Found something about the man on the cross going to paradise.

[Frank Goad]

Luke 23:43--When Jesus was dying on the cross He said to the thief, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in paradise." The Jehovah's Witnesses cult moves to comma to make it read, "Truly I say to you today, you shall be with me in Paradise." They change the Bible to fit their "soul sleep" theology. The phrase "Truly (Verily) I say unto you" is recorded over 70 times in the gospels, but not once "Truly I say unto you today." The thief knew that Jesus was talking to him that day, what he needed to know was when he would be with Him in paradise. Which makes more sense? "Johnny, I am telling you the truth today, I am taking you to the zoo" or "Johnny, I am telling you the truth, today I am taking you to the zoo." Johnny needs to know what day he is going to the zoo, not what day you are talking to him. The meaning is without question: Jesus said he would be with Him in paradise that day

This makes me believe the thief was in paradise that day.Agree?Not agree?Why?Or why no?Please back it up with bible passages if you can.

I got this from this website: https://s3.amazonaws.com/media.clov...8256-2b8bc499f91b/documents/No_Soul_Sleep.pdf

 

[1213]

Luke 23:43--When Jesus was dying on the cross He said to the thief, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in paradise." The Jehovah's Witnesses cult moves to comma to make it read, "Truly I say to you today, you shall be with me in Paradise." They change the Bible to fit their "soul sleep" theology. The phrase "Truly (Verily) I say unto you" is recorded over 70 times in the gospels, but not once "Truly I say unto you today." The thief knew that Jesus was talking to him that day, what he needed to know was when he would be with Him in paradise. Which makes more sense? "Johnny, I am telling you the truth today, I am taking you to the zoo" or "Johnny, I am telling you the truth, today I am taking you to the zoo." Johnny needs to know what day he is going to the zoo, not what day you are talking to him. The meaning is without question: Jesus said he would be with Him in paradise that day

This makes me believe the thief was in paradise that day.Agree?Not agree?Why?Or why no?Please back it up with bible passages if you can.

I got this from this website: https://s3.amazonaws.com/media.clov...8256-2b8bc499f91b/documents/No_Soul_Sleep.pdf

I agree that he went to the paradise. However, maybe the souls sleep can be in some way also possible, at least before Jesus, because of these:

It happened that the beggar died, and that he was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died, and was buried. In Hades, he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far off, and Lazarus at his bosom. He cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue! For I am in anguish in this flame.’ “But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that you, in your lifetime, received your good things, and Lazarus, in like manner, bad things. But now here he is comforted and you are in anguish. Besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, that those who want to pass from here to you are not able, and that none may cross over from there to us.’
Luke 16:22-26

...Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them. They were judged, each one according to his works. Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. If anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 20:12-15

Don’t marvel at this, for the hour comes, in which all that are in the tombs will hear his voice, and will come out; those who have done good, to the resurrection of life; and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment.
John 5:28-29

However, that may have been the situation before Jesus died. By what the Bible tells, when Jesus died, he went to the realm of death and became the Lord of dead also and saved the saints who had died earlier. It may be that all those have died after it, didn't have to go to the "waiting room".

Jesus cried again with a loud voice, and yielded up his spirit. Behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from the top to the bottom. The earth quaked and the rocks were split. The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection, they entered into the holy city and appeared to many.
Matt. 27:50-53

For to this end Christ died, rose, and lived again, that he might be Lord of both the dead and the living.
Romans 14:9

So, because of these, maybe it is so that after Jesus died and was raised, all righteous who die go directly to the paradise.

 

[Bree]

Luke 23:43--When Jesus was dying on the cross He said to the thief, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in paradise." The Jehovah's Witnesses cult moves to comma to make it read, "Truly I say to you today, you shall be with me in Paradise." They change the Bible to fit their "soul sleep" theology. The phrase "Truly (Verily) I say unto you" is recorded over 70 times in the gospels, but not once "Truly I say unto you today." The thief knew that Jesus was talking to him that day, what he needed to know was when he would be with Him in paradise. Which makes more sense? "Johnny, I am telling you the truth today, I am taking you to the zoo" or "Johnny, I am telling you the truth, today I am taking you to the zoo." Johnny needs to know what day he is going to the zoo, not what day you are talking to him. The meaning is without question: Jesus said he would be with Him in paradise that day

This makes me believe the thief was in paradise that day.Agree?Not agree?Why?Or why no?Please back it up with bible passages if you can.

I got this from this website: https://s3.amazonaws.com/media.clov...8256-2b8bc499f91b/documents/No_Soul_Sleep.pdf

if the thief really went to paradise that day, and Jesus said he too would be going with him in paradise that day then answer me this....

Why did Jesus apostles say Jesus was dead in the grave for 3 days? There is no mention of Jesus going to paradise.
1Cor15:3 For among the first things I handed on to you was what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures;+ 4 and that he was buried,+ yes, that he was raised up+ on the third day+ according to the Scriptures;+

Also you would need to explain why someone such as David who was so loved by God, was said to still be in the grave rather than being taken to this supposed paradise where you think the criminal was taken to

Acts 2:29 “Men, brothers, it is permissible to speak with freeness of speech to you about the family head David, that he died and was buried,+ and his tomb is with us to this day.... 34 For David did not ascend to the heavens,


The theology you believe in is not the same theology taught by the Apostles of Jesus. You just need to read the scriptures to know that.

