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For What Did Jesus Christ Die?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Zeke316, Jul 14, 2004.

  1. Zeke316

    Zeke316 Member

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    Did Jesus Christ die for:
    #1. All of the sins of all people,
    #2. All of the sins of some people,
    #3. Some of the sins of all people,

    Thamks for thinking;

    Zeke316
     
  2. Ronald

    Ronald Well-Known Member

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    Once for all, He was fond of the term, "Go and sin no more." then there's the quote "If we intentionally sin there remains no sacrifice for sin." and another like it sin again after the knowlege of Yeshua and call for his crusifixion again. (paraphrased)
     
  3. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    Hiya Zeke,

    #1 :mrgreen:

    By his glorious Cross Christ has won salvation for all men. He redeemed them from the sin that held them in bondage. "For freedom Christ has set us free."34 In him we have communion with the "truth that makes us free."35 The Holy Spirit has been given to us and, as the Apostle teaches, "Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom."36 Already we glory in the "liberty of the children of God."37

    34 Gal 5:1.
    35 Cf. Jn 8:32.
    36 2 Cor 17.
    37 Rom 8:21.


    Peace,
    Scott
     
  4. Sam Bloom

    Sam Bloom Member

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    Did everyone who died before Jesus go to hell?
     
  5. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    Hiya Sam,

    Yep.

    Better question: Are those who did not belong there still there?

    Answer: No.

    631 Jesus "descended into the lower parts of the earth. He who descended is he who also ascended far above all the heavens."476 The Apostles' Creed confesses in the same article Christ's descent into hell and his Resurrection from the dead on the third day, because in his Passover it was precisely out of the depths of death that he made life spring forth:

    Christ, that Morning Star, who came back from the dead, and shed his peaceful light on all mankind, your Son who lives and reigns for ever and ever. Amen.477

    Paragraph 1. Christ Descended into Hell

    632 The frequent New Testament affirmations that Jesus was "raised from the dead" presuppose that the crucified one sojourned in the realm of the dead prior to his resurrection.478 This was the first meaning given in the apostolic preaching to Christ's descent into hell: that Jesus, like all men, experienced death and in his soul joined the others in the realm of the dead. But he descended there as Savior, proclaiming the Good News to the spirits imprisoned there.479

    633 Scripture calls the abode of the dead, to which the dead Christ went down, "hell" - Sheol in Hebrew or Hades in Greek - because those who are there are deprived of the vision of God.480 Such is the case for all the dead, whether evil or righteous, while they await the Redeemer: which does not mean that their lot is identical, as Jesus shows through the parable of the poor man Lazarus who was received into "Abraham's bosom":481 "It is precisely these holy souls, who awaited their Savior in Abraham's bosom, whom Christ the Lord delivered when he descended into hell."482 Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but to free the just who had gone before him.483

    634 "The gospel was preached even to the dead."484 The descent into hell brings the Gospel message of salvation to complete fulfilment. This is the last phase of Jesus' messianic mission, a phase which is condensed in time but vast in its real significance: the spread of Christ's redemptive work to all men of all times and all places, for all who are saved have been made sharers in the redemption.

    635 Christ went down into the depths of death so that "the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live."485 Jesus, "the Author of life", by dying destroyed "him who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and [delivered] all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong bondage."486 Henceforth the risen Christ holds "the keys of Death and Hades", so that "at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth."487


    Today a great silence reigns on earth, a great silence and a great stillness. A great silence because the King is asleep. The earth trembled and is still because God has fallen asleep in the flesh and he has raised up all who have slept ever since the world began. . . He has gone to search for Adam, our first father, as for a lost sheep. Greatly desiring to visit those who live in darkness and in the shadow of death, he has gone to free from sorrow Adam in his bonds and Eve, captive with him - He who is both their God and the son of Eve. . . "I am your God, who for your sake have become your son. . . I order you, O sleeper, to awake. I did not create you to be a prisoner in hell. Rise from the dead, for I am the life of the dead."488

    IN BRIEF

    636 By the expression "He descended into hell", the Apostles' Creed confesses that Jesus did really die and through his death for us conquered death and the devil "who has the power of death" (Heb 2:14).

