Free will deniers

[Koldo]

Yes but not necessarily until the point of making a choice. As I see it there is the point at which a choice is before me prior to any motivation considered. At this point what choice I make is not yet determined. The "ultimate" motivation is developed though the consideration process, not before.

I am not sure I completely understood you. Can you elaborate?

 

[Koldo]

Men do that all the time. Having sex.
They choose what they want to do.
It's not choosing what needs to be done.
Nobody forces you to have sex.

Do you understand the difference between choosing what to do and choosing what you want to do?

 

[muhammad_isa]

"An agent S has the ability to choose or do otherwise than ϕ at time t if and only if it was possible, holding fixed everything up to t, that S choose or do otherwise than ϕ at t."

I think you are making it more complicated than it needs to be..

"An agent is free to do otherwise, if he can do otherwise if he WANTS to do otherwise."

 

[Trailblazer]

How do you choose between two different alternatives if not by figuring out what you want to do that most?

Why do you think I would always be choosing between two alternatives? I might just want to do something and choose to do it and then do it.

What was the last time you chose what you want to do (rather than choosing what to do)?

I choose to do what I want to do, unless there is something I have to do that I don't want to do, in which case I might do it even if I don't want to do it, like go to a meeting at work.

 

[Curious George]

Ok, then that certainly shouldn't be part of the criteria of what free will is.

Agreed. I think the argument of freewill revolves around determinists asserting that humans have zero control, and people who believe humans have some degree of control.

This control is often spoken about as the ability to have done otherwise. This only suggests that there is some degree of control and the future was not set prior to some degree of control being exerted.

 

[Trailblazer]

Do you understand the difference between choosing what to do and choosing what you want to do?

I don't understand the difference.

 

[Augustus]

The capacity for a conscious agent to choose from two or more alternative actions or beliefs without any external or deterministic constraints (including their own biology and upbringing) beyond their control that would affect their decision.

This is a very basic definition

While there are many ways of viewing free will, that seems like an extremely high threshold

 

[Estro Felino]

Do you understand the difference between choosing what to do and choosing what you want to do?

Explain it to me.

 

[Estro Felino]

While there are many ways of viewing free will, that seems like an extremely high threshold

You come from Erasmus' land...
the guy who wrote De libero arbitrio...
Come on

 

[Trailblazer]

I don't think you even understand what 'free will' means and entails in philosophical debates. I genuinely see you still being stuck into believing that merely being able to make choices without coercion entails having free will... even though you have already been explained that you are completely misguided...

Being able to make choices without coercion entails having a will... How free we are to make any given choice depends upon many factors.
Certainly, free will is constrained by many factors such as ability and opportunity. I cannot choose to go to Europe tomorrow just because I want to.

 

[Trailblazer]

You didn't answer my questions about sex.
When you have sex, you have it because someone forces you to do that?

No, men have it because they want it, not because they need it.

 

[Trailblazer]

I think you are making it more complicated than it needs to be..

"An agent is free to do otherwise, if he can do otherwise if he WANTS to do otherwise."

Remember the red shirts and the blue shirts?

 

[Koldo]

Why do you think I would always be choosing between two alternatives? I might just want to do something and choose to do it and then do it.

Making a choice entails picking between multiple alternatives (at least two).

I choose to do what I want to do, unless there is something I have to do that I don't want to do, in which case I might do it even if I don't want to do it, like go to a meeting at work.

Great. It is the same for me.
Why would you do something you don't want to do (such as when you have to do something you don't want to do)?

I would do it because I don't want to face the consequences of not doing it.

 

[Koldo]

I don't understand the difference.

If I choose what to do, I am choosing what course of action I will take.
If I choose what I want to do, I am choosing my will itself. To illustrate, if I can choose my will, I can choose to want to sleep early today, rather than merely proceeding to sleep early today.

 

[Koldo]

Explain it to me.

If I choose what to do, I am choosing what course of action I will take.
If I choose what I want to do, I am choosing my will itself. To illustrate, if I can choose my will, I can choose to want to sleep early today, rather than merely proceeding to sleep early today.

 

[Koldo]

Being able to make choices without coercion entails having a will...

Even if there is coercion, there is a will.

How free we are to make any given choice depends upon many factors.
Certainly, free will is constrained by many factors such as ability and opportunity. I cannot choose to go to Europe tomorrow just because I want to.

Sure. Otherwise, the existence of free will would require omnipotence.

 

[Estro Felino]

If I choose what to do, I am choosing what course of action I will take.
If I choose what I want to do, I am choosing my will itself. To illustrate, if I can choose my will, I can choose to want to sleep early today, rather than merely proceeding to sleep early today.

One question: when you have sex with someone, are you choosing what to do?
or are you choosing what you want to do?

 

[Trailblazer]

Making a choice entails picking between multiple alternatives (at least two).

I am not so sure that when we make a choice we are consciously thinking of another choice we could have made. I can give you many examples.
I choose to scoop the litter boxes every morning, but I am not thinking that I could do something else instead... I just scoop them.

Great. It is the same for me.
Why would you do something you don't want to do (such as when you have to do something you don't want to do)?

I would do it because I don't want to face the consequences of not doing it.

I don't do anything I don't want to do unless I cannot live with the consequences of not doing it.
There are always consequences for not doing something I might not want to do.

 

[Estro Felino]

No, men have it because they want it, not because they need it.

Exactly.
And they have standards. They don't have sex with anyone.

 

[Koldo]

The capacity for a conscious agent to choose from two or more alternative actions or beliefs without any external or deterministic constraints (including their own biology and upbringing) beyond their control that would affect their decision.

This is a very basic definition, however: there are a lot of other details in the concept of free will that make me see it as incoherent.



"Deny" is a loaded word to use here because it seems to imply rejection of an established or evidenced phenomenon. I don't "deny" free will any more than I deny the existence of dragons and fairies, since I don't believe it is a coherent concept to begin with.

While there are many ways of viewing free will, that seems like an extremely high threshold

I would slightly change his definition which may however make a ton of difference.

The final part is:"... that would affect their decision."

'Affect' is to be expected within the framework of free will. I would use the word 'determine'.