For Torath Mosheh Jews Only: Who is Hashem?

[dybmh]

Greetings Rachel. It is important to note that Torath Mosheh includes the rulings of the Sanhedrins on halakha as I mentioned in the video.

Doesn't the Mishnah prohibit learning greek wisdom? And yet Rambam is clearly influenced by it? And if I understand, Rambam says this is required, knowing the "natural law" is required?

Sota 49b: "אָרוּר אָדָם שֶׁיְּלַמֵּד לִבְנוֹ חׇכְמַת יְווֹנִית" - cursed is the person who teaches his son Greek wisdom

 

[Ehav4Ever]

The first problem with this notion of HaShem lacking emotions, is that HaShem doesn't lack anything.

Saying that Hashem lacks something is different than saying Hashem created something and not subject to something Hashem created. For example, does Hashem lack a son (singular) or does Hashem not have a son (singular) or does Hashem not do the concept of sons like humans do? Does Hashem lack the ability to be depressed or does Hashem not get depressed or does depression not factor in to the Source of all reality? Does Hashem lack the ability to be physically injured or by Hashem very nature Hashem doesn't get injured or Hashem does not get injured?

I am very specific with my words. I did not use the word "lack."

Claiming that I have something, which HaShem cannot have descrbes a god which is incomplete and imperfect. Is HaShem limited in scope?

Let's ask the question. You have a physical body that is located on the planet earth. Does Hashem have a physical body located on the planet earth? You and I are the sons of human men, is Hashem the son of a human man?

Of course not. Hashem has the ability to not do something and not be something. Thus, we know that Hashem would never make himself a human and have a son, like the Christians claim, not because He can't do it - but Hashem has already made it clear that he won't do something like that.

Further, as the Torah itself states:

The second problem is claiming that HaShem cannot change puts a limit on HaShem's power. This describes a god which is limited in what it can or cannot choose to do. Is HaShem limited in power?

Again, I did not state that "Hashem cannot change" I stated what Hashem stated about himself He doesn't change. I.e. change is a human concept and change takes place due to the fact that matter changes. Time changes, locations change. Thus, does Hashem have the power to change the way human beings do and the something made of matter and affected by time does? Of course. Does Hashem do that - according to Hashem, no.

The third problem is that the Torah justification for the idea that HaShem doesn't change is itself a statement communicated in human terms.

So, let's address that. Does Hashem forget things the way human beings do? Meaning, does Hashem think of something - forget that he thought about and only later remember that he thought about something? If so, how does that work? If not, why not and how is that not limiting Hashem? Is Hashem affected by time? For example, does Hashem ever run out of time and do things in a hurry because he realized he didn't do something on time? Does Hashem procrastinate in a negative way like humans do?

In terms of context, not at all.

You'll note that the verse in 2 Samuel talks about HaShem's "mind". Further these verses about HaShem not changing are taken out of context. Is the Torah written in human language? If so, shouldn't that be applied consistently?

Something like that you have to read in Hebrew.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

And if I understand, Rambam says this is required, knowing the "natural law" is required?

No, he is talking about science and the understanding of how the world works. In he also states that tribe of Yisahhar had their own school of Torah based scientific learning. We no longer have what they did because of the Assyrian invasion.

Doesn't the Mishnah prohibit learning greek wisdom? And yet Rambam is clearly influenced by it?
Sota 49b: "אָרוּר אָדָם שֶׁיְּלַמֵּד לִבְנוֹ חׇכְמַת יְווֹנִית" - cursed is the person who teaches his son Greek wisdom

See the below.

לימוד חכמה יוונית | תורת הר עציון

 

[Ehav4Ever]

In regard to emotions, it seems like the following are being overlooked?

