for Tom

[Jensen]

Hi Tom. I spent the last hour replying to you on my new laptop, with windows 7, and when I posted it, it simply disappeared. Windows 7 is the hardest thing I've ever worked with. Nearly everything I type disappears, and I haven't been able to figure out why. The other site still will not let me post most of the time, I tried several time....but it did once more to get you the message that I’m over here. Hope that you will show up, I think I saw you here in the past. If you come on , let me know that it is you …somehow.

As for Jer 23:6, I looked up the verse in several different bibles and most do say Lord of righteousness, yet it is God speaking here: the thing is why would God be saying that he (God) is going to raise up for David a righteous branch if that branch is God Himself? Does God raise up Himself (God) as a righteous branch for David? Is God Himself a descendant of David? God does not seem here to be raising up Himself , but another as the branch that will be called Lord of righteousness because it is through him, the branch, Jesus, that God will be bringing justice and righteousness to Judah and Israel.


I'll wait before I go on to see if you come here and answer...this is a workable site, have been here for sometime, I just didn't post much in the past.


Jensen

 

[icebuddy]

I have been on a mini vacation and just got back. My kids are growing up so fast and I want to cherrish every moment together. Anyways, i still have Windows Vista and my laptop has Windows 7. I save everything before pushing the send button on my notepad. I posted this on the other web site about my book

My book is for my children and family use only, no names or anything is being put into it. Im using your beliefs as well as some JW's (simalar) so that I can explain to my kids some of the questions that arise in religious debates or questions. No negative here or I would not be a christian at heart. As I grow in my faith towards Jesus my love also grows as well. i was just praying to be a better person and to become a better stewart of the Holy Spirit.

As for Jer 23:6, I looked up the verse in several different bibles and most do say Lord of righteousness, yet it is God speaking here: the thing is why would God be saying that he (God) is going to raise up for David a righteous branch if that branch is God Himself?

Jensen/AC
You know thats the basic Trinitarian thinking, that God entered time and space through the person Jesus. That Jesus is both God(root of david) and man(ofspring of david). [Rev 22:16] I view Jesus as an extention of God that entered our time and space. Dont forget that Jesus is both Son of God as well as Son of man. To say Jesus is Jehovah is not something to be afraid of or nervous of, Jesus is Gods unique and only Son born in this way and all titles of Jehovah are applied to Jesus as well. Rock, creator, maker, God, YHWH, and many more.(none left out)

Does God raise up Himself (God) as a righteous branch for David?

i believe God does raise part of himself to his creation. Rev 22:16 says Jesus is both the Root and offspring of David. I believe some people only view Jesus as the offspring of David or focus on that too hard and totaly miss Jesus as the Root, creator, God, Mighty God, YHWH, and see 1 Cor 10:1-4 as telling us of this.

Is God Himself a descendant of David?

Again I point to Rev 22:16. Dont forget Jesus created everything John 1:3 and is the Eternal Word 1John1:1-5. The Jews themselves think its impossible for the Eternal Word to be a descendant of David, yet its true. Why is it easy for you to believe the Eternal Word can become a descendant of David yet God cannot?

God does not seem here to be raising up Himself , but another as the branch that will be called Lord of righteousness because it is through him, the branch, Jesus, that God will be bringing justice and righteousness to Judah and Israel.

I would say, God the Father raised up one who already existed from time eternal (1John1:1-5) and that this one is also known as God, Creator, Maker, Mighty God, our Rock, and is the exact representation of God, because he too is God. And that no regular man nor angel could redeem us, only Jesus, who is part of the Body of God with the Father.

Jensen/AC,
i would ask you the question, who did God raise up? Where did he come from? i ask this because we all know Jesus existed before he apeared on earth, so lets take the steps together to see who he was before he was raised up or better put, emptied himself to become a man. (Phil 2:5-8)

i would start at 1John1:1-5 (all bible state the same thing) is the Word of life eternal?

