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Free Will. What is it? And do we have it?

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
I disagree in that God gives us the ability to choose. We don't know what is going to happen so we have free will. Just because God knows everything that does not mean we don't have free will.
I know in the end Hamlet will kill Claudius. Hamlet simply has no choice in this matter. He will kill and be killed. When I write my own stories, though the characters may think about choices and options, in reality they have none because I know what's going to happen. If the outcome is known, there is no free agency involved.
 

DavidFirth

Well-Known Member
I know in the end Hamlet will kill Claudius. Hamlet simply has no choice in this matter. He will kill and be killed. When I write my own stories, though the characters may think about choices and options, in reality they have none because I know what's going to happen. If the outcome is known, there is no free agency involved.

That's true if and only if the subject person performing the action already knows the outcome. If he doesn't know then he has free will to do whatever he will do.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
That's true if and only if the subject person performing the action already knows the outcome. If he doesn't know then he has free will to do whatever he will do.
If the outcome is known, the agent has nothing more than the illusion of free will because the outcome is already determined, and nothing the agent can do will change that.
 

Enoch07

It's all a sick freaking joke.
Premium Member
I think assignment of gender to a creative entity to be somewhat chaotic,
isn't it ?

Third-person pronoun - Wikipedia

An exert;

In such cases a gender-specific, usually masculine, pronoun was traditionally used with a purported gender-neutral meaning; such use of "he" was also common in English until the latter half of the 20th century but some regard it as outmoded[3] or sexist.[4]

Gender specific 3rd person pronouns have generally always leaned towards he or him. It is only with butt hurt pc culture in the past 30 years has it become an issue. This is grade school English grammar stuff guys.

:facepalm:
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
Okay, you don't get it, that's okay.
What don't I get? You are trying to say that even if the outcome of an event is known and determined, the acting agent being oblivious to the outcome is evidence of free will. But that doesn't suggest free will, it suggests that free will is only an illusion. If god knows how Joe's life will unfold, what events will take place, and how it will end, nothing Joe can do can change. That isn't free will, but determinism.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
I don't know about others, but for me rejecting free will has made me so much more aware of the things that do influence me, often enough unconsciously. Seeing the influence "as it happens" is also easier. You realize your will is not free, but yet end up gaining power over things most people are unaware of and dismiss entirely. When you let go of it, you have to go deeper. Much like with god.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
What is Free will?

the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion. meaning our choice's cannot be based or caused by variables outside our control.

example. I like heavy metal. the reasoning for my liking it is due to my father playing it when I was little. if I am choosing an iron maiden song I have a high probability of picking one he use to play. my choice in picking it was decided by my upbringing along with which type of music I like. along with my current mood and thoughts, which are not consciously controllable but are caused by the events of the day.

my decision was decided based on those factor's subconscious and not consciously. as anything thought up consciously first passes through the subconscious and our decisions already made before we consciously agree to one or the other. while you still make the decision you don't really have a say in it.

Humans are thought to have the power to Veto our subconscious's desisions. but really it would already be decided before we consciously Veto it. for example, if I am needing to make a choice and I flip a coin. my following through with the outcome or ignoring it and making my own decision anyways was already decided before seeing the outcome of the coin, or was decided the moment I saw it.

its a complex thing as every choice you make if you truly want to see how little power you have you can look at as many variables that lead you to need to make it in the first place. and think about why you are choosing A or B.

from first a Science perspective.

the big bang. current theory and most evident theory of the origin of the universe. some simple light switch on,
the reason for the Earth being able to house life is due to its seemingly random luck of being in the right place at the right time.


your being born was due to 1000s of years of actions and variable's outside your control. whether it was a fish like creature millions of years ago eating this over that, or one of your human ancestors developing a mutation like having blonde hair and blue eye's that other humans found valuable and so mated with and kept safe from conquers or invaders. everything leading to your birth. your taste and ideals are directly caused by either your upbringing or genetics. having an aptitude for painting, for example, may affect your outlook as well.

so in short while you can make choices your choices are decided by variables that happened long before your choice. and everything falling just in the right place for you even to be born, and in short already deciding your choice before you make it.

so we have no Free Will.