וְיָֽדַעְתָּ הַיּוֹם וַֽהֲשֵֽׁבֹתָ אֶל־לְבָבֶךָ כִּי יְהֹוָה הוּא הָֽאֱלֹהִים בַּשָּׁמַיִם מִמַּעַל וְעַל־הָאָרֶץ מִתָּחַת אֵין עֽוֹד׃

"אֵין עֽוֹד"!

and

יְהֹוָה אֵל עֶלְיוֹן קֹנֵה שָׁמַיִם וָאָֽרֶץ׃

"קֹנֵה שָׁמַיִם וָאָֽרֶץ"

Therefore, anything that exists here, is possessed by HaShem? There is nothing else?

Those pasukim don't state that Hashem has the attributes of a human and they don't state Hashem has emotions, that can be equated to what humans call emotions. They state what I have been saying that Hashem is the source of reality. I.e. Hashem created everything and is the source of how everthing is established.

They don't state that Hashem has human emotions. For example, does Hashem get depressed or lonely? Does Hashem have uncontrolled rage? Further, does Hashem lose track of time and worse yet does Hashem do aveiroth?

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Human emotions...

Even Rambam writes:

וְלֹא חָכְמָה כְּחָכְמַת הָאִישׁ הֶחָכָם
​

Why not simply apply that to all emotions and attributes as well?

Simple, if you read what the Rambam wrote just a bit further, he explains that this is the human perspective of what we perceive from Hashem when we look at what Hashem created. See below.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Do you belong to a congregation that identifies entirely as Torath Mosheh?

I live in Israel, Jerusalem specifically. I am a part of the Yemenite Jewish community (Baladi and Shami) as well the Sephardic community. There are times when I with the Moroccan and Spanish/Portugese communities. There are of course here what is considered Kelali minyanim that are made up of all Datiim from Sephardim, Hasidim, Yemenites, Chabadnikim, Nusahh Ashkenaz, Ethiopian, Mizrahim,

I have noticed that you list "Torath Mosheh" as your religion in your forum profile, rather than simply using the terms "Judaism" or "Jewish" as every other Jew on this forum has done.

Because the structure of the forum is set up the way it is, I put Torath Mosheh there. I don't use the concept of "religion." Here in Israel, the terms in Hebrew don't really mean what the English means. For example, Dati here usually means you keep Torah the way that Sephardim, Mizrahhim, Orthodox, Hasidim, Heriedim, Yemenites, and Ethiopians do.

In terms of using the term Judaism and Jewish. There is a lot of debate on this forum that I avoid due to using a term that doesn't get me mixed up things that I am not a part of. For example, there are at least 5 or 6 Christians on this forum who have claimed to be Jewish. Some of them at different points added "Judaism" and "Jewish" to their religion to misrepresent themselves. One of them even did so to make comments on the Orthodox Judaism DIR. Also, there have been some questioners who are utterly confused by the whole Orthodox-Conservative-Reform-etc. thing. I have the ability to avoid all of that, most of the time.

 

[Rachel Rugelach]

I live in Israel, Jerusalem specifically. I am a part of the Yemenite Jewish community (Baladi and Shami) as well the Sephardic community. There are times when I with the Moroccan and Spanish/Portugese communities. There are of course here what is considered Kelali minyanim that are made up of all Datiim from Sephardim, Hasidim, Yemenites, Chabadnikim, Nusahh Ashkenaz, Ethiopian, Mizrahim,

I see. But my question is: Do you belong to a congregation that identifies itself specifically and exclusively as Torath Mosheh?

Because the structure of the forum is set up the way it is, I put Torath Mosheh there. I don't use the concept of "religion."

Perhaps this is why I can't help but see your profile identification of "Torath Mosheh," your many posts here about Torath Mosheh (and not much else), your personal YouTube channel and your self-published book all as a means of self-promotion. Apologies to you if I've got you wrong. If there were others like you, I might be inclined to say that your posted graphics/charts and videos show that "Torath Mosheh Jews" is a genuine "thing." But, honestly, you seem to be quite unique.

 

[dybmh]

Saying that Hashem lacks something is different than saying Hashem created something and not subject to something Hashem created. For example, does Hashem lack a son (singular) or does Hashem not have a son (singular) or does Hashem not do the concept of sons like humans do? Does Hashem lack the ability to be depressed or does Hashem not get depressed or does depression not factor in to the Source of all reality? Does Hashem lack the ability to be physically injured or by Hashem very nature Hashem doesn't get injured or Hashem does not get injured?