In Love,
Tom

 

[icebuddy]

Reposted with some minor edits and additions (additions in blue)

I have been on a mini vacation and just got back. My kids are growing up so fast and I want to cherrish every moment together. Anyways, i still have Windows Vista and my laptop has Windows 7. I save everything before pushing the send button on my notepad. I posted this on the other web site about my book

My book is for my children and family use only, no names or anything is being put into it. Im using your beliefs as well as some JW's (simalar) so that I can explain to my kids some of the questions that arise in religious debates or questions. No negative here or I would not be a christian at heart. As I grow in my faith towards Jesus my love also grows as well. i was just praying to be a better person and to become a better stewart of the Holy Spirit.

As for Jer 23:6, I looked up the verse in several different bibles and most do say Lord of righteousness, yet it is God speaking here: the thing is why would God be saying that he (God) is going to raise up for David a righteous branch if that branch is God Himself?

Jensen/AC
You know thats the basic Trinitarian thinking, that God entered time and space through the person Jesus. That Jesus is both God(root of david) and man(offspring of david). [Rev 22:16] I view Jesus as an extention of God that entered our time and space. Dont forget that Jesus is both Son of God as well as Son of man. To say Jesus is Jehovah is not something to be afraid of or nervous of, Jesus is Gods unique and only Son born in this way and all titles of Jehovah are applied to Jesus as well. Rock, creator, maker, God, YHWH, and many more.(none left out)

Does God raise up Himself (God) as a righteous branch for David?

I believe God does raise part of himself to his creation. Rev 22:16 says Jesus is both the Root and offspring of David. I believe some people only view Jesus as the offspring of David or focus on that too hard and totaly miss Jesus as the Root, creator, God, Mighty God, YHWH, and see 1 Cor 10:1-4 as telling us of this. I believe God can do anything, including be in multiple places in different forms, if he so wishes.

Is God Himself a descendant of David?

Again I point to Rev 22:16. Dont forget Jesus created everything John 1:3 and is the Eternal Word 1John1:1-5. The Jews themselves think its impossible for the Eternal Word to be a descendant of David, yet its true. Why is it easy for you to believe the Eternal Word can become a descendant of David yet God cannot? (Mark 12:37)

God does not seem here to be raising up Himself , but another as the branch that will be called Lord of righteousness because it is through him, the branch, Jesus, that God will be bringing justice and righteousness to Judah and Israel.

I would say, God the Father raised up one who already existed from time eternal (1John1:1-5) and that this one is also known as God, Creator, Maker, Mighty God, our Rock, and is the exact representation of God, because he too is God. And that no regular man nor angel could redeem us, only Jesus, who is part of the Body of God with the Father. Not multiple Gods, but one Body of God that is united (the Hebrew word for God is in the plural). Read 1 Cor 12:12-26 to see how our Bodies are made up of many parts, but still remain as one Body. I say this because God made us in his(their) image or after his(Their) likeness. (Gen 1:26) Then why think of God as a single digit being without many parts? Can the Father say to Jesus, "I dont need you? or can we say to the Father that we only worship your head and not the rest of your body(Jesus)? John 5:23

Rom 10:9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile--the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him,

The next verse is the kicker and even the NWT has changed it because they cannot avoid it either, yet what is the context? This is why my belief and the JWs differ so much baised on their understanding of the following verse.

Rom 10:13 for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord(Canged to Jehovah in NWT) will be saved."

Jesus is Jehovah God with the Father as I believe Isaiah 44:6-8 with 1 Cor 10:1-4 & Jer 23:6 states

Jensen/AC,
i would ask you the question, who did God raise up? Where did he come from? i ask this because we all know Jesus existed before he apeared on earth, so lets take the steps together to see who he was before he was raised up or better put, emptied himself to become a man. (Phil 2:5-8)

i would start at 1John1:1-5 (all bible state the same thing) is the Word of life eternal?

In Love,
Tom

 

[Jensen]

Hi Icebuddies,

I see that you have come on. Thanks for that and for the replies, but it will be awhile before I can get to this as I've been sick now for almost two weeks. Am starting to get better finally. Also you are presenting so much to go over, it will take time. It may be next week before I can get to it. I also have to think on what you have posted so far. Sorry for keeping you waiting.

