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Featured Forgiveness, Trust, Community

Discussion in 'Interfaith Discussion' started by idea, May 18, 2018.

  1. idea

    idea Well-Known Member

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    No one is perfect, everyone at some point will hurt those around them.
    Nothing is secure, nothing is safe, no one deserves our trust or faith...

    so... which path have you chosen? Do you think:

    a) it is best to remain isolated and unattached, do not join a church, do not get married, keep all interactions professional and courteous but do not get overly involved with anyone or any specific group.

    b) Get married even though they might cheat on you. Join a church even though you don't agree with everything, and you feel a little used (they will take your time, take your money, take take take). Love, trust, and have faith in others even though they are not perfect and will break your trust, not return your love etc.

    What is more important?
    • Being part of an imperfect community (family, religious, or other).
    • Protecting yourself from being used.

    What are your limits?
    Hillary did not leave Bill Clinton after he cheated on her... should she have?
    Many Catholics, Baptists, Mormons, Muslims, etc. etc. have not left their faith even though their church has done horrible things - should they? Should everyone leave their church because it is not perfect? Leave their marriage, their family because it is not perfect?

    What is the biggest thing you have forgiven someone for? Why did you forgive? What personal securities are you willing to sacrifice in order to stay connected with others?

    Is it possible to have love without trust, community without agreement - are those who lack faith and trust missing out on deeper connections with those around them?

    The only way not to be isolated and lone - is to have love, faith and trust in fallen corrupt abusive establishments and people (and all people and establishments are fallen, imperfect, and even abusive at times)?

    What do you think? not just what do you think, what experiences have you had - what do you trust, what have you had to forgive?

    5 reasons Americans are lonely
    A recent study found that people feel disconnected from everyday life...
    Nearly half of Americans report feeling alone (46%) or left out (47%).
     
    #1 idea, May 18, 2018
    Last edited: May 18, 2018
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  2. Altfish

    Altfish Well-Known Member

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    There are many more options than the two you mention.
    • I am not involved with a church.
    • I am married, I have a family with grandchildren.
    • I have many friends, none of them go to church, we have 8 coming round tomorrow for a meal. We are out tonight with other friends for a drink.
    • A couple of our friends are on second marriages - they are still in touch with their ex spouses.
    So the only way not be isolated and lone certainly does not require faith. Church, religion is definitely not needed for happiness.
     
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  3. idea

    idea Well-Known Member

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    Community through family
    Community through work (volunteer and professional)
    Community through location - getting to know neighbors etc.

    Family is one of the biggest/highest things most have faith/loyalty/trust in. Do we trust and have faith in our family because of DNA/natural instinct? the amount of time that is spent together - we feel comfortable/attached with what we are familiar with?

    So you believe family is the best way to go - and would encourage everyone to get married and have kids over staying single and concentrating on a career? That family is #1 tool for being connected and building community? What do you think is worth giving up for your family? What have you / would you give up for them? What would you be willing to forgive them for? Why them over others? I think most would forgive their kids for just about anything, but we would not forgive others - would not forgive a church for example... why forgive some over others?

    Divorce is a heartache, but then forgiveness can be too.

    they are still in touch with their ex spouses...
    Why did you divorce your religious group? are you still in contact with your religious group?
     
    #3 idea, May 18, 2018
    Last edited: May 18, 2018
  4. bobhikes

    bobhikes Nowoligist
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    Its always best to engage. Isolation is impossible and leaves you open to the unexpected.
     
  5. idea

    idea Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure that Isolation is impossible... there are various degrees of isolation - you can be in the same room with a bunch of other people, and still be isolated...
     
    #5 idea, May 18, 2018
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  6. Altfish

    Altfish Well-Known Member

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    Why do you keep using the word 'Faith' ? Loyalty and trust fine but faith is belief without evidence.
    We bond with family and friends because of Darwinian traits, the most successful (i.e. they pass on their genes) are usually people with family.
    Blood is thicker than water - i.e. you have deeper bonds with family.
     
  7. bobhikes

    bobhikes Nowoligist
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    I stand by what I said, you are free to disagree.
     
  8. Sunstone

    Sunstone De Diablo Del Fora
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    It is far and away best to love and love passionately; to pick yourself up after each defeat, and love passionately again and again -- because love (at least a certain kind of love) is one of the few things that allows us to wholly affirm life, to embrace life on its own terms, rather than be quietly miserable with an outward smile and an inward sigh of despair.

    Most people are like that -- always looking for pleasures to compensate themselves for not loving their lives, never finding enough pleasure to feel truly compensated.

