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For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?

Kelly of the Phoenix

Well-Known Member
So if I had to give a one-sentence answer, I'd say that in that passage, Jesus is telling Peter that without Jesus's crucifixion, anything else humanity does will be futile.
And the downer is that if I still have to repent for my sins, it's like getting an invoice for a product or service that was supposedly already paid.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
This is one of those themes where the Teachings of Jesus and the Buddha clearly overlap.

And similar figures.

This is one of the greatest teachings in the Sermon on the Mount and maybe the gospels in general...its not about what's going on outside but what is going on inside.

We all have choices in life. And choices have consequences.

One fun book about this is C. S. Lewis' "Great Divorce". It of course has a Christian frame-of-reference, but there is much I agree such as this:

“No soul that seriously and constantly desires joy will ever miss it. Those who seek find. To those who knock it is opened.”
 

Samantha Rinne

Resident Genderfluid Writer/Artist
It is recorded in the Gospel of Mark 8:36

For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?


Presuming Jesus really spoke these words what do you think Jesus meant and why?

Here's two very different examples:

1. Suppose you are a webcomic author (I'm using this one, because I actually KNOW a webcomic author who did this), and you're struggling to be extra-woke and liberal so that you can appeal to all your fans. You know, because image and reputation is all important. So you fill your comic with blacks, whites, basically the entire LGBT spectrum as quotas (you have a trans person, a gay wedding, some lesbians and bisexuals), you have rednecks and all sorts of people in your webcomic town. You even have a girl who is convinced she is an elf or something, and another who lives in a space station. But you have unpleasable fans, who constantly demand this or that, and you are always trying to meet their needs. This can happen in any public service job, even working at a library, but we want to use this example. So at one point, you have a bikini shot of a girl who while cute is a bit bigger than normal. You draw the comic, showing some of her angst about her body, and you think you did okay. The fans however tell you "She isn't fat enough," and that you should just go die. So you stab a fork through the hand you use to draw with. You have allowed public image to override your artistic vision. You've lost your soul.
2. For a more conservative example, suppose you are an average family guy working about 30 hours, plus you fill in as needed for extra, but it's typically an understood that you want to get home and look after your loved ones in addition to supporting them financially. Basically, you had a dad who worked so much that you never saw him, and you don't want to be like that. Then the boss decides they like your work, but they want more of it. So they want you working 40 hours on a regular basis, and more importantly they want you working at hours that are incompatible with seeing your wife and child. Basically, you're working 40 hours on graveyard shift and unable to see your family that you love. You don't want to be fired, so you go along to get along. You've also lost your soul to please the world.

Jesus calls us, not to be people-pleasers but to "let our freak flag fly" as many of the LGBT groups say. Only, many of them have gotten into the habit of trying to outdo each other or conform to a certain type, so that's out too. It's what is meant by "taking up your cross and following", all of us have burdens we can't let the world see. But these things tend to become sins based on how we deal with them.
 

halbhh

The wonder and awe of "all things".
It is recorded in the Gospel of Mark 8:36

For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?


Presuming Jesus really spoke these words what do you think Jesus meant and why?
It's such a wonderful quote, adage, wisdom.

What use or good would it be to become rich and totally lose your best self?

What good would success be if it came by betraying your most treasured inner values?

Far better to have only a modest life (if that's the outcome) but to keep your best self, your best being.

Christ says another related thing to His followers, that can be seen as a next (and only good) step from this wisdom --

"But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you."
(meaning sufficient basic necessities of life we all need, so that we can focus on the best things, things that are sublime)
 

sealchan

Well-Known Member
And similar figures.



We all have choices in life. And choices have consequences.

One fun book about this is C. S. Lewis' "Great Divorce". It of course has a Christian frame-of-reference, but there is much I agree such as this:

“No soul that seriously and constantly desires joy will ever miss it. Those who seek find. To those who knock it is opened.”

From a psychological point of view, I think that our culture is still learning how to understand and take responsibility for what is going on in our minds. Many still consider the mind as a simple expression of who we are rather than something much more complex and requiring our effort to understand and explore. I think that such teachers as Krishna, Buddha and Yeshua were basically about taking us the next step toward this understanding. Carl Jung, IMO, created a therapeutic approach in psychology that allows an individual to try and navigate their own path through their self-knowledge.
 
It is recorded in the Gospel of Mark 8:36

For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?
Our soul by definition, is our very own self, our identity, our mind and our own physical body.


