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Fred Thompson expains the bailout

Discussion in 'Consumer Affairs' started by YmirGF, Jan 8, 2009.

  1. PureX

    PureX Veteran Member

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    Stupid people love gross over-simplifications like this. It makes them feel as though they're really "smart", and that it's everyone else; you know, all those college educated economists that are really the stupid ones. And for some odd reason, republicans in particular like to play this 'stupid is really smart, while smart is really stupid' game.

    George Bush's solution has been to throw 350 billion dollars at the very people who crashed the market in the first place, with no strings attached. The result is that 350 billion dollars is gone, and we have absolutely nothing to show for it but the perpetuation of the very people and institutions who created the problems. The problems, however, remain un-addressed.

    At least Obama wants to get the country something for the money. At least we would get some updated infrastructure, and maybe some inroads into some new and healthier technologies.
     
    #21 PureX, Jan 12, 2009
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2009
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  2. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Crazy Diamond

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    I kinda liked his line saying the money was only there for companies who screwed up really bad. I wish Uncle Sam would throw me just even a few grand because I screwed up really bad a couple years ago living off credit cards while I was laid off from work. I bet a small/local business could screw up worse than any Wall Street or Auto industry, and not get a dime. The Germans did screw up REALLY bad when they done away with the Neon when Daimler bought our Chrysler. An opportunity would be to put it back on the market as a hybrid. That alone could probably singly handedly save Chrysler. But, why do something to make your own money when there is a big handout just waiting for you?
     
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  3. YmirGF

    YmirGF Bodhisattva

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    I think the greatest danger lies in the assumption that those in control now actually know what they are doing. It is little more than a confidence game, imo.

    Then again, it could just be lipstick on a pig.

    All this aside, I think the video was 'classic' Fred. I don't believe the video was ever intended to be taken completely seriously, but rather, I think it was designed to be more of a head's up that perhaps we should not be quite so willing to believe the plans that are being cooked up on our behalf. In my opinion, Fred is just taking pot-shots at our notion that everything is in good hands, under firm control and that perhaps we should be a more than a bit wary of what our leaders are telling us.
     
    #23 YmirGF, Jan 12, 2009
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2009
  4. doppelganger

    doppelganger Through the Looking Glass

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    Bingo! And why is that? Because Fred and his Friends encouraged lower interests rates, and reduced restrictions on predatory lending practices to increase borrowing to create the illusion of economic growth. At the same time, our "fiscally conservative" Republican government was boosting spending to all-time highs while simultaneously pushing through tax cuts so that we now don't have the money available for a real crisis. The reason they did this: because monkeying around with the interest rates to stimulate excessive borrowing by consumers would mask temporarily the long-term deleterious effects of deregulation, job exports, the trade deficit and stagnating wages - all of which translated into short-term $$$ for politicians and key lobbyists and business interests - on growth and the health and stability of the economy.

    Fred doesn't know jack.

    Even Alan Greenspan, who should have known better, now admits the obvious elephant in the room that Fred is ignoring. If you celebrate greed as the highest civic virtue and then give people the opportunity to benefit without regulation in the short-term with the expectation that the long-term consequences of their decisions will be someone else's problem - they will destabilize the economy.
     
    #24 doppelganger, Jan 12, 2009
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  5. YmirGF

    YmirGF Bodhisattva

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    I think that Mr. Greenspan would be the first to admit that hindsight is 20/20. Tell me Dopp, if Alan Greenspan didn't notice it or pay attention to it before, I think we can forgive lesser minds for not heeding it either or are you saying that the NeoCon's know economics better than the experts like Greenspan?
     
  6. doppelganger

    doppelganger Through the Looking Glass

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    That's idiotic. It was obvious to everyone not blinded by ideology. It's been obvious since 1929. Our representatives over the last 15-20 years (and really, going back to Reaganomics) chose to ignore it because they were blanketed with wall-to-wall lobbyists giving them campaign money, fancy dinners and lavish vacations, and the lobbyists were representing interests who sought to benefit in the short-term at the long-term expense of everyone.

    No. Where did you get that idea from what I wrote? :sarcastic
     
  7. YmirGF

    YmirGF Bodhisattva

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    Why thank you, Dopp. You are too kind.


    The current economic situation would tend to negate this assertion, Dopp. Evidently it wasn't all that obvious to those who had the influence to change things.


    Actually, I'd peg this to be in the last 30-40 years, Dopp. It has just been in feeding-frenzy mode in the last while.



    ...well... you did say...

    1. You are saying that an elephant is in a room and that its presence is obvious. (i.e. no one could possibly miss it)
    2. You are saying that Fred is ignoring the elephant in the room (in other words, Fred knows the elephant is there -- he is just pretending that it is not.)
    2. You are saying that Alan Greenspan, who should have known better, now admits (now recognizes or sees) this elephant in the room. (I guess he was blinded by ideology. In effect, Greenspan overlooked the elephant probably because he thought it was a lobbyist, but on second look, he realizes that it actually is an elephant and not a lobbyist.)
    3. In this way, Fred, by your own description was aware of the elephant where Greenspan was not, as Fred recognized what it was from the get go.

    Need any more, or no?
     
  8. Sunstone

    Sunstone De Diablo Del Fora
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    I think Thompson is quite sincere in believing he knows more than people educated in economics know. Thompson has an arrogance about him that is only matched or exceeded by those who endorse his views.
     
  9. doppelganger

    doppelganger Through the Looking Glass

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    To those with the influence to change things . . . no, they were blinded by "conservative" ideology, and on the gravy train, as I said. :yes:

    I would tend to agree with that. It was certainly at least in its infancy when Nixon was in the White House (and when your hero Fred Thompson was secretly playing double agent leaking information from the Watergate investigation to its target in contravention of his duties as a Senator involved in that investigation).

