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Featured Free Will

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Fool, Dec 23, 2018.

  1. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon shunyadragon
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    One liner assertions of personal opinion does not reflect the current scientific and academic view,which reflects that the question of Free Will has not been resolved.
     
  2. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon shunyadragon
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    No mistake here,and I do not confuse philosophy with science. It is your modus operendi to reject science in favor of religious belief.

    Yes,and no basis from the perspective of science..

    Natural determinism has a firm foundation in science by the objective verifiable evidence concerning the nature of our physical existence. The question of 'Hard Determinism' describing the nature of human will has philosophical and other assumptions as your video indicates. A great deal of the nature of being is naturally deterministic, but the question of the degree and nature of human will remains unresolved.

    This reflects your view of appealing to religious belief, which are as problematic as the extremes referenced, and again no I do not appeal to the philosophical views.

    This particular reference only deals with the extreme views,which are not likely reality. The other videos referenced concerning compatibilism and other possibilities are likely more reasonable options.

    Compatibilism - Bibliography - PhilPapers - Good beginning tounderstand compatibilism and alternatives to extreme views of hard determinism or libertarian free will.

    "Compatibilist views of free will hold that free will is compatible with causal determinism. Classical compatibilists argued that determinism does not entail that agents lack alternative possibilities. They often advanced conditional accounts of alternatives (eg, the agent can do otherwise if, were she to want to do otherwise, she would). In more recent times, compatibilists have often denied that we need a power to do otherwise for freedom. Most contemporary compatibilists hold that free will is compatible with but does not require determinism. So-called Hobartian compatibilists hold that determinism is required for free will."

    See also "The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy - McKenna 2008 - is excellent. Though he is not (quite) a compatibilist himself, Fischer 2007 is a thorough articulation and defence, as is Haji 2002." referenced in the above.

    and . . .

    http://www.informationphilosopher.com/books/scandal/Dennett.pdf

    The reality is the issue is unresolved conclusively.
     
    #62 shunyadragon, Dec 26, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2018
  3. Sleeppy

    Sleeppy Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.

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    Is that clever wording?
     
  4. Sleeppy

    Sleeppy Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.

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    Psychology, sociology, biology and history all say otherwise. But, I am aware that the overwhelming majority find usefulness, and comfort in it.
     
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  5. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon shunyadragon
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    False, Psychology,sociology, biology and history do not support your one-sided extreme assertion.

    Compatibilism - Bibliography - PhilPapers - Good beginning tounderstand compatibilism and alternatives to extreme views of hard determinism or libertarian free will.

    "Compatibilist views of free will hold that free will is compatible with causal determinism. Classical compatibilists argued that determinism does not entail that agents lack alternative possibilities. They often advanced conditional accounts of alternatives (eg, the agent can do otherwise if, were she to want to do otherwise, she would). In more recent times, compatibilists have often denied that we need a power to do otherwise for freedom. Most contemporary compatibilists hold that free will is compatible with but does not require determinism. So-called Hobartian compatibilists hold that determinism is required for free will."

    See also "The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy - McKenna 2008 - is excellent. Though he is not (quite) a compatibilist himself, Fischer 2007 is a thorough articulation and defence, as is Haji 2002." referenced in the above.

    and . . .

    http://www.informationphilosopher.com/books/scandal/Dennett.pdf

    The reality is the issue is unresolved conclusively.
     
  6. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon shunyadragon
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    It reflects your unsupported extreme view.
     
  7. Sleeppy

    Sleeppy Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.

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    "They often advanced conditional accounts of alternatives (eg, the agent can do otherwise if, were she to want to do otherwise, she would)."

    I'm not sure what this means to you, but....

    That's not a description of free will. It's a description of will being determined by varying factors.
     
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  8. Sleeppy

    Sleeppy Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.

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    How would you (or a compatibalist) define 'free will'?

    You only have but two options: either cause and effect, or some degree of spontaneity, neither of which describe freedom.
     