    It takes guts to love passionately -- you are certain to get hurt now and then -- so most of us play it safe fearing a little pain, and love like teetotalers cautiously sniffing a glass of wine, scared it might bite them.

    At least that's been my experience from having tried living both ways at different times.
     
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  9. idea

    idea Well-Known Member

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    Do you have faith that your grandchildren will grow up to have productive and meaningful lives? Do you have faith in them?
    Do you have faith in your bank?
    faith is not just a religious word.

    Is blood thicker than water? Do you love your spouse or your children more? Do you trust and have faith in your spouse or your children more? ... You are not related to your spouse are you? .. that might mean your #1 trust and faith person was not created with blood... perhaps the highest relationships are not just DNA...
     
  10. idea

    idea Well-Known Member

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    We can at least agree that some are more connected than others? or at least some feel more connected than others? Why is this?
     
  11. idea

    idea Well-Known Member

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    Love everyone, or just a select few?

    Would you have respect for someone who loves their enemy, who loves and stays with someone who hates and spitefully uses and persecutes?

    most of us just don't have those guts... does love require forgiveness after being slapped around a bit? Does love require having enough "guts" to be hurt?
     
    #11 idea, May 18, 2018
    Last edited: May 18, 2018
  12. Altfish

    Altfish Well-Known Member

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    I don't have faith, I have hope.
    'Blood is thicker than water' is just a saying. Marriage brings you into the 'blood' side in my interpretation.
     
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  13. bobhikes

    bobhikes Nowoligist
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    I don't know why people feel differently then me but as to why people don't engage I can say. It is easier to try and isolate, engaging requires work and opens the possibility to fail. Laziness and fear are why people try to isolate.
     
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  14. idea

    idea Well-Known Member

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    fear of getting hurt... isolation hurts, as do relationships with imperfect people...
     
  15. idea

    idea Well-Known Member

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    you are not involved in any church - were you ever?

    do you think joining / leaving a church is similar to marriage / divorce? (the church is the bridegroom of Christ etc. Heavenly Father / sons - brothers - quite a few marriage and family comparisons in religious groups)
     
  16. Altfish

    Altfish Well-Known Member

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    Not since I was 12 and started doing science at school. Leaving the CofE is easy, I was hardly committed to it as I had not reached the age of consent.
    The church is an authoritarian and money making entity, it does not affect me at all, I just ignore it.
     
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  17. Quintessence

    Quintessence Tale Weaver
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    We're part of multiple communities whether we consciously acknowledge it or not. For example, whether or not you actively engage with your neighbors down the street, your neighborhood is a community. Whether or not you actively engage with the politics and decision making of your city or town, you are part of that community too. You're also part of a state or national community, whether or not you mindfully engage it. And beyond the scope of humanity, all humans are part of biological and ecological communities. There is no opting out from this.

    The question to ask is "what are my responsibilities to these communities?" and "what relationship do I want to have with these communities?" Setting norms for relationships is one of the major roles of religions worldwide. Much of religious mythology contains lessons about relationships, offering models for proper relationships as well as tales of warning.


     
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  18. Sunstone

    Sunstone De Diablo Del Fora
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    If I could, I'd love everyone. But the kind of love I'm thinking of is not even close to the popular notion of love as something that will put up with a little (or even a lot of) abuse. That "popular love" is indistinguishable from emotional dependency so naturally it puts up with abuse -- if you're emotionally dependent on someone or something you will indeed allow it to abuse you. That's not the kind of love I myself have in mind though.

    Of course I would respect them. I would likely note they were foolish, but why wouldn't I respect them -- are they not still human?

    If we are wise, we do not forgive for the sake of others so much as for our own sake. We forgive so that we do not carry around with us -- and are not emotionally or psychologically crippled by -- anger, resentment, hatred, or fear. Having said that, if someone slapped me around a bit, I'd leave them. If that was impractical, I'd dominate them.

    The love I'm talking of here goes hand in hand with being vulnerable, unprotected from being hurt, just as if you were an innocent child. That might take guts, but it's best if you have so put any past hurts behind you that they no longer cause you to fear loving again.
     
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  19. idea

    idea Well-Known Member

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    Which religion teaches the healthiest form of community? Or what organization has everyone seen that has the healthiest teachings of community?
     
  20. Sunstone

    Sunstone De Diablo Del Fora
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    That's a pretty tough question. If I went with my preferences, I'd say Taoism. But if I went with my admittedly scant knowledge on the issue, I'd say Buddhism.

    I used to know a few teens who were being raised by one or both parents Buddhists, and they usually impressed me as remarkably healthy and functional teens.
     
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