of the wrong, then I would help them.

That's actually the rules: if you repent of your wrongs to God, then He will help you.

And that even applied to those that had died without a chance to hear about Christ, we learn in 1rst Peter chapter 3 (v18-20) -- He went to the "spirits in prison", those dying without the gospel, where those dying in the Flood are the instance given, and makes proclamation to them. They get a chance, since they never heard before.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Should we think it would be another 20,000 years until Christ returns? Very few Christians would expect it will be nearly that long, even though, nevertheless, we do know that we don't know, and that --

Only that is correct. You do not know and you refuse to investigate. You just believe that the universe came about 6,000 years ago and Adam lived for 900 years.

It seems, with a hostile attitude, like -- "Yeah? Prove it."

Oh! If we ask you to prove what you say then we are arrogant and hostile?!

 

[Straw Dog]

NOTE: This is not posted in a debate forum, and it is not about science and religion, or about objective reality or truth. It’s about a question that came to me while I was thinking about some ways that I think I see people misrepresenting and misusing research reports and religious scriptures.

One of the ways that I see people validating and excusing their prejudices, delusions, animosities and hostilities is with what they think they know from science or from religious scriptures, some safe ground that they think they’re standing on. Just now I was wondering what ground I think I’m standing on, and it might be that I don’t have any illusion any more of knowing anything or having any safe ground to stand on. Then I was wondering, where does my assurance or confidence come from, to do anything that I’m doing?

Is there anyone else here who doesn’t feel any need to know anything or to have any safe ground to stand on? If so, where do you think your assurance or confidence comes from, to do what you do? Maybe, could it just be a natural consequence of freedom from the illusion of knowing and of having safe ground to stand on?

Even within a state of groundlessness, there may be coherence between different beliefs or experiences over time... like putting pieces of a puzzle together.

Personally, my sense of confidence comes from an ill-conceived devil-may-care attitude, which I wouldn’t recommend to everybody. I literally live my life a quarter-mile at a time... like I’m just making this up as I go along. It’s an improvisational art form. It is fun though.

I do have a plan, but it’s tentative. I have no idea what I’m actually going to do tomorrow. It’s more of a discovery rather than a decision. I’ve never felt more free from dogma though.

 

[halbhh]

You do not know and you refuse to investigate. You just believe that the universe came about 6,000 years ago and Adam lived for 900 years.

Unless you have a degree in physics or chemistry, I frankly doubt you even understand very well how it is that we know that Earth is 4.55bn +/- 1% years old, or how we currently estimate the Universe is 13.8bn years old.

But I do, for both.

Is there any other wildly wrong and opposite of reality guesses you want to assert on zero basis about what I think or believe?

Something else you want to just throw out there for me to respond to? I'm willing to give you another 1 or 2 minutes today or tomorrow.

Suggest: don't imagine you are telepathic. If you thought you were, it doesn't seem to be working.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Unless you have a degree in physics or chemistry, ..

Same here. I did a Bachelor's in Physics and Geology. I understand what I am talking about. Unfortunately, you seem to have forgotten what you may have learnt and have returned to Bible.

 

[halbhh]

Same here. I did a Bachelor's in Physics and Geology. I understand what I am talking about. Unfortunately, you seem to have forgotten what you may have learnt and have returned to Bible.

Good.

Be so kind then, if you will, to not paint those YEC errors onto me, please.

 

[syo]

NOTE: This is not posted in a debate forum, and it is not about science and religion, or about objective reality or truth. It’s about a question that came to me while I was thinking about some ways that I think I see people misrepresenting and misusing research reports and religious scriptures.

One of the ways that I see people validating and excusing their prejudices, delusions, animosities and hostilities is with what they think they know from science or from religious scriptures, some safe ground that they think they’re standing on. Just now I was wondering what ground I think I’m standing on, and it might be that I don’t have any illusion any more of knowing anything or having any safe ground to stand on. Then I was wondering, where does my assurance or confidence come from, to do anything that I’m doing?

Is there anyone else here who doesn’t feel any need to know anything or to have any safe ground to stand on? If so, where do you think your assurance or confidence comes from, to do what you do? Maybe, could it just be a natural consequence of freedom from the illusion of knowing and of having safe ground to stand on?

I test. What else can I do?