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For those who do not accept the Bible as the infallible Word of God...

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by dawny0826, Feb 2, 2006.

  1. anders

    anders Well-Known Member

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    Once upon a time, not that many years ago, I believed in principle that the Bible was the true words of God. Being a Swede, and going for a degree in science, I wasn't a fundamentalist, though, but interpreted things like the creation stories, the Flood, the parting of the Reed Sea etc. as metaphors.

    In my early fifties I tried religious studies at our uni. When trying to read the Bible in an unbiased way, I soon understood that it's all myth and no proof. Not only have I rejected the Bible as an authority on anything, but I also don't recognize any kind of divine being any more. Approach anyone anywhere here and don't reveal that you refer to the Bible, and ask them if they believe that people can rise from their graves, or that the sun once stood still for several hours, or that there once was a global flood. You would have to work very hard to find a Swede subscribing to those things. Exclude JW's, and I'd bet you any money that you won't find even one.
     
  2. dawny0826

    dawny0826 Mother Heathen

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    What is your interpretation of the scripture, I posted?
     
  3. Quiddity

    Quiddity UndertheInfluenceofGiants

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    How did you manage to do this?
     
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  4. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    You've done this before, haven't you? I consistently like your posts. Thanks for the revisions!
     
  5. MdmSzdWhtGuy

    MdmSzdWhtGuy Well-Known Member

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    Except for the Swede part, and the age (early 50's) you are basically telling my story.

    B.
     
  6. Ody

    Ody Well-Known Member

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    Wow i can't believe g-d would go all out in rage against people who follow the natural law but do not believe in him :bounce That would make g-d a sufferer of a real BASE emotion wouldn't it? I always thought he was above human constraints such as pride :p After all g-d is into his work for the publicity :)
     
  7. wmam

    wmam Active Member

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    He is saying that not all that say they know Him and claim that they have done all that is required of them will be allowed to pass through the gate. Simply, knowing Yahshua isn't enough. There must be more to it than just lip service. I offer that not just the hearers of the law but the doer's. For if you had believed Mose's then you would have believed Yahshua: For Moses wrote of Him.
     
  8. MdmSzdWhtGuy

    MdmSzdWhtGuy Well-Known Member

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    And exactly why are we to think the Torah is any more likely to be the word of God than any other religious text?

    B.
     
  9. St0ne

    St0ne Active Member

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    But Hitler accepted Jesus into his heart didn't he? lets just say hypothetically he did accept jesus' forgiveness, doesn't that mean he is in heaven right now? I've been told many a time here that there is no sin that can not be forgiven. So long as hitler recieved that forgiveness his is now in heaven is he not?
     
  10. St0ne

    St0ne Active Member

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    why would the bible not be completely litteral, why does it need metaphorical messages?
     
  11. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    The Bible never claims to be infallible, perfect or literal. It's a blog of man's relationship to God.

    In this passage we have God (in Jesus) telling us that not everyone who CLAIMS to be going to heaven will be. I agree! God is love. If you aren't about love then you are not about God. Jesus cleared this up a bit here:

    Matthew 25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

    44 "They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

    45 "He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.' 46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." NIV

    These people were not forced into hell, but freely chose it by their selfishness and hardheartedness. What are YOU willing to sacrifice for others? In other words, how do YOU spell "LOVE"?
     
  12. Searcher of Light

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    I agree with everyone who believes Scripture is a product of the times and is not infallible.

    For instance, the sections of the gospels concerning Pontius Pilate are purely fabrication with the motive to reduce Roman persecution on the early Christians. People who know of him or knew him directly wrote about his life, and their writings just do not match up to the Gospel accounts. Vespasian (if i remember him as the right emperor), Philo of Alexandria, and Josephus all wrote about Pilate. There are other aspects of the account that just do not work with the history and cultural practices we have records of.

    This and the many other inconsistencies only deepen the cultural contextual readings we should all do in my eyes. Applying what the Scripture says to today is ok, but deeper meanings can be found by reading as close as possible to how the audience Scripture was originally written would have read it.

    These inventions in know way belittle the message within the Scripture. In my opinion, it accentuates the message as human and as requiring deep study.
     
  13. ashai

    ashai Active Member

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    Ushta Dawny

    Well I do not hold the Bible as inerrant or the word of God I believe that some passages might carry inspiration, but over all, I look at Bible themes and doctrines to evaluate them and not at indiidual passages. I do love the poetry of some parts of the Bible

    Ushta Te
    Ashai
     
  14. No*s

    No*s Captain Obvious

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    Dawny, it depends on what someone means by "infallible." Not all its scientific statements, for instance, are correct (the mustard seed is not the smallest seed), and some books in the traditional Christian Bible (that is, the Orthodox and Roman Catholic Bible) are certainly not historical at all (Judith). It is not always even the record of God's activities among men, as some pundits claim: how could books like the Psalms, Song of Solomon, or the Wisdom of Solomon be a record of any sort? They simply aren't records.