 

[Frank Goad]

if the thief really went to paradise that day, and Jesus said he too would be going with him in paradise that day then answer me this....

Why did Jesus apostles say Jesus was dead in the grave for 3 days? There is no mention of Jesus going to paradise.
1Cor15:3 For among the first things I handed on to you was what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures;+ 4 and that he was buried,+ yes, that he was raised up+ on the third day+ according to the Scriptures;+

Also you would need to explain why someone such as David who was so loved by God, was said to still be in the grave rather than being taken to this supposed paradise where you think the criminal was taken to

Acts 2:29 “Men, brothers, it is permissible to speak with freeness of speech to you about the family head David, that he died and was buried,+ and his tomb is with us to this day.... 34 For David did not ascend to the heavens,


The theology you believe in is not the same theology taught by the Apostles of Jesus. You just need to read the scriptures to know that.

Good point.

 

[Truth in love]

Luke 23:43--When Jesus was dying on the cross He said to the thief, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in paradise." The Jehovah's Witnesses cult moves to comma to make it read, "Truly I say to you today, you shall be with me in Paradise." They change the Bible to fit their "soul sleep" theology. The phrase "Truly (Verily) I say unto you" is recorded over 70 times in the gospels, but not once "Truly I say unto you today." The thief knew that Jesus was talking to him that day, what he needed to know was when he would be with Him in paradise. Which makes more sense? "Johnny, I am telling you the truth today, I am taking you to the zoo" or "Johnny, I am telling you the truth, today I am taking you to the zoo." Johnny needs to know what day he is going to the zoo, not what day you are talking to him. The meaning is without question: Jesus said he would be with Him in paradise that day

This makes me believe the thief was in paradise that day.Agree?Not agree?Why?Or why no?Please back it up with bible passages if you can.

I got this from this website: https://s3.amazonaws.com/media.clov...8256-2b8bc499f91b/documents/No_Soul_Sleep.pdf

For the record while I dislike some of the JW bible adjustments I've known several that were great people.

But onto the topic at hand.

I often see people assuming that paradise is heaven. I don't think that is the case.

While not the most clear in the Bible it would seem that there is a world of spirits that are waiting for judgement.
1 Peter 3:
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
A few other references on this
preach deliverance to the captives, Luke 4:18.
dead shall hear the voice of the Son, John 5:25.
Lord both of the dead and living, Rom. 14:9.

So we could have a waiting room of sorts before the judgement and resurrection.

 

[tigger2]

if the thief really went to paradise that day, and Jesus said he too would be going with him in paradise that day then answer me this....

Why did Jesus apostles say Jesus was dead in the grave for 3 days? There is no mention of Jesus going to paradise.
1Cor15:3 For among the first things I handed on to you was what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures;+ 4 and that he was buried,+ yes, that he was raised up+ on the third day+ according to the Scriptures;+

Also you would need to explain why someone such as David who was so loved by God, was said to still be in the grave rather than being taken to this supposed paradise where you think the criminal was taken to

Acts 2:29 “Men, brothers, it is permissible to speak with freeness of speech to you about the family head David, that he died and was buried,+ and his tomb is with us to this day.... 34 For David did not ascend to the heavens,


The theology you believe in is not the same theology taught by the Apostles of Jesus. You just need to read the scriptures to know that.

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Just because a modern text writer decides where he wants the punctuation and capital-ization to be in his interpretation of the original text (as Westcott and Hort did for the text that is used by the NWT and Nestle did in the text used by the NASB, etc.) does not mean that is how the original Bible writer intended the meaning.

We see The Emphasized Bible by Joseph B. Rotherham also punctuating this scripture to produce the meaning found in the NWT:

“Verily I say unto thee this day: With me shalt thou be in Paradise.”

And the footnote for Luke 23:43 in Lamsa’s translation admits:

“Ancient texts were not punctuated. The comma could come before or after today.”

The Concordant Literal New Testament renders it: "43 And Jesus said to him, 'Verily, to you am I saying today, with Me shall you be in paradise.'"

2001 Translation – An American English Bible: 43 And [Jesus] replied, ‘I tell you this today; you will be with me in Paradise.’

A Critical Lexicon and Concordance to the English and Greek New Testament by E.W.Bullinger, DD., page 811 says:

"'And Jesus said to him, Verily, to thee I say this day, with Me shalt thou be in the Paradise.' The words today being made solemn and emphatic. Thus, instead of a remembrance, when He shall come in...His kingdom, He promises a presence in association (meta, 'with') Himself. And this promise he makes on that very day when he was dying.... Thus we are saved (1) the trouble of explaining why Jesus did not answer the question on its own terms; and (2) the inconvenience of endorsing the punctuation of the [KJV] as inspired; and we also place this passage in harmony with numberless passages in the O.T., such as 'Verily I say unto you this day,' etc.; 'I testify unto you this day.' etc. Deut.vi.6; vii.1; x.13; xi.8;,13,23; xii.13; xix.9; xxvii.4; xxxi.2, etc., where the Septuagint corresponds to Luke xxii.43."