From a Religious perspective, let us base it on the Abrahamic Faith's

God is omniscient. all knowing he knows what will happen what has happened and what will ever happen.
he knew everything that was ever going to occur before speaking the first word and creating the universe he knew Adam would eat the apple of knowledge before he made Adam. he knew Lucifer *in Christianity* would rebel and fail and screw up everything before he even made him.

everything is going according to plan as everything can be drawn back to him. he is the ultimate cause the ultimate pusher.
if something is not going according to plan its because he wants it to because if he didn't he could have fixed it before it happened.

since God knew what would happen and created the universe knowing it would happen. then its already decided to happen. and you have no power over that, so you have no free will.

some would argue "oh well he just let it happen the choice is still your's" no as he caused it to happen by letting it happen. he is omnipotent he has unlimited power. he is not even bound by the same logic as we are that's why he is nicknamed the God of the Paradox.

For both Science and Religion

Many in both camps dislike this though it hurts their fee'fees and they see it as depressing, this showing the arrogance of Man thinking the universe revolves around them and that they have any real power over it. they don't. you don't.

what does this mean? it does not mean go out and kill because it was "predetermined", though you're doing so would simply back my point as your choice to do or not do so was caused by reading this and your reading this caused by owning a computer or device. your coming to this site caused by upbringing and personal ideal's whether governed by emotion and I can go on and on and on but I won't.

your rejecting or accepting this Truth is based on your own personal ideal's which are either affected by upbringing also or intelligence.

really whether you accept this or not changes nothing. as we all still go through life thinking we have power over anything. as such is Human nature. another thing you didn't choose to have. and can never break away from unless you cease to be human.

Closing Statement

"Whats the probability of drawing the ace of spades from a deck with no jokers? Normally it would be 1/50. But what if it's a brand new deck? The position of cards in a new deck are typically identical, so that means if you take out the jokers and draw the card at the very bottom, it's the ace of spades almost 100% of the time. Oh, that's right! I didn't say a word about it being a new deck. Rather, you didn't ask. Being in the "no" gives you the power to turn the probability of winning from 1.92% to 100%. The more knowledge of a party will be the inevitable victor." -Sora .(No Game No Life)

that's a little quote to take to heart. the more Knowledge one has the more variable's one can process. the less chaotic and undetermined the Universe seems. and the more Orderly and predetermined it is, is revealed.

it's why while I am not Good at things like Poker or games seemingly based on luck. I have a deep respect for those who are Good at it.

Anyhow while I will probably completely disagree with your thoughts on it I would love to hear them. so comment your thoughts down below.

Bye.

You have limited free will. After all, I have limited free will also. You can will to live another day and a terrorist can will destructive actions and you get caught in the cross fire.

We all have limited free will. God has free will too. :)
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
Well, yes, of course I did. I also realize that it hurt your pride for me to say that. Oh well, sacrifice of pride is required in order to reach the truth.
Just to be clear. :) "Had to," not in the sense that you felt it was worth saying, but in the sense that you could do no differently. :p

.
 

Ponder This

Well-Known Member
people don't impose order. the order is the natural effect. go read up and play a thing called the Chaos Game. random actions breed order whether we wish them to or not


It could be argued that our consciousness is merely the inevitable reflection of the universe itself.
 

Repox

Truth Seeker
The primary argument for free will is theological. Briefly, if God created creatures to enjoy His love and to worship Him, and creatures have free will to accept or reject Him, then free will is essential. Otherwise, God created creatures to be robots; they obey and worship God without choices. It is also an important matter for Satan, God’s rebellious angel. If God created Satan to disobey God, then there would be no such thing as evil. Throughout the Old Testament are many stories about the consequences of disobeying God. Therefore, we have an issue with regard to obedience to God in heaven, as well as here on earth.
 

`mud

Just old
Premium Member
Who created the angels, and when ?
What instilled them with evil ?
And.....point to Hell and satan !
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
This is one of those questions that is both fascinating and frustrating at the same time.

One big issue is what is even means to have free will. To say it means having the ability to act without the constraints of necessity or fate is problematic: what does 'necessity' mean? how about 'fate'? Both seem problematic.