Satan is said to have left his physical heavenly soul(body/dwelling place) in heaven and His spirit was cast out and now resides in all mankind through the subjection of the men under his spiritual control,

Adam was supposed to be the lord of all the creatures but upon his fall and subjection to the serpent's wisdom, Satan became the prince of this world. Hence Jesus speaks to Satan as He dwells in Spirit in the Souls of Men, He conceals his own Soul disguising in the process, like it did when Eve was tempted by his serpent.

But it has deeper meaning in it, as it was laid in parable.

Upon (the second) resurrection, all of the dead will have their earthly corruptible bodies initially restored for the purpose of the great white throne judgment. We lose our soul(body) if we've got the same fate as that of Satan, and his fallen angels,

Before, Satan and his angels left with their heavenly soul/bodies in heaven in exchange for gaining authority upon the whole world, that is when they defile their glorious bodies and started mingling with daughters of men, and their offspring men of renowned.

The hour will come when Satan et. al. will rise from the abyss and will resurrect once again out of their defiled glorific body but only to lose it again, this time reserved for eternal damnation in the lake of fire, their second death.
 
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TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I think the context of the passage makes this clear. Jesus has just explained to the Apostles how he's going to be arrested, tried, whipped, crucified, and killed. Peter's immediate reaction is to start coming up with a plan to stop this from happening.

Jesus rebukes Peter for this - actually calling him "Satan" for what he's saying.

The verse you quoted is part of that rebuke. Jesus explains that the salvation of humanity depends on his death as described. In the quoted verse, Jesus is making the point that if he doesn't die, no matter what else a man does, his soul will be lost.

So if I had to give a one-sentence answer, I'd say that in that passage, Jesus is telling Peter that without Jesus's crucifixion, anything else humanity does will be futile.

Would another thought be that we are to submit to God's will and not our own?

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
And if Jesus was not raised from the dead they also have no hope.

In Luke 16 Jesus speaks a parable, who many claim was not a parable, where Abraham is in heaven or paradise already.

If that be true, it makes nonsense of the idea of having no hope unless Jesus be killed and raised from the dead

The teaching of being born again in the Faith of Christ, may very well be the key here. The treasures of the Spirit are the 2nd birth to which death cannot overtake.

Regards Tony
 
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Jedster

Well-Known Member
It is recorded in the Gospel of Mark 8:36

For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?


Presuming Jesus really spoke these words what do you think Jesus meant and why?

One possibility is that he did travel to India, as some believe, and became 'enlightened', then
on his return to Israel, he decided parables and metaphors a better way to approach these people living in a totally different state of awareness to Dharmics.
 

osgart

Nothing my eye, Something for sure
Jesus is saying Do not forsake love for it destroys the soul to do so. And there is no worth in gaining the whole world at the cost of one's own soul. Anything contrary to love is against life.

Then the question becomes what is love?

To me love is the willful desire to care for others, and not some willy nilly, goofy emotion.

I believe that would be the epitome of heaven. Where people willfully care for one another and there are no riders or abusers.

Christianity goes further though. It says to love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you. For all humans deserved death and the loss of eternal life. It makes those claims as fact.

The NT is extreme in its views on human nature. While offering salvation for all.

The book of Romans talks about how all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. And the wages of sin is death.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
One possibility is that he did travel to India, as some believe, and became 'enlightened', then
on his return to Israel, he decided parables and metaphors a better way to approach these people living in a totally different state of awareness to Dharmics.
I’ve considered this theory before and am not aware of any evidence to support it. However I like the intent of finding a meaningful narrative that embraces both the Abrahamic and Dharmic Faiths and weaving them together.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
It is recorded in the Gospel of Mark 8:36

For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?


Presuming Jesus really spoke these words what do you think Jesus meant and why?
The Greek word translated 'soul' is ψυχή / psukhē / psyche.

It has a wide range of meanings: breath; spirit; life; living being; person; soul; heart; desire; appetite; courage; ghost.

(Etymologically in English it's also associated with 'mind' in words like 'psychiatry' ─ though in old Greek the word for 'mind' was νοῦϛ / nous.)

My RSV translates it as 'lose his life' (in both 8:36 and 8:37). So do the ASV, NET and YLT.

The KJV has 'soul', of course; as do the Douay, ESV, NASB, NIV, NKJV (and the Vulgate has 'anima', the usual church Latin for 'soul').

(Those are just the versions I could conveniently check. There are numerous others.)

