Forms of judaism?

[Flankerl]

I'm going to have nightmares for weeks.

I hope these nightmares are going to be structured.

Also please remember to fill out the proper dream document every morning and check the box that says "Nightmare/Albtraum".

 

[Tumah]

I hope these nightmares are going to be structured.

Also please remember to fill out the proper dream document every morning and check the box that says "Nightmare/Albtraum".

Yes, I know the procedure. Only between the hours of 11pm - 5am. And I should please be prompt.

 

[Flankerl]

Yes, I know the procedure. Only between the hours of 11pm - 5am. And I should please be prompt.

Remember that the offices close early every Friday.

 

[metis]

What I don't like about the whole conversion issue, is that the education and practice of the convert are totally ignored. All anyone cares about is the affiliation of their rabbi.

Actually not in my synagogue either, like Tumah's. A 10 week intro class is required, the rabbi has to be satisfied that one is converting for the right reason, and then off to the bet din and then the mikvah. One of my rabbi's good friends was turned down two or three times before being given the OK.

BTW, when I went through this process some 20 yrs ago, which took 3 & 1/2 quite painful years btw, I felt I was getting close to converting, so I asked my rabbi when should I do it? His response I'll never forget: "You should only convert when you look into the mirror and see a Jew". It took about three more months for me to get to that stage.

 

[Akivah]

I don't know about the other sects, but in Orthodox this is not true.

Not in my experience.

If you see a new person in your shul and the person speaks Hebrew like a native and knows all the prayers and considers themselves to be Jewish, but you find out the rabbi that converted them years ago was Reform, do you care about the knowledge and practice of that person anymore? Do you consider that person to be Jewish?

 

[RabbiO]

I am minded of an article that R' Eliezer Berkovits wrote in the '70s.......

I want to give this the serious reply, or better put the replies, this deserves, since I will break it up into at least two posts to follow, but Tumah's remarks regarding who might be inside the Conservative synagogue that he would not enter, reminded me of a story that encapsulates the difficulty in trying to even begin to set up a framework through which to bring Rabbi Berkovits' ideas to fruition.

So, the story goes, there is Izzy. He has been praying to G-d for weeks regarding the situation in the Middle East. "Ribono Shel Olam, can You not do something to ease the tensions? On both sides there is so much distrust, dislike, disrespect. There must be something You can do." Finally one day a bat kol answers, "Izzy, I have heard your prayers, but please you should pray for something more realistic." Izzy thinks for a moment, then begins to pray, "Adon Olam, Your people are fractured. Between the movements there is so much distrust, disrespect, so much...

Before Izzy can go any further, the voice responds, "So, Izzy, let's talk about that Middle East situation."

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

^ Just great!

 

[Tumah]

Not in my experience.

If you see a new person in your shul and the person speaks Hebrew like a native and knows all the prayers and considers themselves to be Jewish, but you find out the rabbi that converted them years ago was Reform, do you care about the knowledge and practice of that person anymore? Do you consider that person to be Jewish?

No, not Jewish. Knowledge and practice is not what makes a person Jewish.

 

[RabbiO]

Actually not in my synagogue either, like Tumah's. A 10 week intro class is required.....

Only 10 weeks? The URJ's Introduction to Judaism course runs 16 weeks and usually there is additional study with a rabbi. Most of the rabbis I know also require a period of time living Jewishly which runs longer than 10 weeks.

 

[metis]

Only 10 weeks? The URJ's Introduction to Judaism course runs 16 weeks and usually there is additional study with a rabbi. Most of the rabbis I know also require a period of time living Jewishly which runs longer than 10 weeks.

We only attract fast learners at our shul.

As far as the "10 weeks" are concerned, that short a span would be quite a rarity at my shul, I believe. However, I'll have to ask my rabbi (my non-you rabbi), what's the average when I see him this weekend.

Also, I'll check on the length of the class with him as well since I have been known to forget a thing or two over recent decades.

 

[Levite]

Only 10 weeks? The URJ's Introduction to Judaism course runs 16 weeks and usually there is additional study with a rabbi. Most of the rabbis I know also require a period of time living Jewishly which runs longer than 10 weeks.

Yup. The RA recommends a minimum of 3-6 months. I require a year, usually, but in exigent circumstances have gone down to 6 months, when it has also been clear that the potential convert is actively engaging in a Jewish community and vigorously learning ritual practice and Hebrew skills.

 

[metis]

Yup. The RA recommends a minimum of 3-6 months. I require a year, usually, but in exigent circumstances have gone down to 6 months, when it has also been clear that the potential convert is actively engaging in a Jewish community and vigorously learning ritual practice and Hebrew skills.

