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"Forced Genital Cutting," and Jewish circumcision

Skwim

Veteran Member
"Yesterday, during a meeting in Oslo, Nordic ombudsmen for children, Nordic paediatricians, and paediatric surgeons agreed a resolution urging their national governments to work for a ban on non-therapeutic circumcision of underage boys.

Dr Antony Lempert, a GP and spokesperson for the UK Secular Medical Forum (SMF) applauded this historic resolution and urged the UK and devolved Governments to work towards protecting all UK children at risk of forced genital cutting.

Dr Lempert argued that, "with an increasing awareness of serious irreversible harm caused to boys and girls from forced genital cutting it is time for the genitals of all children to be protected from people with knives and strong religious or cultural beliefs. There can be no justification for healthy children to be forcibly cut. All children deserve society's protection from serious harm."
source
And
"The world should learn from the Nordic countries how to ban non-therapeutic, nonsense circumcision of underage boys. Children’s rights must be protected. We adults do not have the right to impose our superstitions, religious belief and madness on our children and abuse, or mutilate them. It is a nasty crime against children

The human right to bodily integrity is more important than the human right to freedom of religion. Religious tradition is a poor excuse to subject a baby to circumcision. People started practicing circumcision long before the birth of monotheistic religions. The risks of circumcision are many, infection, necrosis, gangrene, BXO, urinary tract infection, urinary retention, meatal ulceration or stenosis, urethral fistula, hypospadias or epispadias, lymphedema etc. Circumcision also affects sexual function and desensitizes the penis. Seriously, how many diseases do we need to ban circumcision?
source
image3.jpg


As a kid I, and almost every guy I knew, was circumcised early on, so anyone who was not was looked upon as rather odd---this was apparent in the changing area at the local pool. Asking my mother about the difference I can remember being told that circumcision was done to facilitate cleanliness---not in those words of course. It's something I never came to regret, but can now see why it's not only unnecessary, but possibly harmful.

Back to my childhood; I learned that two of my cousins who were Jewish---I was not---were also circumcised, but for religious reasons. Told that because of their religion they were required to be circumcised brought a whole other dimension to the practice. I remember thinking that it was quite curious that a religion required some of the skin on the penis be sniped off. How utterly strange---what significance could penis skin have to a religion? In any case, at least my cousins could more easily keep their tools clean. :shrug:

Then I found out that this Jewish practice wasn't a religious requirement at all, but simply a social custom that could be ignored. Looking it up for this thread, I came across the following.
"Like the American cultural practice of circumcision, Jewish circumcision (bris or brit milah) is dependent on the acceptance of cultural myths. Of all the myths that Jews believe about circumcision, the one that is paramount is the belief that all Jews circumcise. With this belief, we put ourselves under tremendous pressure to conform.

Bound by this burden to comply with social expectations, most Jewish parents do not recognize that circumcision is a choice. Since open communication about circumcision is discouraged, there is virtually no awareness of others who feel similar conflicts and doubts around circumcision. Moreover, if a Jewish parent does decide not to circumcise a male child, it is not generally known to the rest of the community. As a result, many parents submit to the pressure and then discover only too late, perhaps after witnessing the circumcision of their son, that they wish they had chosen differently. Some parents report that if they could take back one decision, it would be their son's circumcision.
source
How about you, what are your thoughts?
 
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Falvlun

Earthbending Lemur
Premium Member
While I think it would likely be best if circumcision went the way of the dinosaur, I don't really find it to be the heinous, abusive practice described above.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
While I think it would likely be best if circumcision went the way of the dinosaur, I don't really find it to be the heinous, abusive practice described above.
So you don't believe that the risk of infection, necrosis, gangrene, BXO, urinary tract infection, urinary retention, meatal ulceration or stenosis, urethral fistula, hypospadias or epispadias, and lymphedemais is increased with circumcision? Okay, :shrug: But consider the following two observations.
"Circumcised men have more difficulties reaching orgasm, and their female partners experience more vaginal pains and an inferior sex life, a new study shows."
source

"The American Academy of Pediatrics has reported that while the exact incident of post-operative complications following a circumcision is unknown, it is thought to be between 2-10 per cent. One of the reasons for this is that many problems following circumcision do not become apparent until the child grows into adulthood."
source
And, I do agree with you that circumcision should go the way of the dinosaur.
 