Good to hear that you had a good time on vacation with you kids.

respectfully,

Jensen/AC

 

[Jensen]

(I think that being the root of David means that he is David’s Christ and savior, his Lord, and the offspring of David means that he is David biological descendent. In Rev 22:16 he is just expressing who he is. It doesn’t say that he is Jehovah or that he is an extention of God in time and space, or that he is also God in the Trinitarian way. It says ….I Jesus, have sent mine angels to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
Also Peter was called a rock, and judges and Moses were called god in the OT, man is called gods in Psalm 82:6, yet it doesn’t mean that they are God. Neither does it mean that Jesus is God. This is how I see it. )
Quote:
Does God raise up Himself (God) as a righteous branch for David?

I believe God does raise part of himself to his creation. Rev 22:16 says Jesus is both the Root and offspring of David. I believe some people only view Jesus as the offspring of David or focus on that too hard and totaly miss Jesus as the Root, creator, God, Mighty God, YHWH, and see 1 Cor 10:1-4 as telling us of this. I believe God can do anything, including be in multiple places in different forms, if he so wishes

(Again, being the root of David means that without him being David’s Christ and savior, David will not have life….meaning resurrected life, and doesn’t mean that he is God. It appears to me that your beliefs are more Oneness than Trinitarian. Concerning 1 Cor 10:1-4, again, Peter was also called a rock; it is what the name means, and doesn’t mean that he is God.)

Quote:
Is God Himself a descendant of David?

Again I point to Rev 22:16. Dont forget Jesus created everything John 1:3 and is the Eternal Word 1John1:1-5. The Jews themselves think its impossible for the Eternal Word to be a descendant of David, yet its true. Why is it easy for you to believe the Eternal Word can become a descendant of David yet God cannot? (Mark 12:37)

(Because God is eternal; and is not descended from a human being.)

(When someone represents, it is usually of someone else. Why would one need to represent himself? I agree that no regular man or angel could redeen us, but who says that Jesus is a regular man? It is the sinless man Jesus, the Son of God, the Christ, that redeems us. There is nothing regular about that. The bible says that it is to be a man made like unto us, but sinless to save us, not that he must be God himself. I would not call Jesus, the Son of God, a body part, it just doesn’t feel right. It doesn’t seem like honoring him to me, he is not a mere body part. )

(As for the mighty god in Isaiah 9:6, one needs to keep in mind that in Hebrew, there were no capitalizing of letters, so it would have read as mighty god, not Mighty God. There is no reason to think that Jesus is being called Jehovah God here when we are called gods in Psalm 82:6…”I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High,” which isn’t saying that the children of God are God Himself, why should it mean that Jesus is then God in Isaiah 9-6?)

(I will look into verse Romans 10:13 more closely and may have something later to say on it. It has always been my understanding that Jehovah is that name of God the Father, and that Trinitarianism does not believe that Jesus is the Father, that is Oneness, and again, it seems to me that your beliefs are more Oneness than Trinitarian.)

Jensen

 

[icebuddy]

I think that being the root of David means that he is David’s Christ and savior, his Lord,

AC,
Jesus often talked about The Jews being branches of a family tree and the gentiles being graphted in. When Jesus says hes the root of david, i connect Hebrews 1:3 that says Jesus upholds everything by his power. In this, we also read Jesus expresses the Father Fully and exactly. That is why I believe we read we are to Honor them the same. John 5:23
If you think about it, do you really honor Jesus exactly as you honor the Father? Im not going to answer that for you, but honor is the ammount of value we place upon them. If we were to hold an auction and they were side by side, who would you bid higher for? Or would you bid the same? I say this because most JW place a much higher value upon the Father Jehovah than Jesus in my opinion.

and the offspring of David means that he is David biological descendent.

Agreed But Jesus is telling us not to just focus our attention upon his biological point of view. (where he was sujected) But also to know that he is the "Root" of david. Every bone in my body is telling me this means Davids Creator. (in which he is)

It doesn’t say that he is Jehovah or that he is an extention of God in time and space, or that he is also God in the Trinitarian way. It says ….I Jesus, have sent mine angels to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

Isa 11:1 Out of the stump of David's family will grow a shoot— yes, a new Branch bearing fruit from the old root. (With 1John1:1-5) Jesus is both offspring and Creator of david

AC,
When i think of Jesus i think of everything that God is. I have no problem calling Jesus Jehovah God for he holds all the titles as well. Rock, Creator, maker, Lord, God, and whatever you can think of. For the second you say, "No he doesnt", you just valued him less and do not honor them equaly.