So the key word here is ambiguous, and you can translate it either as 'soul' or 'life' and cite reputable scholarship to support your choice. The case for 'life' seems to be slightly strengthened in the text below.

Or you could go it alone and choose one of the other meanings.


Mark's Jesus says "[34] If any man would come after me,. let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. [35] For whoever would save his life [ψυχή] will lose it; and whoever loses his life [ψυχή] for my sake and the gospel's will save it. [36] For what does it profit a man to gain the whole world and forfeit his life/soul [ψυχή]? For what can a man give in return for his life/soul [ψυχή]?"

That seems to me to be saying that martyrs will be assured of heaven; and the implication appears to be, spread the word fearlessly; you can only gain if you do.

Personally I'm not a fan of evangelizing, but there it is.
 
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Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
I’ve considered this theory before and am not aware of any evidence to support it. However I like the intent of finding a meaningful narrative that embraces both the Abrahamic and Dharmic Faiths and weaving them together.

If they don't mix, they don't mix. Orange juice and milk don't mix. It's far easier to just accept they don't mix than try to force it when it's just not there. If two families do an arranged marriage, and force a couple who just don't mix, it won't work out. Better to just remain friends. Same for these two world views, in my view. Mixing insults both.

The quote in question is in direct contradiction to dharmic faiths as we see the soul as 'having a man', not a man having a soul. We are souls, not men. Men are temporal, souls are eternal. Besides, by attaining moksha, the ultimate goal in dharmic faiths, we do gain the whole world, just not in the way materialists view it. I mentioned the elevator on the road to illustrate to what degree some folks will go to proselytise. I cringed every time I drove past there. Some uplifting mural would have been far better use of paint.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
So the key word here is ambiguous, and you can translate it either as 'soul' or 'life' and cite reputable scholarship to support your choice.

Exactly. The words in Hebrew and Greek mean the same.....it is the living, breathing organism....pertaining to both humans and animals. It never refers to a disembodied spirit.

So Jesus is reminding us to value life because unless we live it according to God’s rules, we could lose it forever. Chasing after material things or fleshly desires by breaking God’s laws will mean this is the only the only life we will ever have....and it’s not the best one....that is still to come, according to scripture.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Since God is presumably the one who would cause everyone to be "lost" if Jesus isn't crucified, sure - that works. Doesn't look good on God, though.

I would think that we can not see what God knows about our potential, which is found in submission to a greater wisdom.

Regards Tony
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Exactly. The words in Hebrew and Greek mean the same.....it is the living, breathing organism....pertaining to both humans and animals. It never refers to a disembodied spirit.

So Jesus is reminding us to value life because unless we live it according to God’s rules, we could lose it forever. Chasing after material things or fleshly desires by breaking God’s laws will mean this is the only the only life we will ever have....and it’s not the best one....that is still to come, according to scripture.
Check the revision (elaboration) I made to my post #32 after I'd first posted it.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
If they don't mix, they don't mix. Orange juice and milk don't mix. It's far easier to just accept they don't mix than try to force it when it's just not there. If two families do an arranged marriage, and force a couple who just don't mix, it won't work out. Better to just remain friends. Same for these two world views, in my view. Mixing insults both.

The quote in question is in direct contradiction to dharmic faiths as we see the soul as 'having a man', not a man having a soul. We are souls, not men. Men are temporal, souls are eternal. Besides, by attaining moksha, the ultimate goal in dharmic faiths, we do gain the whole world, just not in the way materialists view it. I mentioned the elevator on the road to illustrate to what degree some folks will go to proselytise. I cringed every time I drove past there. Some uplifting mural would have been far better use of paint.

We’ve discussed this before at length. Leaving my religion ( the Baha’i Faith) out of the picture entirely we have us humans as a starting point. I hope we would agree that we’re all people regardless of our background with varying ethnicity, cultures, nationality etc. From an anthropological perspective we’ve all originated from primitive societies based on subsistence farming, agriculture or hunting. We’ve all evolved to a much more sophisticated and complex culture. There are exceptions of course with those who have resisted modernity. However there isn’t a culture without some form of spiritual practices and beliefs. There may be exceptions.

Primitive cultures emerged in relative isolation from their sister cultures. However in many parts of the world that has become impossible. In both our countries we have indigenous peoples whose spiritual practices have similarities. There’s also been the process of colonisation and the profound impact on both those who have colonised and indigenous peoples. We could say these cultures are like milk and oranges but they have been forced to mix. Same deal with the peoples of the Indian subcontinent with successive incursions from Muslim cultures and then the British Empire more recently.