All of these are good questions. The simple answer is nothing can be excluded from HaShem. Saying HaShem cannot X, Y, or Z is imagining HaShem in human terms. This is folly. The attempt to prevent imagining a human-like god is resulting in imagining a human-like god.

I am very specific with my words. I did not use the word "lack."

Good. It has been confirmed, and hopefully the OP is taking note, Torath Mosheh cannot describe HaShem lacking anything. That is heretical.

The OP makes a specific statement: "from what I understand from Torath Mosheh Jews is that they don't believe that Hashem has any emotions or feelings."

So, precisely, is it correct to say HaShem doesn't have any X, Y, Z? Is that Torath Mosheh? Or is it Rambam's philosophy?

Let's ask the question. You have a physical body that is located on the planet earth. Does Hashem have a physical body located on the planet earth?

Yes! My physical body *IS* HaShem's physical body. It belongs to HaShem. What ever I do, see, feel, think, is all part of HaShem. And none of this is limited to me, or you, or now, or even the future. HaShem's physical body includes each and every material "thing" in creation. So Yes, HaShem has an infinite human body, but is not limited to this human body. Note... "has" as in possesses... not "has" as in in the shape of.

You and I are the sons of human men, is Hashem the son of a human man?

Each and every human son, each and every human father is included in HaShem. But HaShem is not limited to this. It is incorrect for me to claim what HaShem is.

Of course not. Hashem has the ability to not do something and not be something. Thus, we know that Hashem would never make himself a human and have a son, like the Christians claim, not because He can't do it - but Hashem has already made it clear that he won't do something like that.

Hmmmm, I understand the desire to undermine the Christian faith... but that is trading one heresy for another.

Further, as the Torah itself states:

And, who said this? Is this Torath Mosheh (Moshe's teaching/law)? Or is it Torath Bilaam (Bilaam's teaching/law)?

 

[dybmh]

Again, I did not state that "Hashem cannot change" I stated what Hashem stated about himself He doesn't change. I.e. change is a human concept and change takes place due to the fact that matter changes. Time changes, locations change. Thus, does Hashem have the power to change the way human beings do and the something made of matter and affected by time does? Of course. Does Hashem do that - according to Hashem, no.

why stop there? The next verse is important, isn't it?

למימי אבתיכם סרתם מחקי ולא שמרתם שובו אלי ואשובה אליכם אמר יהוה צבאות ואמרתם במה נשוב׃

Return to me, and I will return to you...

And if a person keeps reading regardless of whether it is literal or not, isn't the message that the prophet is bringing the exact opposite of "HaShem is not effected by human actions"?

So, let's address that. Does Hashem forget things the way human beings do? Meaning, does Hashem think of something - forget that he thought about and only later remember that he thought about something? If so, how does that work?

well, kind of, but not exactly... HaShem forgetting something is essentially its complete destruction. If I understand, this is a possibility per RaMHa"L (Ma'Amar Ha'Iqarim, BaGan 'Eden WeGehinnom). I haven't read it myself, so I can't say for sure. But, theorhetically, one of these souls could be "remembered" at some point bringing them back into existence.

Something like that you have to read in Hebrew.

Wrong verse... 2 Samuel 15:29... in post #11, you brought someone else's derivation that HaShem cannot change. One of the verses they brought was 2 Samuel 15:19. But, all this verse is saying is that HaShem doesn't go back on a promise. But the proof you brought seems to elevate it beyond that.

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Yes, I understand what Redak is saying. You have stated this previously. My question is: if some aspects of the verse are interpretted non-literally, why are the verses that talk about change being interpretted literally? This seems to be inconsistent, forcing a conclusion which is out of context with the message the prophet is bringing.

 

[dybmh]

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לימוד חכמה יוונית | תורת הר עציון

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If this is valid, then what's wrong with a masoreti approach?