It appears to me that your beliefs are more Oneness than Trinitarian.

Just so you know, they are close, but i believe Jesus and the Father, and the Holy Spirit exist at the same time and not just changing clothes or hats... I believe God can be in more than one place and in any form and do what ever he wants in any fashion, not putting limits upon him. The best Trinitarian analogy is the Universe itself. There is only One universe, but it is made up of All Space, All Time, and All Matter. The universe cannot exist without any one of the 3 in completeness.

Just as you can be mistaken for a JW, I believe Trinitarians could be mistaken for oneness. I remember talking to a 80 year old JW at my door back in the 90's. She told me that trinitarians think Jesus and the Father are the same person, but we do not. So unless you are deeply in understanding of ones belief, its hard to know exactly what we think. I assure you, that im not oneness penticostal. (although it is also hard to fully understand) My undertanding of oneness is that they believe that there is one God, a singular person who manifests himself in many different ways, including as Father, Son and holy Spirit. This stands in sharp contrast to the doctrine of three distinct and eternal persons posited by Trinitarians. This is the only main difference I know of and I do not think it is going to hurt them in the long run...

Concerning 1 Cor 10:1-4, again, Peter was also called a rock; it is what the name means, and doesn’t mean that he is God.)

AC,
Thats like saying the mexican next doors name is Jesus, therefore the Real Jesus means nothing.(MY OPPINION) Jesus is the reason not one of the reasons of the meaning. The context of 1 Cor 10:1-4 is pointing out that the Rock, who every JEW knew as God Almighty, that followed them, was Jesus. You cannot down play that, for Paul is very specific. He says, Dont be ignorant. What exactly does Paul not want people to be ignorant of?

Because God is eternal; and is not descended from a human being.)

AC,
After reading 1john1:1-5 who do you think is being talked about? Its Jesus in my understanding that is called the Word of Life & Everlasting life before becomming a man. The Word is Eternal and emptied himself and did become a man. Who do you think Jesus was before he became a man anyways?

When someone represents, it is usually of someone else. Why would one need to represent himself?

Only God could express himself fully and exactly as Jesus did. Jesus didnt just come down to tell us about God, he expressed him by his very being and is the image of the invissable God. Only God could fully do this in a human body.

I would not call Jesus, the Son of God, a body part, it just doesn’t feel right. It doesn’t seem like honoring him to me, he is not a mere body part. )

The Bible calls him the Head of us, so either way he is the head of the Christian Body. Anyways, my point isnt that Jesus is a body part, but he is part of the Body of God. To me, that is honoring him to the fullest.

As for the mighty god in Isaiah 9:6, one needs to keep in mind that in Hebrew, there were no capitalizing of letters, so it would have read as mighty god, not Mighty God. There is no reason to think that Jesus is being called Jehovah God here when we are called gods in Psalm 82:6…”

Ill never understand why anyone downplays Jesus when God is applied to him. If you look to Jesus and see a little god, then your image of God (who jesus is) has been watered down. Every part of the bible applies titles of God to Jesus. (not just 1 or 2 either, all of them) Even Jesus pointed to this passage in John 10 and said, if mere ones under the law were called gods, then how much more would the one set apart as the Fathers very own be worthy? The Jews knew the language and meaning poored into Jesus's words. They said back in John 5 that Jesus was equaling himself to God and wanted to stone him. Jesus was just out smarting them by saying if they can be called gods, then what about the Son of God? To say jesus is a god, like the gods that ruled the earth, is totaly under estimating Jesus to me. Jesus created those so called gods and is Jehovah God with the Father and Holy Spirit.

why should it mean that Jesus is then God in Isaiah 9-6

AC,
You need to look at the bible in whole. Everything that God is, Jesus is too. You can say Judges were called gods, but they fall very sort of God and his glory. Jesus however is the brightness of Gods glory, expressing God by his very being. Jesus is Creator, maker, rock, saviour, and the list goes on. Humans have messed up over and over agian when given the chance, thats why the Eternal Word, who is God, is the only one who could be perfect and fully expressing God in a human body. (Full Diety)

It has always been my understanding that Jehovah is that name of God the Father, and that Trinitarianism does not believe that Jesus is the Father, that is Oneness, and again, it seems to me that your beliefs are more Oneness than Trinitarian.

