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Free Will. What is it? And do we have it?

Father

Devourer of Truth
What is Free will?

the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion. meaning our choice's cannot be based or caused by variables outside our control.

example. I like heavy metal. the reasoning for my liking it is due to my father playing it when I was little. if I am choosing an iron maiden song I have a high probability of picking one he use to play. my choice in picking it was decided by my upbringing along with which type of music I like. along with my current mood and thoughts, which are not consciously controllable but are caused by the events of the day.

my decision was decided based on those factor's subconscious and not consciously. as anything thought up consciously first passes through the subconscious and our decisions already made before we consciously agree to one or the other. while you still make the decision you don't really have a say in it.

Humans are thought to have the power to Veto our subconscious's desisions. but really it would already be decided before we consciously Veto it. for example, if I am needing to make a choice and I flip a coin. my following through with the outcome or ignoring it and making my own decision anyways was already decided before seeing the outcome of the coin, or was decided the moment I saw it.

its a complex thing as every choice you make if you truly want to see how little power you have you can look at as many variables that lead you to need to make it in the first place. and think about why you are choosing A or B.

from first a Science perspective.

the big bang. current theory and most evident theory of the origin of the universe. some simple light switch on,
the reason for the Earth being able to house life is due to its seemingly random luck of being in the right place at the right time.


your being born was due to 1000s of years of actions and variable's outside your control. whether it was a fish like creature millions of years ago eating this over that, or one of your human ancestors developing a mutation like having blonde hair and blue eye's that other humans found valuable and so mated with and kept safe from conquers or invaders. everything leading to your birth. your taste and ideals are directly caused by either your upbringing or genetics. having an aptitude for painting, for example, may affect your outlook as well.

so in short while you can make choices your choices are decided by variables that happened long before your choice. and everything falling just in the right place for you even to be born, and in short already deciding your choice before you make it.

so we have no Free Will.

From a Religious perspective, let us base it on the Abrahamic Faith's

God is omniscient. all knowing he knows what will happen what has happened and what will ever happen.
he knew everything that was ever going to occur before speaking the first word and creating the universe he knew Adam would eat the apple of knowledge before he made Adam. he knew Lucifer *in Christianity* would rebel and fail and screw up everything before he even made him.

everything is going according to plan as everything can be drawn back to him. he is the ultimate cause the ultimate pusher.
if something is not going according to plan its because he wants it to because if he didn't he could have fixed it before it happened.

since God knew what would happen and created the universe knowing it would happen. then its already decided to happen. and you have no power over that, so you have no free will.

some would argue "oh well he just let it happen the choice is still your's" no as he caused it to happen by letting it happen. he is omnipotent he has unlimited power. he is not even bound by the same logic as we are that's why he is nicknamed the God of the Paradox.

For both Science and Religion

Many in both camps dislike this though it hurts their fee'fees and they see it as depressing, this showing the arrogance of Man thinking the universe revolves around them and that they have any real power over it. they don't. you don't.

what does this mean? it does not mean go out and kill because it was "predetermined", though you're doing so would simply back my point as your choice to do or not do so was caused by reading this and your reading this caused by owning a computer or device. your coming to this site caused by upbringing and personal ideal's whether governed by emotion and I can go on and on and on but I won't.

your rejecting or accepting this Truth is based on your own personal ideal's which are either affected by upbringing also or intelligence.

really whether you accept this or not changes nothing. as we all still go through life thinking we have power over anything. as such is Human nature. another thing you didn't choose to have. and can never break away from unless you cease to be human.

Closing Statement

"Whats the probability of drawing the ace of spades from a deck with no jokers? Normally it would be 1/50. But what if it's a brand new deck? The position of cards in a new deck are typically identical, so that means if you take out the jokers and draw the card at the very bottom, it's the ace of spades almost 100% of the time. Oh, that's right! I didn't say a word about it being a new deck. Rather, you didn't ask. Being in the "no" gives you the power to turn the probability of winning from 1.92% to 100%. The more knowledge of a party will be the inevitable victor." -Sora .(No Game No Life)

that's a little quote to take to heart. the more Knowledge one has the more variable's one can process. the less chaotic and undetermined the Universe seems. and the more Orderly and predetermined it is, is revealed.

it's why while I am not Good at things like Poker or games seemingly based on luck. I have a deep respect for those who are Good at it.