    637 In his human soul united to his divine person, the dead Christ went down to the realm of the dead. He opened heaven's gates for the just who had gone before him.

    476 Eph 4:9-10.
    477 Roman Missal, Easter Vigil 18, Exsultet.
    478 Acts 3:15; Rom 8:11; 1 Cor 15:20; cf. Heb 13:20.
    479 Cf. 1 Pet 3:18-19.
    480 Cf. Phil 2:10; Acts 2:24; Rev 1:18; Eph 4:9; Pss 6:6; 88:11-13.
    481 Cf. Ps 89:49; 1 Sam 28:19; Ezek 32:17-32; Lk 16:22-26.
    482 Roman Catechism I, 6, 3.
    483 Cf. Council of Rome (745): DS 587; Benedict XII, Cum dudum (1341): DS 1011; Clement VI, Super quibusdam (1351): DS 1077; Council of Toledo IV (625): DS 485; Mt 27:52-53.
    484 1 Pet 4:6.
    485 Jn 5:25; cf. Mt 12:40; Rom 10:7; Eph 4:9.
    486 Heb 2:14-15; cf. Acts 3:15.
    487 Rev 1:18; Phil 2:10.
    488 Ancient Homily for Holy Saturday: PG 43, 440A, 452C; LH, Holy Saturday, OR.



    Peace,
    Scott
     
  6. dan

    dan Well-Known Member

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    Christ died only to be resurrected. Christ suffered in the Garden of Gethsemane for all of the sins of all of the people that have faith in him, repent, are baptized, and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

    Of course not.
     
  7. Ronald

    Ronald Well-Known Member

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    Ps.16:10 and an old manuscript, are in disagreement, Sheol is clearly not tartaroo!
    I strongly disagree! the Messiah did not enter the everburning hell of the Greek Bible.
     
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  8. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    dan,

    Couple questions for ya..... :talk:

    Christ suffered in the Garden for our sins??????? Then what does this mean:........?
    Matthew 26:39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.
    Jesus did not want to take our sins?????
    Please explain.

    Did you forget to read:
    Hebrews 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;

    No mention of sins here...........


    Did Jesus die for ALL humanity or just those who "have faith in him, repent, are baptized, and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

    Thanks for clearing this up.

    Peace,
    Scott
     
  9. dan

    dan Well-Known Member

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    Atonement is not found in death, but in the shedding of the blood of the sacrifice. Christ had to die in order to be resurrected, and He naturally was a little nervous about it all, but the weight of the atonement took place in the Garden of Gethsemane when He took upon Himself our sins. He bled from every pore during the ordeal, and that was where His real apprehension was. The prospect of going through such a process was what made Him so depressed and shocked that night. His death was ony to cap it all off. He took upon Himself every sin that has ever or will ever be committed. We receive the blessings of the atonement when we fulfill the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel, namely, faith, repentence, baptism by immersion and the reception of the Gift of the Holy Ghost. After that we must strive to continually better ourselves and draw ever nearer unto Him.

    What does the word atonement mean? Many say it means at-one-ment, which is a good definition, but the etymology of the word reveals so much more. In Hebrew kaphar refers to a covering or a tight squeeze. A good analogy would be someone wrapping a cloak around another and squeezing them tightly. The Arabic denotes the same. In Latin it is grasping something firmly. In Persian it is an embrace, and the Egyptian heiroglyph is a torso with outstretched arms, signifying an intimate embrace. All of these meanings show us that the atonement is to bring us back to an intimate embrace with God (and it does mean to bring BACK. Reconciliation means to sit down AGAIN with someone). We can only return to God through the shedding of the blood of His Son. According to the movie The Passion of the Christ this was accomplished in the gratuitous beating of Christ, thus when John looks upon trhe blood literally spilling out of Christ's body he finally gets it. This isn't how it really happened, but it's nice to see someone recognizes that it's Christ's blood, and not His death that atone for our sins. The Old Testament is replete with references to the inherent value of the blood of the sacrificial victims. This seems to have been placed aside as Catholicism tightened its despotic grip on the world of Christianity, but they're coming around.
     