Before Jesus became a man, He too was Jehovah and with Jehovah. Read this story to see how I think of One Jehovah as Three

Gen 18:1 JEHOVAH appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day.
Gen 18:2 Abraham looked up and saw three men standing nearby. When he saw them, he hurried from the entrance of his tent to meet them and bowed low to the ground.

in Love,
Tom

 

[Slo_Motion_BC]

Hi Ice:

John 1:18, Jewish New Testament, No one has ever seen God.
Therefore people have only seen the ones that represent God like in Exodus 23:20,21.

John 6:44-46 (NIV).
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the Prophets: `They will all be taught by God.' Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me. No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father." John 6:44-46 (NIV).
******************************************************************************************
John 5:37,KJV,
37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
*****************************************************************************************
1 Timothy 6:15,16,NLT,
15 For at the right time Christ will be revealed from heaven by the blessed and only almighty God, the King of kings and Lord of lords.
16 He alone can never die, and he lives in light so brilliant that no human can approach him. No one has ever seen him, nor ever will. To him be honor and power forever. Amen.
********************************************************************************************
Exodus 33:20,KJV,
20………No man can see me and live.

 

[Jensen]

Hi Icebuddy,

I looked up a few things and still haven't changed my mind as to what I think the root and offspring of David means. I checked on Hebrews 1:3 and it does say he is the express image of his person (God) and that he upholds all things, but it also says he sat down on the right hand of the Majesty. There is nothing here that explains the meaning of Jesus being the root and offspring of David, or that Jesus is God.

I also looked up John 5:23 and it does speak of honoring the Son "even as" they honor the Father. I think that "even as" doesn't actually or necessarily mean "as the same," but that as we are to honor the One, we must honor the Other, that is to do both otherwise we are not honoring either. Nothing there saying it is to be actually the same, or as Jesus being God.

I honor Jesus for who the bible says he is...the Son of God, the risen Christ and Savior of repented man. And I honor the Father for who and what he is, God. The God of Jesus and the God of us. That is not dishonoring either of them.

Some seem to focus more attention on Jesus being God than on Jesus being the offspring of David, the root of David, which I still think means that he is the root (the Lord and savior of David) and the biological (offspring) descendant of David.

As for 1 John 1:1-5, I see here in verse 2 that it says "which was with the Father" and later in verse 3 it says "and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. This too isn't speaking of Jesus being the root and offspring of David, or what that means; but does show that they are not one and the same, one is the father, the other his son.

You may not have a problem calling Jesus, Jehovah, but I would, as although some of those titles are applied to Jesus, some are applied to others also, such as Nebuchadrezzar and Artaxerxes, as they are both called "King of Kings" and "Lord of lords" in the OT, and this does not make them God; or the judges or Moses, or us in Psalms 82:6. So why does it have to mean that Jesus IS God, when called any of these titles. I don't believe that it does when there are so many verses that call Jesus the Son of God and not one that says he is God the Son.

Matt 3:17 says, "This is my beloved Son..."
Mark 15:39 says, "Truly this man was the Son of God."
John 1:34 says"....the Son of God."
John 10:36 (Jesus is speaking here) "...I am the Son of God?"

Where in the bible does it say that only God could express himself fully and exactly? God does not need to be his own image. Jesus the Son is the express image of God, but that does not mean that he is God because he is the image of God. It means he is the image of God, just as it says. Also, we who do not believe that Jesus is God, are not downplaying him because we believe that he is who the bible, and God, say he is...the Son of God. Is God downplaying Jesus when he calls him the Son of God? I don't think so. I do not see Jesus as a little god, nor do I water him down. I honor him for who he really is, the Son of God, the Christ.

In John 10 he says..."..Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world,Thou blasphemest: because I said, I am the Son of God?" It (the verse) isn't saying that he is one of the three persons of God, but that he is the Son.

