For those who live in a glass house

[Pah]

I've noticed a great deal of criticism of LDS scripture from other Christians and I wonder how it is justified. It can't be that "my scripture" (they say) is correct and and "your's" is wrong could it? I suspect that's what drove the "questions".

I propose to show that it is unjustified.

Why was Moses denied entry into Canaan?

Numbers 20

(10)He and Aaron gathered the assembly together in front of the rock and Moses said to them, "Listen, you rebels, must we bring you water out of this rock?" (11) Then Moses raised his arm and struck the rock twice with his staff. Water gushed out, and the community and their livestock drank.

(12) But the LORD said to Moses and Aaron, "Because you did not trust in me enough to honor me as holy in the sight of the Israelites, you will not bring this community into the land I give them."

NUmbers 27

(12) Then the LORD said to Moses, "Go up this mountain in the Abarim range and see the land I have given the Israelites. (13) After you have seen it, you too will be gathered to your people, as your brother Aaron was, (14) for when the community rebelled at the waters in the Desert of Zin, both of you disobeyed my command to honor me as holy before their eyes." (These were the waters of Meribah Kadesh, in the Desert of Zin.)

Deuteronomy 32

(49) "Go up into the Abarim Range to Mount Nebo in Moab, across from Jericho, and view Canaan, the land I am giving the Israelites as their own possession. (50) There on the mountain that you have climbed you will die and be gathered to your people, just as your brother Aaron died on Mount Hor and was gathered to his people. (51) This is because both of you broke faith with me in the presence of the Israelites at the waters of Meribah Kadesh in the Desert of Zin and because you did not uphold my holiness among the Israelites. (52) Therefore, you will see the land only from a distance; you will not enter the land I am giving to the people of Israel."

Seems clear that Moses and Aaron brought it on themselves.


Deuteronomy 1:1

These are the words Moses spoke to all Israel in the desert east of the Jordan

Deuteronomy 1

(34) When the LORD heard what you said, he was angry and solemnly swore: (35) "Not a man of this evil generation shall see the good land I swore to give your forefathers, (36) except Caleb son of Jephunneh. He will see it, and I will give him and his descendants the land he set his feet on, because he followed the LORD wholeheartedly."

(37) Because of you the LORD became angry with me also and said, "You shall not enter it, either.

Deuteronomy 3

(21) At that time I commanded Joshua: "You have seen with your own eyes all that the LORD your God has done to these two kings. The LORD will do the same to all the kingdoms over there where you are going. (22) Do not be afraid of them; the LORD your God himself will fight for you."

(23) At that time I pleaded with the LORD : (24) "O Sovereign LORD, you have begun to show to your servant your greatness and your strong hand. For what god is there in heaven or on earth who can do the deeds and mighty works you do? (25) Let me go over and see the good land beyond the Jordan—that fine hill country and Lebanon."

(26) But because of you the LORD was angry with me and would not listen to me. "That is enough," the LORD said. "Do not speak to me anymore about this matter. (27) Go up to the top of Pisgah and look west and north and south and east. Look at the land with your own eyes, since you are not going to cross this Jordan.

Deuteronomy 4

(21) The LORD was angry with me because of you, and he solemnly swore that I would not cross the Jordan and enter the good land the LORD your God is giving you as your inheritance. (22) I will die in this land; I will not cross the Jordan; but you are about to cross over and take possession of that good land.

Now it seems Moses's peoples were to blame.

Six verses - two explainations. The latter three quotes could just be Moses "shifting the blame".

 

[EnhancedSpirit]

Well done, Pah. It was rightous of you to level the field. LDS is often criticized because they are the 'new kids on the block' when it comes to religion. God can be found everywhere, and we must all take the boards out of our own eyes before we can take the thorn out of our neighbour's eye.

Remember that we are all here to learn and grow. Please leave all rocks in a basket out by the Hot Tube

 

[Ceridwen018]

I agree. Thats a nice piece of investigative work there, Pah!

 

[Pah]

I must confess, I just "prettied up" what is going around the internet - I just have some of the more intellectual sources.

 

[Scott1]

"prettied up" or not... well done Pah.... I must confess that I've found myself at times using the "mine vs yours" mentality.... glass house, indeed. Thanks Bob.

 

[johnnys4life]

I'm sorry but this makes no sense to me. How does this have anything to do with Mormon doctrine? Am I missing something here?

 

[Katzpur]

I'm sorry but this makes no sense to me. How does this have anything to do with Mormon doctrine? Am I missing something here?

I think Pah is justing pointing out that a lot of people are quick to criticize Latter-day Saint interpretation of the scriptures, but are more than willing to turn a blind eye to inconsistencies and apparent contradictions within the Bible. He's just saying that all religions ought to be held to the same standard.

Other examples are:

Matthew 28:1-5 says there was only only angel at Christ's tomb. Luke 24:4-5 says there were two angels at Christ's tomb.

Mark and Luke said that Jesus stayed with Peter in his house and later healed the leper, yet Matthew says the opposite, that Christ first healed the leper.

Genesis 6:6 says that God repented. Numbers 23:19 says that GOd does not repent.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I've noticed a great deal of criticism of LDS scripture from other Christians and I wonder how it is justified.

Perhaps, then, you should reference the criticisms and show them unjustified. Otherwise the point seems little more than implied ad hominem.

 

[BUDDY]

Pah, Moses was judged unworthy by God because of his sin and failure to follow God's command at the rock. Moses, being human, blames the people who where pestering him and complaining about the situation, for his frustration, his anger and ultimately his sin. Human nature many times is to blame others for your mistakes.