 

[rosends]

I just looked up a verse that I first heard about years ago, which was explained to me (who did not happen to be a Torath Mosheh Jew) that God loved his people so much, that if you went up against them, it was like touching the pupil of his eye. And the way that it was explained to me those many years ago was that this was an analogy of the pain that was felt by touching a human being's eye pupil. Also, even though I found several translations that render Zechariah 2:8 this way, (including the New World Translation), the majority of translations use the words "the apple of his eyes." However, from the information that I looked up, those terms are supposed to be related and interchangeable and have a Biblical origin.

click here: Apple of My Eye - Bible Meaning, Origin and Defintion (biblestudytools.com)

But anyway, from what I understand from Torath Mosheh Jews is that they don't believe that Hashem has any emotions or feelings. Therefore, I ask them the questions: Who is Hashem? What are his motives? What does humankind mean to him? Why did he even create humans? Why did he even create anything? What's in it for him? Why does the Hebrew text say that he's patience and forgiving and that he cares about humankind when apparently, he doesn't, since he doesn't have any emotions?

Also, why do Torath Mosheh Jews and Orthodox Jews even care, and what are their motives and how do they feel about Hashem? Especially, since they don't believe that Hashem loves them or has any feelings for them.

to try and describe Hashem is to fail in the attempt. The Jewish idea of God defies human comprehension so any attempt to attempt has already fallen short. Sadly, all we have are our human brains and language. But the finite cannot capture the infinite. We impose words figures of speech and human laws and logic and some are mistaken into believing that our intellectual containers, as they come up empty, must be making insightful and accurate observations and conclusions.

The Ein Sof isn't infinite. He is infinity, itself. Trying to quantify and work with the concept simply won't work.

God (Hashem) is infinite and infinity in all directions and dimensions. The linguistic loops people try to impose, and the expressions of human thinking that we rely on to make sense of our world won't work. Even Jewish mysticism is really just a way to approach our inability to understand, not to provide understanding.

 

[dybmh]

Those pasukim don't state that Hashem has the attributes of a human and they don't state Hashem has emotions, that can be equated to what humans call emotions. They state what I have been saying that Hashem is the source of reality. I.e. Hashem created everything and is the source of how everthing is established.

Those verses say "Ain Od" there is nothing else.

HaShem's unity is without division. Creation in the Torah is a miraculous event; HaShem spoke, and it was. These words are not seperate from HaShem, they are part of a perfect unity. Everything that exists and everything that doesn't is, was, and will be part of that unity. This means, Torath Mosheh is describing a form of monism. All of creation are HaShem's attributes. Every human emotion is part of that unity as well. If not, then HaShem is not complete and perfect.

אַתָּה הָרְאֵתָ לָדַעַת כִּי יְהֹוָה הוּא הָֽאֱלֹהִים אֵין עוֹד מִלְּבַדּֽוֹ׃

To you it was shown, that you might know that the HaShem is Elokim; there is nothing else beside him.

וְיָֽדַעְתָּ הַיּוֹם וַֽהֲשֵֽׁבֹתָ אֶל־לְבָבֶךָ כִּי יְהֹוָה הוּא הָֽאֱלֹהִים בַּשָּׁמַיִם מִמַּעַל וְעַל־הָאָרֶץ מִתָּחַת אֵין עֽוֹד׃

Know therefore this day, and consider it in your heart, that the HaShem is Elokim in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath; there is nothing else.

שְׁמַע יִשְׂרָאֵל יְהֹוָה אֱלֹהֵינוּ יְהֹוָה אֶחָֽד׃

Hear, O Israel; HaShem Elokeinu HaShem is one​

These ideas are not mine, they are brought by Rabbi Schneur Zalman of Liadi, affectionately known as the Alter Rebbe. See below:

https://www.chabad.org/library/tanya/tanya_cdo/aid/7899/jewish/Chapter-20.htm

https://www.chabad.org/library/tanya/tanya_cdo/aid/7900/jewish/Chapter-21.htm

https://www.chabad.org/library/tanya/tanya_cdo/aid/7992/jewish/Chapter-6.htm​

And I'll leave you with this, confirmation of HaShem's love, directly from Mosheh who hopefully over-rules Bilaam in your philosophy. HaShem didn't listen to Bilaam, that should mean something.