In John 5 they did say that he was equaling himself with God: they said that, he did not. In verse 25, he calls himself the Son of God,..."when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God:..." He corrected them.

These verses do not support that Jesus is God or Jehovah.

As Slo often posts, no one can see God or ever will, and uses scripture to back that up. Moses was told to turn his back so as not to see God, so why would God appear in person to Abraham. He didn't. His representatives, the three men, did. The bible verse here say that there were three men. Men are often messengers for God, as also Angels. But God can not be approached, which is also been shown by verses posted by Slo in the past, so there is no need for me to do so again.

I believe that Jehovah is the name of God the Father, that the Son of God the Father Jehovah, is Jesus, and the Holy Spirit is the active power of God. I believe that this is what the bible says. I do not feel that honoring God for who he is; and honoring Jesus for who he is, the Son of God, is dishonoring Jesus, or downplaying him, or watering him down.

In my next post I am going to give you some links that I think you should see as they express what I think better than I can myself, and express the unitarian view better than I probably do. It may be a bit before I have them on.

Jensen

 

[Jensen]

Hi Slo, it is good to see you on again replying. :yes:

I see as usual that you get to the point quicker and better than I do. Right to the point. Thanks for the verses.

Jensen/AC

 

[Jensen]

Hi Icebuddy,

harvestherald.com

biblicalunitarian.com

 

[Slo_Motion_BC]

(((( I see as usual that you get to the point quicker and better than I do. Right to the point. ))))

Hi Jensen:
Over the years I have learned much more from you than you have from me.
Respectfully,
Slo.

 

[Slo_Motion_BC]

Hi Jensen:
(((( I see as usual that you get to the point quicker and better than I do. Right to the point. Thanks for the verses. ))))

Over the years I have learned more from you than you have learned from me.

Slo.

 

[Jensen]

(((( I see as usual that you get to the point quicker and better than I do. Right to the point. ))))

Hi Jensen:
Over the years I have learned much more from you than you have from me.
Respectfully,
Slo.

Hi Slo, I'd be really surprised if this was so,but thanks anyway.

Jensen

 

[Jensen]

Hi Icebuddy and Slo,

I have given it some thought after looking into to it further, that Moses and the judges were more accurately called “mighty ones” than were called gods. Thought that I’d mention that.

Also, I should have mentioned that I’m not completely in agreement with everything said in the links that I posted for you . I do think they are excellent sites for unitarians.

Jensen/AC

 

[icebuddy]

John 1:18, Jewish New Testament, No one has ever seen God.
Therefore people have only seen the ones that represent God like in Exodus 23:20,21.

Slo,
I asume what you are trying to say is that since Jesus was seen, that he cannot be God. Howerver, Jesus vieled himself (Phil 2:6) & cannot be seen either in all his Glory. (Acts 9:3/ Rev 1:17/ Is 6:5) What People saw was what God wanted them to see as "His Image". Jesus isnt just some one representing God, He was the Image of God. Not one of many images, but "THE IMAGE" of God. To see Jesus was to see the Father for in Jesus all the fullness of God was housed by Flesh (Col 2:9)

John 6:44-46 (NIV).
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the Prophets: `They will all be taught by God.' Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me. No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father." John 6:44-46 (NIV).
******************************************************************************************

I have i few ideas for you to thhink about. First off when Jesus was born, he was called, Immanuel, or "God with us". What I find interesting is that Jesus is the one doing the teaching (MatT 4:23, 9:35, 21:23, 26:55) and the passage says they will be "Taught by God". As For seeing the Father, Jesus says no one Knows the son except the Father and vise versa (Luke 10:22, Mt 11:27) except who the son chooses to reveal. Jesus reveals himself to his disiples at John 14:7-9 as being the only Image of God. To see and know Jesus was to see and know the Father also. Jesus is everything that the Father is, for he is not just a represenative, he is The image of the invissable God (Col 1:15, 2 Cor 4:4) expressing the Father by his very existance. And if you only have one name to call upon, i would call upon Jesus. For if you have Jesus, you also have the Father! (1John 2:23)

out of time....