So, you must then attract the slow-learners. Yep, that creates a rather nice balance when we combine ours with yours.

[Me'tis looks for cover]

 

[Levite]

So, you must then attract the slow-learners.

To use a very rough analogy, if you went to a martial arts school, and they said, "Yup! In just ten easy lessons, you can become a black belt master!" would you believe them? Would you imagine that this school's martial art was effective and valuable?

If something is worth committing to, it is worth learning seriously. And that always takes time, and the effort of challenge. The faster and less challenging one's study is, the less one emerges from it knowing, the less one will be changed by what one learns.

 

[RabbiO]

Really? I didn't know Reform officially believes in G-d...

Reform Judaism is committed to life long learning. In explaining why, the movement sets out certain things about the Reform movement that you probably unaware of about the movement.

"We are Reform Jews, dedicated to lifelong Jewish learning (Torat chayim), and living in sacred covenant (b’rit) with the people (am) and God (Elohim) of Israel. We espouse belief in the following values that are manifest in actions intended to heal the world under God’s sovereignty (l’taken olam b’malchut Shaddai).
Aleinu—It is incumbent upon us to engage:

God—In order to become…
• Jews who can express a theology that reflects understanding and appreciation of classical and contemporary Jewish thinkers.
• Jews who live in Jewish time by celebrating Shabbat and chagim (festivals).
• Jews who invest significant occasions in our lives (machzor hachayim) with specific Jewish meaning through traditional and innovative ritual practice.
• Jews who fulfill the b’rit, the covenant, between God and the Jewish people through the practice of mitzvot, commandments.
• Jews who understand, value, and practice t’filah, prayer.
• Jews who affirm the values of b’tzelem Elohim (being created in the divine image) and tikkun olam (mending the world) by commitment to tzedek (social justice), bal tashchit (environmental protection), chesed (acts of compassion), tzedakah (righteous giving), and k’vod habri-ot (diversity).

Torah—In order to become…
• Jews who study Torah for its own sake (Torah lishmah).
• Jews who continually deepen their commitment to and experience of Judaism through lifelong learning.
• Jews who apply Torah learning to their lives at home, in school, in business, and in social interactions.
• Jews who study Mishnah, Talmud, and other examples of classic Jewish literature (Torah she-b’al peh), interpreted through history and modern Jewish thought, as the foundation for Reform Jewish living and learning.
• Jews who study and use Hebrew as the language of the Jewish people.
• Jews who translate Torah into their lives through ethical behavior.

Israel—In order to become…
• Jews who affirm their connections to Eretz Yisrael (the land of Israel) and M’dinat Yisrael (the State of Israel)
through acts of identification (e.g., study about Israel, tzedakah, travel to Israel, study in Israel, aliyah, twinning with Reform kindergartens, schools, and synagogues).
• Jews who identify actively with K’lal Yisrael, who share responsibility for Jewish life and Jews throughout the world (kol Yisrael areivin zeh ba-zeh).
• Jews who see themselves as members of the Jewish people, inextricably bound to the past, present, and future of Am Yisrael (the people of Israel).
• Jews who are knowledgeable about our people’s past and who derive meaning and comfort from the traditions we have inherited.
• Jews who believe that the mission of the Jewish people includes being l’or goyim—a light to the nations of the world."

 

[Tumah]

Reform Judaism is committed to life long learning. In explaining why, the movement sets out certain things about the Reform movement that you probably unaware of about the movement.

"We are Reform Jews, dedicated to lifelong Jewish learning (Torat chayim), and living in sacred covenant (b’rit) with the people (am) and God (Elohim) of Israel. We espouse belief in the following values that are manifest in actions intended to heal the world under God’s sovereignty (l’taken olam b’malchut Shaddai).
Aleinu—It is incumbent upon us to engage:

God—In order to become…
• Jews who can express a theology that reflects understanding and appreciation of classical and contemporary Jewish thinkers.
• Jews who live in Jewish time by celebrating Shabbat and chagim (festivals).
• Jews who invest significant occasions in our lives (machzor hachayim) with specific Jewish meaning through traditional and innovative ritual practice.
• Jews who fulfill the b’rit, the covenant, between God and the Jewish people through the practice of mitzvot, commandments.
• Jews who understand, value, and practice t’filah, prayer.
• Jews who affirm the values of b’tzelem Elohim (being created in the divine image) and tikkun olam (mending the world) by commitment to tzedek (social justice), bal tashchit (environmental protection), chesed (acts of compassion), tzedakah (righteous giving), and k’vod habri-ot (diversity).