וְלֹֽא־אָבָה יְהֹוָה אֱלֹהֶיךָ לִשְׁמֹעַֽ אֶל־בִּלְעָם וַיַּֽהֲפֹךְ יְהֹוָה אֱלֹהֶיךָ לְּךָ אֶת־הַקְּלָלָה לִבְרָכָה כִּי אֲהֵֽבְךָ יְהֹוָה אֱלֹהֶֽיךָ׃

Nevertheless HaShem Elokecha would not listen to Bilaam; but HaShem Elokecha turned the curse into a blessing to you, because HaShem Elokecha loved you.​

 

[Ehav4Ever]

But anyway, from what I understand from Torath Mosheh Jews is that they don't believe that Hashem has any emotions or feelings.

In order to understand teh difficult you may with this let's deal with the two words you mention. Emotions and Feelings. First problem we have is that the Tanakh was not written in English. So, since the Tanakh is the source text one would have to see what words in Ancient Hebrew are used to define "emotions" and "feelings" and in what context they are used. One may also find that the English definition of "emotions" and "feelings" are not equivalent in ancient Hebrew - especially in relation to Hashem.

Here is an example of what I mean. In English Emotions are defined as:

This then brings up the questions of:

1. Where in the Torah is Hashem described to have "physiological experience with behavioral expression of feelings in response to any sensory information. The behavioral changes include musculoskeletal, autonomic, and endocrine responses"?
2. Where in the Torah is Hashem described to have "mental states brought on by neurophysiological changes, variously associated with thoughts, feelings, behavioral responses, and a degree of pleasure or displeasure"?
3. If one had to describe, in ancient Hebrew, the above English definitions how would one write it out?
4. Where do the rabbis who wrote commentaries of the Torah, in their own words in Hebrew/Aramaic, ever describe Hashem exactly in the way the English defintion does?

In terms of feelings,

Thus, you see that scientifically feelings are considered to be connected to bodily or physical sensations and the definitions even in English are debated.

That being said, one can't apply Human and English terms to something that is not human and to something that is beyond human understanding.

See the following video that does a good job of addressing this from both angles. i.e. Angle 1 - Hashem is beyond human experience/understanding and can't be defined by such and b) if one wants to say Hashem has emotions they are way beyond what humans know/define/experience as emotions. Both positions lead back to the same path Hashem beyond human experience.

The full video can be viewed at the below link.

https://www.alephbeta.org/playlist/gods-name-ehyeh-asher-ehyeh-meaning

 

[Ehav4Ever]

I see. But my question is: Do you belong to a congregation that identifies itself specifically and exclusively as Torath Mosheh?

Yes, but not in the way you are asking. Again, Torath Mosheh is not a "movement." If you ask anyone who keeps Torah and Halakha from Mount Sinai and the Sanhedrins if they hold by Torath Mosheh they would answer yes. That means they are a Torath Mosheh Jew. Further, by using that statement everyone in my community understands what is intended by it.

Perhaps this is why I can't help but see your profile identification of "Torath Mosheh," your many posts here about Torath Mosheh (and not much else), your personal YouTube channel and your self-published book all as a means of self-promotion.

If that is the case, can you explain why Rabbi Mosheh Alsheikh called his book with pirushim on the Torah - Torath Mosheh? Also, why did the Rambam use the term in the 13 principles of the Torah in his commentary of the Mishnah? Also, why is the term used in the Tanakh by Malakhi to decribe the Torah and Halakha that Mosheh (Moses)?

If I am "self promoting" I would

1. be the only who ever used such a term
2. Tell people only I am correct and not provide sources for what I state
3. Stating things that I did not learn from a valid rabbi
4. Make myself out to be the leader of a movement

Apologies to you if I've got you wrong. If there were others like you, I might be inclined to say that your posted graphics/charts and videos show that "Torath Mosheh Jews" is a genuine "thing." But, honestly, you seem to be quite unique.