 

[icebuddy]

John 1:18, Jewish New Testament, No one has ever seen God.
Therefore people have only seen the ones that represent God like in Exodus 23:20,21.

Slo,
I asume what you are trying to say is that since Jesus was seen, that he cannot be God. Howerver, Jesus vieled himself (Phil 2:6) & cannot be seen either in all his Glory. (Acts 9:3/ Rev 1:17/ Is 6:5) What People saw was what God wanted them to see as "His Image". Jesus isnt just some one representing God, He was the Image of God. Not one of many images, but "THE IMAGE" of God. To see Jesus was to see the Father for in Jesus all the fullness of God was housed by Flesh (Col 2:9)

I have i few ideas for you to thhink about. First off when Jesus was born, he was called, Immanuel, or "God with us". What I find interesting is that Jesus is the one doing the teaching (MatT 4:23, 9:35, 21:23, 26:55) and the passage says they will be "Taught by God". As For seeing the Father, Jesus says no one Knows the son except the Father and vise versa (Luke 10:22, Mt 11:27) except who the son chooses to reveal. Jesus reveals himself to his disiples at John 14:7-9 as being the only Image of God. To see and know Jesus was to see and know the Father also. Jesus is everything that the Father is, for he is not just a represenative, he is The image of the invissable God (Col 1:15, 2 Cor 4:4) expressing the Father by his very existance. And if you only have one name to call upon, i would call upon Jesus. For if you have Jesus, you also have the Father! (1John 2:23)


In Love,
tom

 

[icebuddy]

There is nothing here that explains the meaning of Jesus being the root and offspring of David, or that Jesus is God.

AC,
You need to be carefull when saying "Jesus is not God". For this is where we all get confused. Isa 9:6 calls him "Mighty God", John 1:1 calls him "God", John 20:28 Thomas calls him "My God" and so on... So to say Jesus is not God, I must assume you mean Father or God Almighty or something like that...

I also looked up John 5:23 and it does speak of honoring the Son "even as" they honor the Father. I think that "even as" doesn't actually or necessarily mean "as the same,"

That could be a grave mistake. The JW's and alike have been unwilling to render Jesus their worship. i believe this is a big mistake.

I honor Jesus for who the bible says he is...the Son of God, the risen Christ and Savior of repented man. And I honor the Father for who and what he is, God. The God of Jesus and the God of us. That is not dishonoring either of them.

i agree that this is not wrong, but like most JW's, your view of Jesus is narrow, not exactly exploring who he was before he emptied himself and became human. My question would be this: If God has an Image for us to relate to, wouldnt you Worship that Image exactly how you would plan to worship God?

1Cr 10:1 For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea;
1Cr 10:2 and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
1Cr 10:3 and all ate the same spiritual food;
1Cr 10:4 and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ.

What doesnt Paul want the brothers to be aware of?

but does show that they are not one and the same, one is the father, the other his son.

Yes I agree, i am a Trinitarian not a Oneness Pent. Anyways the English word "And" looses some of the meanings in some peoples mind. Good Examples

1. Peace be with you, from Jehovah God and our Saviour.
2. Peace be with you, from God the Father and Lord Jesus our saviour.

in the OT to read Jehovah as God and Saviour is no problem. But when revealed to us through Jesus Christ we all disagree with eachother. The Greek word used for "and" is dia and is not a seperating word. Anyways, I think you see my point although you dont agree. (That line 2 is the fullfillment of line 1)

As for 1 John 1:1-5, I see here in verse 2 that it says "which was with the Father

AC,
John calls Jesus the "Etenal Life" that was with the Father. Yet every JW I have ever come across wants to say Jesus is a created being that had no eternal life until the Father gave it to him. i challage that because the Father only needed to give the eternal life "BACK" to Jesus because Jesus "EMPTIED HIMSELF" of the eternal life to become human. (Phil 2:5-8)

Phl 2:6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
Phl 2:7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.

You may not have a problem calling Jesus, Jehovah, but I would, as although some of those titles are applied to Jesus, some are applied to others also, such as Nebuchadrezzar and Artaxerxes, as they are both called "King of Kings" and "Lord of lords" in the OT, and this does not make them God;

AC,
The problem here is that you are using other people's titles to define Jesus's. Read this scripture

Jhn 5:39 " You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;
Jhn 5:40 and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.