One question that has already appeared here is whether free will and determinism can be reconciled. I think there is such a possibility. So, when *I* make a decision to act a certain way, we could say that I have free will if I *could* have made a different decision. But such a different decision would mean that 'I' felt differently, so the actual question is whether 'I' could have made a different decision if I had felt like it or if I had wanted to.

But that is an opening for determinism. For me to 'feel like it' would mean the constraints are at least slightly different, which would mean *even in a deterministic system* that the results could be different.

But we are not all the way there yet. We would have questions about free will if the *reason* I felt different was something external instead of something 'within me'. If there was a puppet master manipulating me into action and the *decision* comes not from me, but from the puppet master, then we could say that free will is violated.

Also, we don't expect that there is *always* free will. For example, if I fall out of an airplane, I do not have the 'free will' to not fall. I am subject to the law of gravity and no amount of will can change that. But, again, this is similar to the puppet master (gravity, in this case) over-ruling my desires.

So, let's get an example going to clarify things. Suppose that I am putting on my shoes and I decide to put on my left shoe before I put on my right shoe. For convenience, we can also assume that
they are equally far from me so they are just as easy to reach.

The *decision* happens within *my* brain. In other words, *I* am the one that made the decision. If my mental (brain) state had been slightly different, I may well have made a different decision. Furthermore, any changes in the scenario would only affect my decision *if* they affected my mental state. So, it definitely seems to me that *I* am making the decision and if I had felt differently, I could have made a different decision. That seems like free will to me. But it is all consistent with strict determinism.

The point is that any decision happens in an incredibly complex situation involving an incredibly complex human brain. MOST of the variables that actually affect the decision happen inside that brain (at least in enough cases to be relevant). And that means that *I* have made the decision and could have made a different one if I had wanted to (different brain state). And that means we have 'free will' in at least some sense even in a deterministic setting.

Now, those who don't like this conclusion should say *exactly* what you think 'free will' should mean. Do you really expect nothing in our past to affect our decisions? That would be pure randomness. So *of course* our history affects our decisions! But that doesn't mean *we* aren't the one making them!
 

`mud

Just old
Premium Member
I always wonder in my wanderings, what is the 'now' that we talk about.
'Now' is never here, it goes like the gentle winds of our thinking,
or a hurricane of emmence power, only dissapearing in a wisp.
'Free will' is like that, and so are bumper cars, and falling from planes.
It's not the falling that becomes the 'now', nor the falling itself,
it's the sudden stop that becomes the tempory 'now'.
But......that 'now' vanishes also, when the next 'free will' comes.
Let's wish the 'stop' doesn't bring loss of cognizance,
like our death permantly, that will 'stop' all of our 'free will' forever !
~
Just a thought, because of Poly's thread.....really good thread sport !
 

Little Lunch

Atheist
You wake up in the morning, have a shower and eat bacon and eggs for brekkie.
If someone could rewind time without you knowing, back to when you first woke up, would you do anything differently?
Would you get out the other side of the bed, decide not to shower and eat scrambled eggs instead?
What is the mechanism that makes you choose, that enables your free will?
Aren't your choices made by your preceding history, your personality and the environmental circumstances within which you inhabit?
To argue for free will, why do you not have to explain how you can choose independently of these three factors?
Apart from, because god said so.
Everything that has ever happened in the universe leads you to what you will do next.
It's too complex for you to notice so it's not even worth worrying about.
Accepting or not accepting it makes no difference.
In my opinion, the only advantage to knowing it's happening is that you might better understand why other people act differently to you.
That there is no good or evil. There just is what is.
 

Club Tropícana

New Member
You're free to do what you choose to do but you aren't free to choose what you'll choose to do. All thoughts, intentions, choices and actions are predated and are created by neuropsychological activity within our brains. There's no reason scientifically speaking to believe that if we could run back the clock of your life and hit play that you could have behaved differently or chose differently than you did. I am free to finish this sentence however I wish, it's my own free choice and therefore my own free will but if you look behind the curtain my decision to use the words I have in the way I have, to make the points I've made, the parts I have deleted or changed whilst writing this and my level of satisfaction with what I've written before pressing "post reply" were all determined by physical processes in my brain in which I had no control over.
 
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