As far as the LDS scripture is concerned, I personally do not believe the story. I have studied it with friends, studied it on my own, and have done some research and from what I have learned, I personally can not accept the story of the lost tribe and subsequent visit to them by Christ, as told in the book of mormon. So, what is wrong with that? I am not following your position. Do you mean that unless I can thoroughly explain all the "inconsistencies" that you think there are in the Bible, that therefore I am hyposritical to have a non-belieing opinion of anything that someone else deems to be holy scripture? Plese explain.

I'll check for your answer later. Right now there is a guy named Bob outside with a pamphlet that says all I need to do is buy a boat, make a mud pie and go streaking with him to go to heaven. He has a pamphlet and a great story so it must be true.

 

[Katzpur]

Right now there is a guy named Bob outside with a pamphlet that says all I need to do is buy a boat, make a mud pie and go streaking with him to go to heaven. He has a pamphlet and a great story so it must be true.

Glad to hear his name is "Bob" and not "Elder."

 

[Quoth The Raven]

I'll check for your answer later. Right now there is a guy named Bob outside with a pamphlet that says all I need to do is buy a boat, make a mud pie and go streaking with him to go to heaven. He has a pamphlet and a great story so it must be true.

My husband is a shoe in for heaven then...he's already got two boats...all he needs now are some mud pies and naked jogging.:bounce

 

[Pah]

Pah, Moses was judged unworthy by God because of his sin and failure to follow God's command at the rock. Moses, being human, blames the people who where pestering him and complaining about the situation, for his frustration, his anger and ultimately his sin. Human nature many times is to blame others for your mistakes.

So let's see if I have this correct. Moses didn't get to go to Canaan because he sinned against God by not organizing a worship-type gathering for God? And then Moses lied about it? Wouldn't you think that the lying of Moses would be punished more severely? What happened to Moses for the lying? Where else did he lie? Can you believe anything Moses said when he tells his people what God said? Why did it take three repetitions of each story? What was the point of that? Doesn't that go to the "inspiration of God" in writing the account?

I just ask to clear up the confusion.

Ya see, I too have read a bit about the bible and I have these questions that go to the credibility of the Bible. Tell me, was this "Canaan incident" before or after Moses brought down the tablets that specified not giving false witness. You know the ones that Moses broke when he saw the golden idol and then had to re-write them, most likely without God's help (I think that's in the telling of the second tablets). If I'm not mistaken, that false witness thing carried over into the second set.

Pah, the non-streaking Bob

Personally, I don't care about the questions and what your answers are. Not that I'm Atheist but because if you have no trouble with them who am I to challange them. That's the lesson of this thread and that's the point (told negatively I admit) of having respect for another's faith at RF. There is always someone who will try to injure your faith but at RF we try to minimalize that. We don't always succeede but it is our goal.

Bob, who is sometimes Pah.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

That's the lesson of this thread and that's the point (told negatively I admit) of having respect for another's faith at RF. There is always someone who will try to injure your faith but at RF we try to minimalize that. We don't always succeede but it is our goal.

To the extent that this thread leverages the NWT discussion it seriously distorts that discussion.

Catholics believe in the Trinity. The authors of the NWT do not. At issue, however, was not whether one belief was more worthy of respect than the other. At issue was the scholarship and intellectual honesty of the NWT translation. If you claim those issues to be inappropriate, then that claim should be argued on its own merit - though I would recommend against it.

 

[EnhancedSpirit]

We must understand that all the words of the Bible and all other sacred books appear to be words associated with our world.

The words however represent spiritual objects and roots, which are under no circumstances connected to our world. There is confusion because we don't know how to separate these spiritual concepts and physical objects.

The Torah contains the sacred names of the Creator, which represents the degrees of His attainment. This is similar to how we designate a name to an object in our world depending on how the object manifests itself to our senses. The entire Torah describes the levels of approaching and sensing the Creator.

I believe the older religions all dealt with teaching one how to approach and attain a connection with the Source. The Buddhists, Hindus, and Jews all teach about meditation and fasting, and doing things that teach them to let go of their fear and submit to the Source.

The newer religions, deal with what to do with that connection. How to use our special gifts. How to walk with the Holy Spirit. Jesus taught us what to do with the gifts that God has bestowed upon us all. God did not play favorites. We are all God's children, and we all have something to contribute to the family.

 

[BUDDY]

Personally, I don't care about the questions and what your answers are. Not that I'm Atheist but because if you have no trouble with them who am I to challange them. That's the lesson of this thread and that's the point (told negatively I admit) of having respect for another's faith at RF. There is always someone who will try to injure your faith but at RF we try to minimalize that. We don't always succeede but it is our goal.

Bob, who is sometimes Pah.

Excellent post, Pah. I think you make a great point, and I respect your thoughts and opinions. In the case of Moses, we could go on and on about the particular subject matter, but that wouldn't help answer the underlying issue that you bring up. So, let me just say this. There are things in the Bible that I have struggled with. I work them out. I don't have a problem with it. As I have said before, I can not convince someone that God is real, if that person does not want to be convinced. I have to respect their desire to live their life their way, and then move on. In the end, I think that you will find that most people believe what they believe because they want to. My desire to believe in the God of the Bible makes me work hard sometimes to find balance and sensability in His word. I believe in God because I want to.

 

[jonny]

. It can't be that "my scripture" (they say) is correct and and "your's" is wrong could it?

I think that this is exactly what it is about. The Bible and Book of Mormon fundamentally teach the same gospel, but they tell a different story. If they didn't teach the same gospel, it would be impossible to believe in both of them. People interpret scripture differently - the 1,000s of different Christian denomonations are a testament to this.

Honestly though, I think a lot of Mormons bring the critisizm upon themselves. If you go out looking to start a fight over whether or not the Book of Mormon is true scripture you're gonna find one - and you're not going to convince anyone who already has an opinion on the matter.