Anyhow while I will probably completely disagree with your thoughts on it I would love to hear them. so comment your thoughts down below.

Bye.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member

popcorn-and-drink-smiley-emoticon.gif


.
 

Father

Devourer of Truth
A moral person exerts free will by engaging personally and choosing and not simply accepting what is given.
you cant go against your programming. other than Death, you are bound by your biological and psychological tendencies. it's not a matter of not doing something. it's that whatever you do was already determined by outside variable's or inside variables neither of which you have personal conscious control over.

if your decision is based on past experience that's environmental. if it's based on a hunch. that can be biological. either way, your choice is bound by something and if you follow back your reason for choosing it you will come across many variables you didn't choose.

your being Christian for instance is probably from growing up and raised by Christians or in a society proemial Christian. if you were born in Palestine you would be Muslim. your choice of being Christian is not a choice it's a predetermined factor that you yourself now are Christian. you may convert to something else but that will be due to small instances of variable experience with other religions. and not a weighing of both religions 100% without bias and making a logical decision.

the only instances one could come close to free will would be an AI making decisions but even then an Ai is bound by programming and environmental stimulus like us. so its funny to say we have free will when a machine does not. when even AI is just given the ability to learn through experience it's still bound by programming and environment
 

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
you cant go against your programming. other than Death, you are bound by your biological and psychological tendencies. it's not a matter of not doing something. it's that whatever you do was already determined by outside variable's or inside variables neither of which you have personal conscious control over.
I think that is looking at it too passively. People impose order on a chaotic world. In between is free will.
 

Father

Devourer of Truth
I think that is looking at it too passively. People impose order on a chaotic world. In between is free will.
people don't impose order. the order is the natural effect. go read up and play a thing called the Chaos Game. random actions breed order whether we wish them to or not

 

Father

Devourer of Truth
I think that is looking at it too passively. People impose order on a chaotic world. In between is free will.

we may, however, be thinking on two different plane's I am not saying one can not make a choice I am saying their choice is not 100% within their conscious to make and is determined by a uncountable number of variables most of which happened and had nothing to do with them.

and so if you measure all those variables like domino's you can easily predict someone's actions. and if it is predictable it is predeterminable.
 

osgart

Nothing my eye, Something for sure
much of what happens to me is predetermined but how I respond to it.

anyway you would notice if somehow your government decided you have no free will anymore. the world would be drastically different.

I mean is a quantum computer invention predetermined, I think not. as if something like that is inevitable.

if people did have no free will you'd be very very bored, and it would look silly and hopelessly mundane.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
Free will is an illusion. By the time we consider cultural influence and genetic predispositions alone, there is just no room left to claim free will exists.
 

Father

Devourer of Truth
Yes I was talking about something else which was focusing on exercising our will and not letting things happen.

Returning to what you want to discuss about absolute determinism: it is questionable whether anything can be accurately predicted. Its also questionable whether atoms move in a deterministic fashion.

that I don't know. if you went far enough down on the scale of things you can see things popping in and out of existence seemingly randomly.
 

Father

Devourer of Truth
Free will is an illusion. By the time we consider cultural influence and genetic predispositions alone, there is just no room left to claim free will exists.
Pretty much. the only being possibly bearing free will is dare I say "God" if there is one. my position is there is but even then I don't know if it is bound by some Laws either.
 

corynski

Reality First!
Premium Member
What is Free will?

the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion. meaning our choice's cannot be based or caused by variables outside our control.

example. I like heavy metal. the reasoning for my liking it is due to my father playing it when I was little. if I am choosing an iron maiden song I have a high probability of picking one he use to play. my choice in picking it was decided by my upbringing along with which type of music I like. along with my current mood and thoughts, which are not consciously controllable but are caused by the events of the day.

my decision was decided based on those factor's subconscious and not consciously. as anything thought up consciously first passes through the subconscious and our decisions already made before we consciously agree to one or the other. while you still make the decision you don't really have a say in it.