    Infallible, for me, refers to what it is. It is the merging of God and man. God's Spirit moved in people and "divinized" them. Their union with God gave them insights, and they recorded those (Scripture, while the highest, isn't the sole divine-human literature). This divine-human literature is both fully human and fully divine in its origins, and so, tends to reflect that. It can be a hard thing to understand in some passages for me :).

    Now, on to the passage quoted, it means that very few will achieve salvation here. Some people outside the Church which Christ founded will find their way (after all, no man can call Christ Lord save by the Spirit), but salvation is difficult even within the Church. Some people will fail because of a lack of compassion, despite working miracles, even Christian miracles. These people had faith (Mt. 25). Others will be cast out, because they have not received the sacramental grace God granted only to the Church, His Body: in John 6.54, Jesus states that none will inherit eternal life without partaking in the Eucharist.

    Salvation isn't simply a matter of sincerity, but of transformation, and we must use the tools God provided (it would be easy if we didn't have freewill and/or it was simply a matter of forgiveness). Because of this, salvation is difficult. Paul admonished us to "work out our salvation with fear and trembling" and to "take heed, lest we fall." The narrow gate is difficult :).

    Obviously, this is both literal and figurative. The passage is a metaphor: there is no literal "gate" into heaven we can swing open, nor a pathway. To interpret it absolutely literally requires that. However, I do take the intent of the passage literally: Salvation is difficult, and few will find it here. So, I take it both literally and metaphorically.
     
  15. muichimotsu

    muichimotsu Holding All and None

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    To follow up to that prolific post (lol) I will simply say the same relatively postmodernist ideas that were stated. Every person has different experiences and ways of defining the world and thusly there will always be those that say the Bible is perfect and can never be proven wrong, and there are those that insist that the four Gospels of canon differ very much in how each author portrayed Jesus' "life story" and that the Gnostic Gospels were excluded by the councils that put the bible together merely because those people's ideals of Jesus didn't agree with the ideas in those particular gospels, among other human specifications that limited the bible's potential fullness today. To conclude, the Bible is but one of many religious/historical texts that is probably missing texts or books that have been lost to time and decay and we can only try our hardest to learn from what we have at present.
     
  16. PureX

    PureX Veteran Member

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    There is a difference between "truth" and "fact". I think the bible is fundamentally truthful, but is not especially factual. The stories in the bible are intended to convey one culture's idea of God, from generation to generation. It doesn't matter if the stories are factual or not. What matters is that they convey some essential ideals that human beings have found useful and valuable back then and throughout the centuries since.

    Did a man named Jesus really exist? I don't know. But it doesn't really matter to me, because the message that the story of Jesus' life and death convey to me are real. I know this because I have experience, personality, the reality of divine love and forgiveness. I have met "Jesus" in the hearts and minds and faces of lots of people who are alive and well even at this moment. And if I were to meet you, I feel sure that I could see Jesus' face in you as well.

    The bible isn't about what happened long ago and far away. It's about what's happening here and now in your life and in mine. The Pharisees are among us, and sometimes they ARE us. Pilot is among us, and sometimes we ARE HIM. Thomas is among us. The Egyptian Pharaoh is among us. Adam and Eve are among us. Cain and Abel are among us. We ARE them, and they're in all of us, too.

    And so is Jesus. So is Christ. Just as Jesus forgave those who persecuted him, so can you and I. And just as Jesus sacrificed himself for the sake of that love, so can we, if it comes to that. But fortunately, for most of us, it will not come to that. We won't be asked to literally be tortured to death for the sake of that love and forgiveness. But we are being asked to follow the path of love and forgiveness in our hearts, minds and actions toward others, even when other people assault us and try to harm us when they're lost in their fear and greed and selfishness.

    To me, the bible is very real, and very true, even though the stories may or may not be literal or factual. The truth is that love and forgiveness heal us and save us from ourselves, no matter what the facts are. The facts of various times and places are always changing. The healing truth of God's love and forgiveness have never changed.
     
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  17. Ibrahim Al-Amin

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    I interpret this verse to mean that God turns his back on those who turn away from Him. How do you interpret the meaning of this verse, dawny?
     
  18. TheTruthWillSetUFree

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    Thats what it says.Pick up your cross and follow Me.If your of the this World your not of Christ.Simple.Narrow is the gate.Many shall not find it.Look at this world today.Case Closed
     
  19. Super Universe

    Super Universe Defender of God

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    Case open.

    God did not write the bible, humans did. And like it or not they put some pretty preposterous things in there. Exodus 30:11 "Pay a ransom to the Lord." It's not too difficult to realize this sentence was written in by a priest who desired money.

    The truth is easier found within than from a bible. Do you think God only speaks to us through a book?

    Get away from all electrical devices for a few hours and take a long walk through a garden or go into the forrest. Don't you know that God is there, in His showroom?

    Church is for man to praise himself, "Look at me God! See! I believe in you! I'm in church!" all the while waiting for the rewards, lottery money, and new SUV's, to just come rolling in.


     
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  20. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    Super Universe...

    I agreed with all but your last statement. :D
     
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