Aquitaine

Well-Known Member
Unless there is a genuine medical necessity for circumcision, it should indeed go the way of the dinosaur.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
Yeesh not this nonsense again. :eek:
I take it you feel the Oslo resolution to ban non-therapeutic circumcision isn't newsworthy. Okay :shrug: Although, you might want to take the approach I do; when not interested in an issue simply ignore it. There is no obligation to read or respond to anything of RF, and there will never be a test.
 

CMike

Well-Known Member
I take it you feel the Oslo resolution to ban non-therapeutic circumcision isn't newsworthy. Okay :shrug: Although, you might want to take the approach I do; when not interested in an issue simply ignore it. There is no obligation to read or respond to anything of RF, and there will never be a test.
I was responding to it.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
I was responding to it.
I know. I was just letting you know that you don't have to waste your energy doing so. I certainly don't. But hey, I guess if it makes you feel better getting it off your chest, then go for it.

Your "Yeesh" is duly noted.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Then I found out that this Jewish practice wasn't a religious requirement at all, but simply a social custom that could be ignored. ... How about you, what are your thoughts?
Trolling for a fight with the aid of pathetic selection bias. I think you're predictable. :yes:
 

dawny0826

Mother Heathen
The CDC and AAP recommend that parents make educated decisions. Both cite benefits, and approach risks involved.

However, the risks involved are relatively low.

Circumcision foes should cut it out, experts say - HealthPop - CBS News

Per the CDC:

Summary

  • Male circumcision reduces the risk that a man will acquire HIV from an infected female partner, and also lowers the risk of other STDs , penile cancer, and infant urinary tract infection.
  • For female partners, male circumcision reduces the risk of cervical cancer, genital ulceration, bacterial vaginosis, trichomoniasis, and HPV. Although male circumcision has risks including pain, bleeding, and infection, more serious complications are rare.
CDC - Male Circumcision - Research - Prevention Research - HIV/AIDS

The AAP:

Circumcision Policy Statement

Again, both the AAP and CDC encourage parents and individuals to make educated decisions, not to bash the hell out of others for theirs.
 
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xkatz

Well-Known Member
Then I found out that this Jewish practice wasn't a religious requirement at all, but simply a social custom that could be ignored.
Citing one left-wing reform rabbi's book ≠ binding truth or reality for Jewish people in general. That is a pretty poor assertion to make.
 

dyanaprajna2011

Dharmapala
I have two boys, neither of whom are circumcised. While I agree that it's unnecessary, and probably should just be done away with, I've always made concessions for those who do so for religious purposes. Now, I'd never be part of a religion where this is a necessary act, but, while I do agree that it is unnecessary, I don't think it should be stopped entirely when some religions do practice it.
 

dawny0826

Mother Heathen
I support male circumcision within the auspices of religious custom. It's hardly the barbaric act that the opposition claims.

I love the way we pick and choose what freedoms certain Americans should have. God forbid anyone protest against what consenting adults might want to do in the bedroom, but, when it comes to what loving parents feel driven to do when it comes to their children, in love - absolutely not.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
Skwim said:
Then I found out that this Jewish practice wasn't a religious requirement at all, but simply a social custom that could be ignored. ... How about you, what are your thoughts?

Trolling for a fight with the aid of pathetic selection bias. I think you're predictable. :yes:
Just what kind of a fight do you think I'm trolling for? And exactly what "pathetic selection bias" are you referring to; that I happen to bring Jews, who are well known for their rite of circumcision, into the discussion? FYI, I simply found it interesting that it's just a social expectation and not demanded by Judaism. However . . . I am getting the impression you don't think anyone should bring up anything having to do with Jews except Jews. :yes:
 
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McBell

Resident Sourpuss
"Yesterday, during a meeting in Oslo, Nordic ombudsmen for children, Nordic paediatricians, and paediatric surgeons agreed a resolution urging their national governments to work for a ban on non-therapeutic circumcision of underage boys.

Dr Antony Lempert, a GP and spokesperson for the UK Secular Medical Forum (SMF) applauded this historic resolution and urged the UK and devolved Governments to work towards protecting all UK children at risk of forced genital cutting.