    Not all would put a heroic sheen on Thompson's Watergate role - The Boston Globe

    Of leopards and their spots:


    Elephants are frequently missed. Hence the metaphor.



    Correct.

    Correct. And others saw it long before this.

    No. Fred is ignoring it now because he's trying to get gullible people to believe that it's not acceptable to blame deregulation of markets for the problems in which we find ourselves. He's hoping lots of people get duped into misunderstanding what actually happened so they can do more of it in the future. Alan Greenspan, OTOH, admits what many of us were already quite able to see - deregulation was wrecking the economy while the leadership in Washington was hosting lobbyist-funded $500/plate dinners - mutual parasites for whom we are playing host.

    Paul, the problem in yours and Fred's argument is that it fundamentally misunderstands how all that money disappeared, how individuals were able to bring the economy to near ruin for their short-term gain, and how this was concealed by the very credit practices Fred and Republican friends benefitted from while they were facilitating it.

    Those who refuse to learn from the past are doomed to repeat it. Don't get fooled again, Paul.

    What was that "flaw"? The failure to account for the rather obvious fact that greed will make people favor themselves to the harm of others if they can get away with it. That's an elephant in the room.
     
    #29 doppelganger, Jan 12, 2009
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  10. Sunstone

    Sunstone De Diablo Del Fora
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    Are you actually suggesting, Paul, that those who had the influence to change things in the last 30 to 40 years also had the best interests of the common people at heart? If so, that's a highly entertaining notion you've got there, Paul.
     
    #30 Sunstone, Jan 12, 2009
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2009
  11. PureX

    PureX Veteran Member

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    Well, I don't know who the hell Fred's talking to, then, because I know of no one that thinks we're in good hands or that the government knows what it's doing. What the Bush administration did was outrageous, and oddly enough it was only a few republicans that even grumbled about it. And they quickly buckled as soon as they were offered a few trinkets. So now 350 BILLION dollars have already vanished! Just like that. And we got nothing at all to show for it. Not a thing.

    Yet Fred wants to 'poo-poo' Obama's plan when he #1, knows little about economics, and #2 wants to just ignore the fact that Bush has just thrown away 350 Billion dollars!

    Typical Fred, alright! Typical republican willful ignorance and slander. What a loser!
     
  12. YmirGF

    YmirGF Bodhisattva

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    Oh good grief.
     
  13. YmirGF

    YmirGF Bodhisattva

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    You are far more intelligent than I, Dopp. I will take your word for it, though I am not convinced that anything is really going to change.

    It still remains to be seen who has been fooled, Dopp. I suspect that it will take a few years for all the dust to settle. For now, let's agree to disagree and we'll revisit this in 3-5 years. Deal?

    And you see this changing sometime soon? If so, to me, that is a bit naive.
     
  14. YmirGF

    YmirGF Bodhisattva

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    My god Phil, you are so close to my position here that all you need to do is belly up to the bar and complete the chain. This is my point -- the people in the past have not had our best interest at heart and it is a bit naive to imagine that anything is GOING to change. As I advised Dopp, let's revisit this in 3-5 years and discuss who has been shining who ... my bet is that the public will still be getting the butt end of the stick c/o the newest stick-handlers who are then trying to explain their own failures.
     
  15. Reverend Rick

    Reverend Rick Frubal Whore
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    Phil, you where against the bail out just a few months ago. Does it bother you that you and Fred actually agreed on something?

    Now, to answer your question, I'm not so sure it will help the nations economy by saving more, but the cost of gasoline a few months ago really opened some folks eyes. Many folks are putting their credit cards away and actually spending less. It helps their personal economy to have six months worth of expenses put back.

    The people who are paying off their debt and socking some cash away are taking personal responsibility for their finances. It will help them personally when crap hits the fan. Most people will pay on their credit cards with a stimulus check. Knowing this factoid, are you in favor of borrowing more money our children have to pay back for everyone to get another check from the government?

    I cannot wait for the Obama honeymoon to be over. I believe many conservatives will come to like our new President while many Liberals will feel betrayed. It is almost like they don't listen to our President Elect when he says we will ALL have to make sacrifices. Too many folks think the rich folks are going to pay for everything and their lives are going to be just peachy. Wait till they get the bill for nationalised health care. They will be screaming, I have to pay for this too?

    Meet the new boss, same as the old boss, we just got fooled again!
     
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  16. Buttercup

    Buttercup Veteran Member

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    Sure, it's always good to say as much as you can. It's often easier said than done, however. One of the best lessons learned from my father is to, "save first, pay bills and everything else second". It's good advice I think.
     
  17. Buttercup

    Buttercup Veteran Member

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    There is absolutely no way I could ever believe McCain would have been better for our country. Not a fat chance in hell.
     
  18. Sunstone

    Sunstone De Diablo Del Fora
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    Thank you for answering my question!!! :)
     
  19. Sunstone

    Sunstone De Diablo Del Fora
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    Rick, let me ask a slightly different question now. What do you think will happen if people increase their savings rate at this time, while we're in a recession -- specifically, will it tend to ameliorate the recession or deepen it? Once again, I'm not interested in arguing here. Just in understanding where you're coming from.
     
  20. Reverend Rick

    Reverend Rick Frubal Whore
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    This is too funny. Bush throws away 350 Billion, but Obama is going to invest the other 350 Billion.

    One is great while the other is terrible and yet they both are equally spending the money that a Democratic Congress approved.

    Bush derangement syndrome at it's finest hour!

    If you where waiting over a year for the FDIC to give you your money and when you slid your card to get gasoline it declined your purchase, you might be singing a different tune about the first 350 billion. The whole world economy needed that money. I'm getting some of it! I am wiring new Banks this year. Go figure?
     
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