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Former and latter rains

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by Redemptionsong, Aug 6, 2020.

  1. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    Deuteronomy 11:4 refers to these rains, and there are a number of other biblical references. My understanding is that the rains are a blessing, coming down from God in due season. They appear to be associated with the sowing and harvesting of the wheat, the wine and the oil (expressed literally and symbolically).

    Is the rain reference to the Messiah? Is the rain reference to the Holy Spirit outpoured at the beginning and end of the Messianic era?

    Your thoughts, please.
     
  2. Brian2

    Brian2 Active Member

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    I have been told it refers to the outpouring of the Holy Spirit initially at Pentecost and amongst the first believers and near the end of the age. I have no reason to think it would refer to anything else,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,but am open to hear the view of others.
     
  3. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    That makes good sense to me, too. I, therefore, wonder what it must mean to those who reject two comings of Christ?Maybe the outpouring of the Holy Spirit is concentrated within a much shorter time period, like seven years!
     
  4. Brian2

    Brian2 Active Member

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    Maybe, but how do we find out? It may be a sign of the end of the end times but I imagine there has to also be a time of growth and harvest after the rain.
     
  5. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    Hosea 6:3 is an interesting verse. It refers to the reviving of Ephraim and Judah after the two days of their diaspora. It says, 'and he [the LORD] shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth'.

    If the former rain is not distinguished from the latter rain [the translators adding the word 'and'] then it could be that the former rain has become compressed together with the latter rain.

    James 5:7.'Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receives the early and latter rain'.

    If the early rain helps with the sowing, then the latter rain may help with the reaping. For some [Ephraim and Judah] the sowing and reaping may be compressed together.

    Just a thought!
     
  6. Brian2

    Brian2 Active Member

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    Hosea 6:2 is a verse that it usually associated with the 3 days of Jesus in the grave.
    I hear that Israel is going to see their saviour when He returns and saves them politically and realise who He is and what they have done and turn to Him.
    Certainly the timing of the events associated with Jesus return can be complex and I'm not really up on them, but I hear that the Jews will be witnesses for Jesus at the end. (Of course they are now, but in a different way).
     
  7. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    I think Hosea 6:2 is wrongly associated with the resurrection of Jesus. If you begin reading in Hosea 5, you will get the context of the passage. God is speaking about his anger towards both Ephraim and Judah, and it says in verse 15, 'l will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early'.

    In Hosea 6:1, you'll notice a change in voice. It is no longer the Lord speaking, but Ephraim and Judah. Verse 2 says, 'After two days (two thousand years) will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight'.

    Based on a day as a thousand years, 'in' the 'third day' would be in the third millennium after God had returned to his 'place'.
    Why would God be returning to his place? Surely, this means that He was on earth, and returns to heaven? Is this not what happens at the ascension, after Ephraim and Judah reject the 'King of the Jews'? Is not the offence of Judah their unbelief in Jesus as Messiah?

    As you say, l believe the whole focus of God is going to turn back on Israel. As faith grows cold elsewhere, it may be the turn of lsrael to become the great focus of God's blessings in Christ.

    It's a passage worthy of careful meditation!
     
    #7 Redemptionsong, Aug 8, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2020
  8. Brian2

    Brian2 Active Member

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    Yes I used to think that the resurrection on the third day did not have much OT backing, but recently have heard of prophecies hidden in the story of Noah and Abraham which seem to cover that. Hosea 6:2 always seemed a bit iffy in that regard.
    I guess there is the 1000 years for a day idea to fall back on and which gives a vague time frame which certainly could fit as we approach the end of the 2 day mark.
    I was thinking of the the Zech 12:10 (and surrounding prophecies) and even though I have thought in the past that the Lord would have to return and show Himself to Israel for them to look on Him, this has always been a bit problematic and now I see that it could mean that the Jews en mass may indeed be given grace to see Jesus for Whom He is and turn to Him. This certainly would help me in my understanding of the order of end time events. Interesting things to consider. James 5:7 seems to be saying that the latter rain will come no doubt to Christians and also be offered to the Jews before the Lord returns.
    The former rain I still see as the Pentecost of 2000 years ago however to they would have to receive the latter rain.
    See Romans 11:25-32
     
  9. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    Yes, l'm with you on Pentecost being the former rain. l also disagree with those who claim that there has been a complete absence of rain since Pentecost and the apostles!
     
  10. Wandering Monk

    Wandering Monk Well-Known Member

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    TEACHER OF RIGHTEOUSNESS (Heb. מוֹרֶה צֶדֶק moreh ẓedek), the organizer of the *Qumran community or *Yaḥad . His designation may have been derived from such biblical passages as Hosea 10:12, "it is time to seek the Lord, till He come and cause righteousness to rain [yoreh ẓedek] upon you," or Joel 2:23, "rejoice in the Lord, your God; for He giveth you the former rain in just measure" – et ha-moreh li-ẓedakah, which has sometimes been translated "teacher of righteousness"

    https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/teacher-of-righteousness
     
  11. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    Interesting. The article also suggests that the 'teacher of righteousness' may have been a reference to Elijah.

    To me, Jesus is the righteousness of God, and it is His righteousness that falls as rain, or as the Holy Spirit.

    It's hard not to read these articles without being affected by the bright light of the New Testament!
     
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