So beyond indigenous and pagan religions we have a relatively small number of religions that are embraced by the majority of the world’s inhabitants. It comes down to Christianity, Islam, Hinduism and Buddhism. There are others of course but each of these world religions have formed a similar roles in their communities and stood the test of time. The challenge for many of us is to make sense of humanities diverse religious experiences. While some may not consider this important others clearly do.

So what are the best models for understanding world history and mankind’s religious experience? There are probably about 10 to 20 narratives that would offer an explanation. Some narratives are ethnocentric or centred on one right religion seeing peoples outsiders as wrong. Other narratives will see varying degrees of truth and validity in all the main faiths and will be more even handed.

Where each of us fits in that spectrum of belief and worldview, perhaps its where we differ the most. Interestingly the quote from the Bible I see as Universal whereas I doubt you have that view. Its all good though as agreeing is overrated. Listening and understanding different POVs is far more important. So I appreciate your post though don’t necessarily completely agree.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
We’ve discussed this before at length. Leaving my religion ( the Baha’i Faith) out of the picture entirely we have us humans as a starting point. I hope we would agree that we’re all people regardless of our background with varying ethnicity, cultures, nationality etc. From an anthropological perspective we’ve all originated from primitive societies based on subsistence farming, agriculture or hunting. We’ve all evolved to a much more sophisticated and complex culture. There are exceptions of course with those who have resisted modernity. However there isn’t a culture without some form of spiritual practices and beliefs. There may be exceptions.

Primitive cultures emerged in relative isolation from their sister cultures. However in many parts of the world that has become impossible. In both our countries we have indigenous peoples whose spiritual practices have similarities. There’s also been the process of colonisation and the profound impact on both those who have colonised and indigenous peoples. We could say these cultures are like milk and oranges but they have been forced to mix. Same deal with the peoples of the Indian subcontinent with successive incursions from Muslim cultures and then the British Empire more recently.

So beyond indigenous and pagan religions we have a relatively small number of religions that are embraced by the majority of the world’s inhabitants. It comes down to Christianity, Islam, Hinduism and Buddhism. There are others of course but each of these world religions have formed a similar roles in their communities and stood the test of time. The challenge for many of us is to make sense of humanities diverse religious experiences. While some may not consider this important others clearly do.

So what are the best models for understanding world history and mankind’s religious experience? There are probably about 10 to 20 narratives that would offer an explanation. Some narratives are ethnocentric or centred on one right religion seeing peoples outsiders as wrong. Other narratives will see varying degrees of truth and validity in all the main faiths and will be more even handed.

Where each of us fits in that spectrum of belief and worldview, perhaps its where we differ the most. Interestingly the quote from the Bible I see as Universal whereas I doubt you have that view. Its all good though as agreeing is overrated. Listening and understanding different POVs is far more important. So I appreciate your post though don’t necessarily completely agree.

To me the important things are that we get along ... and in that getting along we don't lose wisdom. Those indigenous peoples you mention had wisdom, and because of successive incursions, as you mentioned, we lost most if not all of that wisdom. The intent of various forms of universalism may be fine, but if we lose wisdom because of it, then it is mankind's loss. I'd like the future people have access to the wisdom of dharmic sages alongside the sometimes necessity of fear based religions.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
To me the important things are that we get along ... and in that getting along we don't lose wisdom. Those indigenous peoples you mention had wisdom, and because of successive incursions, as you mentioned, we lost most if not all of that wisdom. The intent of various forms of universalism may be fine, but if we lose wisdom because of it, then it is mankind's loss. I'd like the future people have access to the wisdom of dharmic sages alongside the sometimes necessity of fear based religions.

I have been considering our indigineous people, the Maori. What existed before European colonisation were various tribes who at times co-existed in harmany with each other, at other times were at war. There was certainly wisdom born of the realities of tribalism and learning about communal living amidst the natural world. There would have been barbarism in that world too as everywhere else. Colonisation was a different form of brutality though. In Aoteoroa, New Zealand 16% of our population identifies as Maori so Maori culture is very much interwoven within modern New Zealand culture. My point is life changes in dramatic and unexpected ways. There are many things we have little or no control over and its hoped our spiritual and religious traditions enable us to meet and embrace those challenges. An essential aspect of embracing the world we inhabit is both finding our spiritual home and being comfortable with diversity represented by different tribes. So perhaps we are expressing similar ideals in different ways.
 
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