Humans are thought to have the power to Veto our subconscious's desisions. but really it would already be decided before we consciously Veto it. for example, if I am needing to make a choice and I flip a coin. my following through with the outcome or ignoring it and making my own decision anyways was already decided before seeing the outcome of the coin, or was decided the moment I saw it.

its a complex thing as every choice you make if you truly want to see how little power you have you can look at as many variables that lead you to need to make it in the first place. and think about why you are choosing A or B.

from first a Science perspective.

the big bang. current theory and most evident theory of the origin of the universe. some simple light switch on,
the reason for the Earth being able to house life is due to its seemingly random luck of being in the right place at the right time.


your being born was due to 1000s of years of actions and variable's outside your control. whether it was a fish like creature millions of years ago eating this over that, or one of your human ancestors developing a mutation like having blonde hair and blue eye's that other humans found valuable and so mated with and kept safe from conquers or invaders. everything leading to your birth. your taste and ideals are directly caused by either your upbringing or genetics. having an aptitude for painting, for example, may affect your outlook as well.

so in short while you can make choices your choices are decided by variables that happened long before your choice. and everything falling just in the right place for you even to be born, and in short already deciding your choice before you make it.

so we have no Free Will.

From a Religious perspective, let us base it on the Abrahamic Faith's

God is omniscient. all knowing he knows what will happen what has happened and what will ever happen.
he knew everything that was ever going to occur before speaking the first word and creating the universe he knew Adam would eat the apple of knowledge before he made Adam. he knew Lucifer *in Christianity* would rebel and fail and screw up everything before he even made him.

everything is going according to plan as everything can be drawn back to him. he is the ultimate cause the ultimate pusher.
if something is not going according to plan its because he wants it to because if he didn't he could have fixed it before it happened.

since God knew what would happen and created the universe knowing it would happen. then its already decided to happen. and you have no power over that, so you have no free will.

some would argue "oh well he just let it happen the choice is still your's" no as he caused it to happen by letting it happen. he is omnipotent he has unlimited power. he is not even bound by the same logic as we are that's why he is nicknamed the God of the Paradox.

For both Science and Religion

Many in both camps dislike this though it hurts their fee'fees and they see it as depressing, this showing the arrogance of Man thinking the universe revolves around them and that they have any real power over it. they don't. you don't.

what does this mean? it does not mean go out and kill because it was "predetermined", though you're doing so would simply back my point as your choice to do or not do so was caused by reading this and your reading this caused by owning a computer or device. your coming to this site caused by upbringing and personal ideal's whether governed by emotion and I can go on and on and on but I won't.

your rejecting or accepting this Truth is based on your own personal ideal's which are either affected by upbringing also or intelligence.

really whether you accept this or not changes nothing. as we all still go through life thinking we have power over anything. as such is Human nature. another thing you didn't choose to have. and can never break away from unless you cease to be human.

Closing Statement

"Whats the probability of drawing the ace of spades from a deck with no jokers? Normally it would be 1/50. But what if it's a brand new deck? The position of cards in a new deck are typically identical, so that means if you take out the jokers and draw the card at the very bottom, it's the ace of spades almost 100% of the time. Oh, that's right! I didn't say a word about it being a new deck. Rather, you didn't ask. Being in the "no" gives you the power to turn the probability of winning from 1.92% to 100%. The more knowledge of a party will be the inevitable victor." -Sora .(No Game No Life)

that's a little quote to take to heart. the more Knowledge one has the more variable's one can process. the less chaotic and undetermined the Universe seems. and the more Orderly and predetermined it is, is revealed.

it's why while I am not Good at things like Poker or games seemingly based on luck. I have a deep respect for those who are Good at it.

Anyhow while I will probably completely disagree with your thoughts on it I would love to hear them. so comment your thoughts down below.

Bye.
Thank you, Father, for a great discussion...... I, too, think 'free will' is an illusion. Free will would only be chaos if it were a reality. We have the illusion of having the final word regarding what we do or think, but how could that be true? The subject is so complex and emotion ridden it would take pages and pages to adequately cover it. My feeling is that our consciousness is like the rider on a horse. We think we are guiding the horse, but actually the horse is making the decisions ultimately. Rough analogy true, and a much, much better discussion of free will can be found in MIT's Marvin Minsky's 1985 book "The Society of Mind", which covers the subject far beyond what I could comprehend, over 300 pages of how the mind works. Here is his conclusion:

"Everything, including that which happens in our brains, depends upon these and only these: A set of fixed, deterministic laws, or a purely random set of accidents...... There is no room on either side for any third alternative. Whatever actions we may 'choose', they cannot make the slightest change in what might otherwise have been -- because those rigid, natural laws already caused the states of mind that caused us to decide that way. And if that choice was in part made by chance -- it still leaves nothing for us to decide."