Dr Lempert argued that, "with an increasing awareness of serious irreversible harm caused to boys and girls from forced genital cutting it is time for the genitals of all children to be protected from people with knives and strong religious or cultural beliefs. There can be no justification for healthy children to be forcibly cut. All children deserve society's protection from serious harm."
source
And
"The world should learn from the Nordic countries how to ban non-therapeutic, nonsense circumcision of underage boys. Children’s rights must be protected. We adults do not have the right to impose our superstitions, religious belief and madness on our children and abuse, or mutilate them. It is a nasty crime against children

The human right to bodily integrity is more important than the human right to freedom of religion. Religious tradition is a poor excuse to subject a baby to circumcision. People started practicing circumcision long before the birth of monotheistic religions. The risks of circumcision are many, infection, necrosis, gangrene, BXO, urinary tract infection, urinary retention, meatal ulceration or stenosis, urethral fistula, hypospadias or epispadias, lymphedema etc. Circumcision also affects sexual function and desensitizes the penis. Seriously, how many diseases do we need to ban circumcision?
source
image3.jpg


As a kid I, and almost every guy I knew, was circumcised early on, so anyone who was not was looked upon as rather odd---this was apparent in the changing area at the local pool. Asking my mother about the difference I can remember being told that circumcision was done to facilitate cleanliness---not in those words of course. It's something I never came to regret, but can now see why it's not only unnecessary, but possibly harmful.

Back to my childhood; I learned that two of my cousins who were Jewish---I was not---were also circumcised, but for religious reasons. Told that because of their religion they were required to be circumcised brought a whole other dimension to the practice. I remember thinking that it was quite curious that a religion required some of the skin on the penis be sniped off. How utterly strange---what significance could penis skin have to a religion? In any case, at least my cousins could more easily keep their tools clean. :shrug:

Then I found out that this Jewish practice wasn't a religious requirement at all, but simply a social custom that could be ignored. Looking it up for this thread, I came across the following.
"Like the American cultural practice of circumcision, Jewish circumcision (bris or brit milah) is dependent on the acceptance of cultural myths. Of all the myths that Jews believe about circumcision, the one that is paramount is the belief that all Jews circumcise. With this belief, we put ourselves under tremendous pressure to conform.

Bound by this burden to comply with social expectations, most Jewish parents do not recognize that circumcision is a choice. Since open communication about circumcision is discouraged, there is virtually no awareness of others who feel similar conflicts and doubts around circumcision. Moreover, if a Jewish parent does decide not to circumcise a male child, it is not generally known to the rest of the community. As a result, many parents submit to the pressure and then discover only too late, perhaps after witnessing the circumcision of their son, that they wish they had chosen differently. Some parents report that if they could take back one decision, it would be their son's circumcision.
source
How about you, what are your thoughts?

I do not understand why it is fine for them to push their beliefs on the world by bashing others who push beliefs...

Seems a bit hypocritical to me.

Especially with post 10 glaring the OP in the face.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
Citing one left-wing reform rabbi's book ≠ binding truth or reality for Jewish people in general. That is a pretty poor assertion to make.
So, are you saying that what the article says, "most Jewish parents do not recognize that circumcision is a choice" is wrong? That "Like the American cultural practice of circumcision, Jewish circumcision (bris or brit milah) is dependent on the acceptance of cultural myths" is incorrect? I'm certainly in no position to argue one way or the other, but if you have evidence that the article is wrong, please share.

Apex said:
Being a circumcised male, I have such a hard time believing this
When I saw the picture I thought to myself; if I feel any more pleasure from my penis my head will explode. :yes:
 
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Aquitaine

Well-Known Member
I support male circumcision within the auspices of religious custom. It's hardly the barbaric act that the opposition claims.

I love the way we pick and choose what freedoms certain Americans should have. God forbid anyone protest against what consenting adults might want to do in the bedroom, but, when it comes to what loving parents feel driven to do when it comes to their children, in love - absolutely not.

I'm gathering then, that you feel circumcision should be protected as a religious freedom?
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
I do not understand why it is fine for them to push their beliefs on the world by bashing others who push beliefs...

Seems a bit hypocritical to me.
Not exactly sure what pushing of beliefs your referring to, but I see nothing hypocritical .

Especially with post 10 glaring the OP in the face.
Well, post 10 might be more relevant if the HIV Acquisition rates were based on more than studies done among Africans, and 19 weren't conducted in "populations at high risk for HIV." A more representative sample would be more compelling.

As for the Circumcision Policy Statement cited, it's 14 years old. Not saying it can't be correct, but it is a bit dated, and therefore somewhat suspect.

All in all I didn't find the post a compelling reason to change my mind.
 

dawny0826

Mother Heathen
I'm gathering then, that you feel circumcision should be protected as a religious freedom?

I do think that male circumcisision should be protected as a religious freedom. But, more important, I think it should be protected as an individual freedom/choice.

Parents should have the right to make an informed choice for their child, as science does not support that which the penis in the OP claims.
 
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