  10. anders

    anders Well-Known Member

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    dan,

    I don't believe in those things (any longer), but your post was beautiful and revealed a more thorough knowledge and understanding than most preachings I have heard.

    I am saving it. Thank you.
     
  11. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    dan,

    I agree with anders........... what a wonderful post.

    I don't agree with your assumption :wink: ........ but I loved the post anyhow...........!

    Peace be with you,
    Scott
     
  12. dan

    dan Well-Known Member

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    Well, thank you both, I appreciate it.
     
  13. hebrew

    hebrew Member

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    Christ existence and his death were for a certain people; TO BRING SALVATION TO ISREAL.ST.JOHN 4:22, ACT 5:31, ACTS 10:35. His death and resurrection was not for the heathen/gentile.
     
  14. Christ Michael

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    Christ NEVER died for anybody's sins !! That's a man-made, fear based theology. The definition of sin is : deliberate choice to do evil. Evil, however, is only POTENTIAL in our physical creation and as a potential it will be with us until the end of this creation. Potential evil equals POTENTIAL sin !! If you disagree with this statement please explain how it is that Christ died for all of our sins!!



    Cheers
     
  15. Ceridwen018

    Ceridwen018 Well-Known Member

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    Well, Christ Michael, your explanation is alien made, so I'm not really getting your point here.
     
  16. Allan

    Allan Member

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    In modern terms the explanation would go something like this.

    All the reality of human activity is obvious to everyone as the news is watched, they interact locally and within the family. There is a mental activity going on that produces or hatches out physical completion. But it takes place seemingly supernaturally. There is a strong connection where one person can be said to get into anothers head. Most poeple don't want this to happen because they know how they might feel or what it takes to resist someone elses belief.

    This causes chemical and hormonal changes as a defense that reflect in emmotions passions and conflicts. The blood in the body flows to balance the whole body, all the organs, glands, cells and brain.

    Some people have had a short term personality change after having had a blood transfusion.

    The mind is the source and is a balancing power house which has input from the brain, self belief, human nature takes a part and God gives the Human spirit. A life force.

    Human sin is using God power to empower self and is regarded as rebelliousness which then removes or hides God from sight.

    Rebelliousness is as witchcraft and is the ability to penetrate the subconscious of another. Getting into someones head. There is aggressive penetration and determined defence.

    The Bible is describing the reality of what is going on now and what needs to be done to counter it.

    Some of all human interaction goes beyond what is seen and takes place in the mental realm and infact it is expressed in the language of how we explain the ineraction.

    Jesus resisted interacting in the human realm of the mind and had a much more gentle nature. His thoughts were different and came out of a different mind.

    This new mind can be shown supernaturaly to an individual and expresses another more gentle nature. It is perfect and acceptable to God and is like a conduit to God because no one could rationalize God and this new mind gives an ability to have intimate knowledge of God, to be a child of God.

    Most Christians do not understand the power of this in modern terms and the Bible is a good reference to increase understanding of the real situation on the earth, but it takes supernatural power to connect with the new mind and nature.

    It is hard to understand the supernatural, everyone is blinded to its existance because all are mostly equally empowered and not many have extra skills. This leaves everyone only using low level power of witchcraft.

    But then humans can't really comprehend the possibility of dimensional time travel, the size of the universe, gravity, electricity etc., although all use and live with them.

    The greatest deception to day is that most would say there is no, extra, beyond the normal power being used by humans when they interact, other than the physical.

    Be transformed by the renewing of your mind.
    Give your body as a living sacrifice
     
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