So Minsky is saying that life is a deterministic process. That there are no 'gaps' in reality for originality to arise. But this conflicts with our requirements for a personal 'responsibility', where we are taught that 'we' are responsible for our actions and thoughts, when actually that freedom is an illusion. Minsk concludes: "No matter that the physical world provides no room for freedom of will: that concept is essential to our models of the mental realm. Too much of our psychology is based on it for us to ever give it up. We're virtually forced to maintain that belief, even though we know it's false....."

But religion is a system that is based upon the notion of freedom of the will......of freedom of choice.... and these must exist if someone is to be rewarded or punished........
 
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DavidFirth

Well-Known Member
I disagree in that God gives us the ability to choose. We don't know what is going to happen so we have free will. Just because God knows everything that does not mean we don't have free will.
 

Father

Devourer of Truth
I disagree in that God gives us the ability to choose. We don't know what is going to happen so we have free will. Just because God knows everything that does not mean we don't have free will.

re-read what you said. "Just because he knows what we are going to do, and made us knowing we were going to do it, and aligned every variable so we would do it, we still have a choice?" that makes no logical sense

that's like saying me programming AI to absorb information given and act on it and feeding it Mein Kampf and it becoming AI Hitler. was not directly caused by me and instead its choice.

all humans are. are computers in a sense. flawed little grotesque little chemical computers. we either evaluate and add environmental information and adapt to it. or act on inside genetic programming based on millions of years of Evolution.

while you may dislike that it does not really matter what you like. it only matters what is.
 

SalixIncendium

अग्निविलोवनन्दः
Staff member
Premium Member
I personally don't think it matters one way or the other, with one notable exception...

If you favor free will over determinism or visa versa, and found out the opposite was true, how would that impact the way you currently live your life?
 

Father

Devourer of Truth
I personally don't think it matters one way or the other, with one notable exception...

If you favor free will over determinism or visa versa, and found out the opposite was true, how would that impact the way you currently live your life?

it would mean there is no God. it would mean no absolute beginning. the only way it would be possible is if the chain of domino's and variable never has a start. and that everything is just a collection of events with no end or beginning. what caused B to happen? you cant see A and C is never going to occur. it means the being trapt in a Purgatory of events. as nothing can truly end in such a case. if there was no beginning.

Free Will is Madness.
fbb7c3bd8eedb5400e4069ad18f9b99e.jpg
 

SalixIncendium

अग्निविलोवनन्दः
Staff member
Premium Member
it would mean there is no God. it would mean no absolute beginning. the only way it would be possible is if the chain of domino's and variable never has a start. and that everything is just a collection of events with no end or beginning. what caused B to happen? you cant see A and C is never going to occur. it means the being trapt in a Purgatory of events. as nothing can truly end in such a case. if there was no beginning.

Free Will is Madness.
fbb7c3bd8eedb5400e4069ad18f9b99e.jpg

That didn't really answer my question, though, did it?

Surely finding out the opposite is true would change your perspective, but what impact would it have on how you live your life? What decisions you make? Why you make them?
 

DavidFirth

Well-Known Member
re-read what you said. "Just because he knows what we are going to do, and made us knowing we were going to do it, and aligned every variable so we would do it, we still have a choice?" that makes no logical sense

that's like saying me programming AI to absorb information given and act on it and feeding it Mein Kampf and it becoming AI Hitler. was not directly caused by me and instead its choice.

all humans are. are computers in a sense. flawed little grotesque little chemical computers. we either evaluate and add environmental information and adapt to it. or act on inside genetic programming based on millions of years of Evolution.

while you may dislike that it does not really matter what you like. it only matters what is.

But He didn't make us do anything. He gave us the choice even though He already knew what choice we'd make.
 

`mud

Just old
Premium Member
I think assignment of gender to a creative entity to be somewhat chaotic,
isn't it ?
I think the advent of Moses somewhat chaotic !
 
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