Torah—In order to become…
• Jews who study Torah for its own sake (Torah lishmah).
• Jews who continually deepen their commitment to and experience of Judaism through lifelong learning.
• Jews who apply Torah learning to their lives at home, in school, in business, and in social interactions.
• Jews who study Mishnah, Talmud, and other examples of classic Jewish literature (Torah she-b’al peh), interpreted through history and modern Jewish thought, as the foundation for Reform Jewish living and learning.
• Jews who study and use Hebrew as the language of the Jewish people.
• Jews who translate Torah into their lives through ethical behavior.

Israel—In order to become…
• Jews who affirm their connections to Eretz Yisrael (the land of Israel) and M’dinat Yisrael (the State of Israel)
through acts of identification (e.g., study about Israel, tzedakah, travel to Israel, study in Israel, aliyah, twinning with Reform kindergartens, schools, and synagogues).
• Jews who identify actively with K’lal Yisrael, who share responsibility for Jewish life and Jews throughout the world (kol Yisrael areivin zeh ba-zeh).
• Jews who see themselves as members of the Jewish people, inextricably bound to the past, present, and future of Am Yisrael (the people of Israel).
• Jews who are knowledgeable about our people’s past and who derive meaning and comfort from the traditions we have inherited.
• Jews who believe that the mission of the Jewish people includes being l’or goyim—a light to the nations of the world."

I see. Thanks.

 

[RabbiO]

I see. Thanks.

I would not pretend to minimize the differences that separate us, but I would hope you can appreciate that in many of our core values, our goals and aspirations, we are not so totally different after all.

 

[metis]

To use a very rough analogy, if you went to a martial arts school, and they said, "Yup! In just ten easy lessons, you can become a black belt master!" would you believe them? Would you imagine that this school's martial art was effective and valuable?

If something is worth committing to, it is worth learning seriously. And that always takes time, and the effort of challenge. The faster and less challenging one's study is, the less one emerges from it knowing, the less one will be changed by what one learns.

I understand, and what you and your shul decide to do is obviously your choice. But to be consistent, what about the members of your congregation who really aren't that well versed in Judaism, should they be removed? If not, why not? Why does a potential new member have to jump through all sorts of hoops that us old-timers don't?

Mind you, I certain ain't anti-education, but it seems that we may at times have the cart before the horse. I'm more concerned that we attract people who value involvement in the congregation and the community than I'm concerned about producing Jewish ph.d.'s in theology (OK, granted that's a "bit" of an exaggeration). People who are committed will learn and get involved.

So, it's the emphasis whereas we tend to differ.

 

[Tumah]

I would not pretend to minimize the differences that separate us, but I would hope you can appreciate that in many of our core values, our goals and aspirations, we are not so totally different after all.

Well, its hard to say from that alone. I mean technically Judaism and Christianity are expressions or a core belief in monotheism. But that's a very superficial similarity. So for example:

to engage:
God—In order to become…
• Jews who can express a theology that reflects understanding and appreciation of classical and contemporary Jewish thinkers.​

These classical and contemporary Jewish thinkers may include those that Orthodoxy considers heretics. Which would make an expression of their theology heresy. Maybe not. I'm just giving it as an example, to show that expression of these tenets can be just as important as the core beliefs themselves and doesn't necessarily indicate significant similarity.

 

[metis]

"God"? I've heard that word before.

 

[RabbiO]

Well, its hard to say from that alone. I mean technically Judaism and Christianity are expressions or a core belief in monotheism. But that's a very superficial similarity. So for example:

to engage:
God—In order to become…
• Jews who can express a theology that reflects understanding and appreciation of classical and contemporary Jewish thinkers.​

These classical and contemporary Jewish thinkers may include those that Orthodoxy considers heretics. Which would make an expression of their theology heresy. Maybe not. I'm just giving it as an example, to show that expression of these tenets can be just as important as the core beliefs themselves and doesn't necessarily indicate significant similarity.

If you are going to equate Reform and/or any non-Orthodox movement with Christianity, then we really are not going to have much we can discuss because it becomes all too easy to dismiss - without examination, without thought - any idea, any perception, any insight from a non-Orthodox source or perspective as being illegitimate, irrelevant and unworthy of any consideration.

I will continue to offer you holiday greetings. I will continue to wish you and yours well. I will continue to rejoice in your simchas and sympathize with you in moments of tsouris, but meaningful dialogue where we learn from each other? I just don't see it.

L'shalom.