There is no reason to deny the rendering of Luke 23:43 as, “I tell you today, You will be with me in Paradise.”

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[Bree]

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Just because a modern text writer decides where he wants the punctuation and capital-ization to be in his interpretation of the original text (as Westcott and Hort did for the text that is used by the NWT and Nestle did in the text used by the NASB, etc.) does not mean that is how the original Bible writer intended the meaning.

We see The Emphasized Bible by Joseph B. Rotherham also punctuating this scripture to produce the meaning found in the NWT:

“Verily I say unto thee this day: With me shalt thou be in Paradise.”

And the footnote for Luke 23:43 in Lamsa’s translation admits:

“Ancient texts were not punctuated. The comma could come before or after today.”

The Concordant Literal New Testament renders it: "43 And Jesus said to him, 'Verily, to you am I saying today, with Me shall you be in paradise.'"

2001 Translation – An American English Bible: 43 And [Jesus] replied, ‘I tell you this today; you will be with me in Paradise.’

A Critical Lexicon and Concordance to the English and Greek New Testament by E.W.Bullinger, DD., page 811 says:

"'And Jesus said to him, Verily, to thee I say this day, with Me shalt thou be in the Paradise.' The words today being made solemn and emphatic. Thus, instead of a remembrance, when He shall come in...His kingdom, He promises a presence in association (meta, 'with') Himself. And this promise he makes on that very day when he was dying.... Thus we are saved (1) the trouble of explaining why Jesus did not answer the question on its own terms; and (2) the inconvenience of endorsing the punctuation of the [KJV] as inspired; and we also place this passage in harmony with numberless passages in the O.T., such as 'Verily I say unto you this day,' etc.; 'I testify unto you this day.' etc. Deut.vi.6; vii.1; x.13; xi.8;,13,23; xii.13; xix.9; xxvii.4; xxxi.2, etc., where the Septuagint corresponds to Luke xxii.43."

There is no reason to deny the rendering of Luke 23:43 as, “I tell you today, You will be with me in Paradise.”

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The greek language never contained punctuation marks....it has always been up to the translator to place it where he sees fit.

So in order for a translator to place the punctuation mark correctly, he would need to know the context and the entire storyline.

As Jesus was in the grave for 3 days according to other verses regarding his death, there is no reason to believe he told the man that he would see him in paradise on this very day 'today'

A good translator takes all the facts into consideration.

 

[Soapy]

The dead go into a spiritual sleep by their spirit. There is no sense of anything since the spirit of mankind requires a body to function; to sense; to activate through… and that body is decaying in the grave.

Furthermore, the soul; the Person; is judged before they are allotted a place in the kingdom of Jesus.

Even the ELECT have to await the first resurrection.
The abode of these pre-chosen ones is in Heaven and will rule with Christ Jesus as kings and priests over the created world (they take the place of the holy angels who are currently in those ‘Stations’).

Paradise is the place of abode of all else who are to be chosen by Christ at the judgement seat.

NO ONE takes a place in Heaven or in Paradise until AFTER their judgement. And the judgement takes place AFTER Jesus takes his seat as JUDGE…

Therefore, the thief on the cross who had his sins forgiven (and therefore, having died that same day) committed no further sins and is judged worthy for a place IN PARADISE. Being that he was a thief he did not qualify as one of the ELECT who are also pre-judged and considered sinless at the point of judgement.

This thief then is told by Jesus that he will be in Paradise with Jesus. Many have already pointed out that Jesus did not go to Paradise ‘This Day’ (the day he died).

In fact Jesus has not gone to Paradise at any point even NOW!!

NO ONE has gone to Paradise at all YET!!

The saying Jesus made is to be understood in the context that he told the thief that on the day he is judged IN THE SECOND RESURRECTION …HE IS ASSURED A PLACE IN PARADISE.

It is therefore obvious that the verse reads:

• “I tell you this day; You will be in Paradise with me!”

Those out there who cannot read the ‘this day’ into the first part of the statement should consider their language usage as inadequate for this interpretation. It is PERFECTLY IN LINE with the manner in which we read Jesus speaking for him to say:

• ‘Today, I say to you; You will be in paradise with me’
• “I say to you, this day: ‘You will be with me in Paradise’!”

What cannot be a valid translation is:

• ‘I say to you; Today, you will be in paradise with me!’

Or else… what does Jesus mean by ‘Today’ / ‘This day’?

Certainly, ‘today’, ‘this day’, Jesus did not go to Paradise… as already stated…. Why do some people say otherwise? What do they seemingly understand from what makes no grammatical or common sense?

And here is a fact: Truth is found in many places… JW are wrong on many things but Satan knows how to hide a truth IN PLAIN SIGHT. Hide a truth among things that may be incorrect … and the unwary and unholy will immediately claim that even the truth spoken by the wrongful speaker - is a lie!!

No! Do not dismiss a truth even if spoken by a JW… there are far more untruths spoken by those who are NOT JW’s…… !!!