  9. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon shunyadragon
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    Selective referencing without putting it in context gets you no where. Compatibilism and other proposals that propose a limited free will in a deterministic world clearly acknowledge that the limits of 'determining factors' limit human choices, but do not eliminate possible human choices within the limits set by determining factors.
     
    #69 shunyadragon, Dec 26, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2018
  10. Ponder This

    Ponder This Well-Known Member

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    What does 'free' mean?
    Free from something.
    Freedom from what?
    Freedom from control or restraint.
    Controls or restraint by what?
    Freedom from control or restraint of others.
    To be free is to not be under the power of others.

    It's very significant because in law we know that if a man is forced by another, then it means he did not act of his free will. This is part of how the law determines blame for unlawful actions.

    So in terms of one's relationship with God, some people are fond to blame their actions on God, and some people say we are to blame for our actions. So... which is it?

    In terms of science, some people say your choices are predetermined by external influences and some people say you have autonomy. Which is it?

    Think about a car driving down the road and there is a line in the middle of the road and the rule is: Don't cross the line. Is the driver of the car free to drive or not?
    Some will say, the line is a restraint upon the driver.
    Some will say the driver could choose to cross the line if he really wanted to.
    Some will say the driver is free to choose a destination.
    Some will say his destination is restrained by the locations that the roads may lead to.

    The arguments will go round and round, but no matter what the 'rules of the game' are, let us not forget that it is the chess player who decides where the chess pieces are going. It is the pawn that claims free will is an illusion.
     
  11. syo

    syo Well-Known Member

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    Yes! Free will is a great gift!
     
  12. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon shunyadragon
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    None of the above necessarily describe nor define the potential reasons behind the ability of humans make choices. It is possible that some choices are 'rational' choices between limited alternatives. Human free will is the ability to make choices within a limited range of possible outcomes constrained by determining factors. Hard determinism would propose that human choice is limited to one outcome for each decision constrained by determining factors.

    Cause and effect or chain of previous outcomes of cause and effect events or choices may limit choices, based on objective evidence, but there is no evidence that they would limit the outcome to one choice.
     
    #72 shunyadragon, Dec 26, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2018
  13. Sleeppy

    Sleeppy Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.

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    You're missing the point here:

    Why choose one "rational choice" over the other(s)? If there is a reason, that's determinism. If there is no reason, that's spontaneity. Which is it? There is no third option.
     
  14. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    A bit of advice: After already describing the situation and having it ignored, don't expect a direct answer. It ain't in the compatibilist handbook. ;)

    .

    .
     
    #74 Skwim, Dec 26, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2018
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  15. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon shunyadragon
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    Why, people can possibly reason through the possible choices allowable that have been limited by determinism. It is possible that different possible choices have equal deterministic value, and the decision has been determined by 'reason.'.

    No, determinism may limit the possible rational choices and allow more than one possible choice that falls within the determined limited possible choices.
     
    #75 shunyadragon, Dec 26, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2018
  16. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon shunyadragon
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    So far you have not been shown to be able to read sources,nor give a direct coherent answer other than your absolute one-sided assertion to your extreme view.
     
  17. Sleeppy

    Sleeppy Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.

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    Two equal forces pushing against each other don't move. That's called a 'deadlock.'

    If there is nothing to break the deadlock, there is no decision made. You need something to break the deadlock, whether that be some factor that determines a greater force, or spontaneity.
     
  18. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon shunyadragon
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    No in this case it is just a matter of a rational free will choice.

    Free Will
     
  19. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    It's obvious shunyadragon has very little understanding of determinism, ("It is possible that different possible choices have equal deterministic value,") so I wouldn't expect he'll understand of your point. But I have to give you credit for tryin'.

    .
     
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  20. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon shunyadragon
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    I noticed neither of you have read, referred to nor refuted the references,nor have you provided your own. All you have done is simply 'stone wall' your own extreme view. Opinions do not carry any weight in a constructive dialogue.
     
    #80 shunyadragon, Dec 26, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2018
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