Quick question. Do you have a Orthodox Rav you learn from? If so, ask him if he has ever heard of the term Torath Mosheh being used in the Tanakh, by the Rishonim, and the Ahhronim. If he says yes, ask him what they meant by the term. Then ask him if someone who doesn't hold by halakha from a Sanhedrin is a Jew who holds by Torath Moshe.

Another question, how much experience do you have in the Yemenite and Sephardic communities who speak Hebrew?

 

[Ehav4Ever]

If this is valid, then what's wrong with a masoreti approach?

The problem is that masorti approach is the part of the approach that they can a) ignore or reinterpret mitzvoth from the Torah against what Hazal from all ancient Jewish communities, b) ignore rulings in the Torah from Sanhedrin, and c) make themselves to be a Sanhedrin w/o the proper midot of smicha.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

why stop there? The next verse is important, isn't it?

למימי אבתיכם סרתם מחקי ולא שמרתם שובו אלי ואשובה אליכם אמר יהוה צבאות ואמרתם במה נשוב׃

Return to me, and I will return to you...

And if a person keeps reading regardless of whether it is literal or not, isn't the message that the prophet is bringing the exact opposite of "HaShem is not effected by human actions"?

No, because Hashem established from the start that if Am Yisrael return to the right path it is automatic in the reality created that the benifit of keeping the Torah would automatically follow. Hashem didn't change, we did. This is why in Ha'azinu Hashem already explained what would happen in the future and how things would turn out.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

to try and describe Hashem is to fail in the attempt. The Jewish idea of God defies human comprehension so any attempt to attempt has already fallen short. Sadly, all we have are our human brains and language. But the finite cannot capture the infinite. We impose words figures of speech and human laws and logic and some are mistaken into believing that our intellectual containers, as they come up empty, must be making insightful and accurate observations and conclusions.

The Ein Sof isn't infinite. He is infinity, itself. Trying to quantify and work with the concept simply won't work.

God (Hashem) is infinite and infinity in all directions and dimensions. The linguistic loops people try to impose, and the expressions of human thinking that we rely on to make sense of our world won't work. Even Jewish mysticism is really just a way to approach our inability to understand, not to provide understanding.

Exactly. This is exactly what I am getting at. In addition if we are using English to discuss these things, but the Tanakh, Hazal, etc. were writing in Hebrew now you have another layer to add to the linqustic issues.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

And, who said this? Is this Torath Mosheh (Moshe's teaching/law)? Or is it Torath Bilaam (Bilaam's teaching/law)?

Are you saying that Bilam was wrong about what he stated? Also, if you go a few pasukhim earlier you will notice.

If so, where do you find support from Hazal that Bilam's statement was wrong about this? Also, was Bilam wrong about the following?

 

[dybmh]

The problem is that masorti approach is the part of the approach that they can a) ignore or reinterpret mitzvoth from the Torah against what Hazal from all ancient Jewish communities, b) ignore rulings in the Torah from Sanhedrin, and c) make themselves to be a Sanhedrin w/o the proper midot of smicha.

You have a point about s'micha. But reinterpretation is precisely what's happening if a person ignores the prohibition against foreign influence, following the practices of the other nations.

 

[dybmh]

Are you saying that Bilam was wrong about what he stated? Also, if you go a few pasukhim earlier you will notice.

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If so, where do you find support from Hazal that Bilam's statement was wrong about this? Also, was Bilam wrong about the following?

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Bilaam wasn't wrong about those things. But Billaam has a different relationship with HaShem than Mosheh, that is clear from the text. I'm quite sure I can find support for that. Mosheh and Bilaam are contrasted by commentators. So, it makes sense that Mosheh and Avraham can appeal to HaShem, but Bilaam cannot. Bilaam describing HaShem as a force of nature makes sense for him, but should not be lifted up as a teaching from Mosheh. They are contrasted for a reason.

Also, the message here is HaShem doesn't lie. It's not applying a global limitation on HaShem. That is taking it out of context.