The Whole Bible is pointing to Jesus not vise versa. If King David was called the "Firstborn of God" its because Jesus is the Firstborn of God. One cannot say Jesus isnt truely the Firstborn because david was also called Gods Firstborn... The same with others that were representing God. Jesus isnt just representing God, he is God and part of God. All the represenatives going aound with devine titles are all pointing to Jesus and prophesies of Jesus. Jesus fullfills these completely where they fell short in their human nature. The Image of God expressing God by his very existance. No one else can share in Gods glory but the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

In John 10 he says..."..Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world,Thou blasphemest: because I said, I am the Son of God?" It (the verse) isn't saying that he is one of the three persons of God, but that he is the Son.

It is clear in history that the term "SON OF" meant you where equal or of the same nature of that in whom you were son of. So if Jesus said he was "SON OF GOD" then he was saying What God is, I am. Jesus was also called the Son of Man, for he was truely a man too. What man is, Jesus also is.

Jhn 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

The JEWs knew their language better than us today, and they understood what Jesus was saying... This passage is part of Gods word and not some random expression from the JEWs. Take the words "SON OF MAN" for example. With your own understanding of the term, "SON OF GOD", then Jesus cannot be a man either. (because hes the Son of Man) The very term means what his nature is equal to. That is why you see trinitarians call Jesus the God Man, for he is both Son of Man and Son of God, equal in nature. But before becomming a man, he was God and with God.(no man)

As Slo often posts, no one can see God or ever will, and uses scripture to back that up.

unless Jesus reveals it to you!

Mat 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and [he] to whomsoever the Son will reveal [him].

Jhn 14:9 Jesus [!] said to him, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

AC,
Jesus is the Image of God. To see Jesus is to see God. Sometimes i wounder what a JW would say to Jesus at this point if in philips shoes?

Hbr 1:3 [fn]And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and [fn]upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

But God can not be approached, which is also been shown by verses posted by Slo in the past, so there is no need for me to do so again.

Niether Father or Son can be approached in all their Glory. They have in the past either veiled their glory or gave a special individual strength to not die.

Isa 6:5 Then I said, "Woe is me, for I am ruined! Because I am a man of unclean lips, And I live among a people of unclean lips; For my eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts."

Isaiah Saw Jehovah and we now know that Jesus is the Image of God. That Isaaih saw Jesus as Jehovah, the Image of God.

Jhn 12:38 This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet which he spoke: "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT? AND TO WHOM HAS THE ARM OF THE LORD BEEN REVEALED?"
Jhn 12:39 For this reason they could not believe, for Isaiah said again,
Jhn 12:40 "HE HAS BLINDED THEIR EYES AND HE HARDENED THEIR HEART, SO THAT THEY WOULD NOT SEE WITH THEIR EYES AND PERCEIVE WITH THEIR HEART, AND [fn]BE CONVERTED AND I HEAL THEM."
Jhn 12:41 These things Isaiah said because he saw His glory, and he spoke of Him.

Never does the bible say one can lift Jesus up too high or view him as God as wrong. What we do see however is this

2Cr 4:3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled [fn]to those who are perishing,
2Cr 4:4 in whose case the god of this [fn]world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving [fn]so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
2Cr 4:5 For we do not preach ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your bond-servants [fn]for Jesus' sake.
2Cr 4:6 For God, who said, "Light shall shine out of darkness," is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.

i will look at your links soon...

 

[icebuddy]

Hi Jensen:
(((( I see as usual that you get to the point quicker and better than I do. Right to the point. Thanks for the verses. ))))

Over the years I have learned more from you than you have learned from me.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dont forget to trust the Holy Spirit to guide you into all truth

 

[Jensen]

Hi Tom,

I don't know if you come here much, but the other site will not let me post. :sad4:I'm pretty much fed-up with that site, as too much of the time it isn't working.

Jensen:flower:


:camp:so cute!

 

[Jensen]

Hi Tom,

I tried again to post at the other site, and it will not allow me. Will try again in a couple days.

Jensen.