Master Vigil
Well-Known Member
NetDoc, the bible talks about the holy spirit. Saying the bible is a sign of the holy spirit because the bible says so doesn't work. What are these other signs, and are they tangible, valid, and true evidence?
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For those of you looking for absolute proof that God exists....
- Thread starter Geoman076
- Start date
M
Majikthise
Guest
I question your motives for asking this ,but I will answer.I have never owned a computer and we got one for christmas(mainly because my 8 year old complained that all the other kids have them.One night I just entered "atheist" in google search.I looked at a few sites but the people in them seemed like extremist religion haters.I found RF's atheist forum and found inteligent discussion instead of religoin bashing.I tried out the site and found many level headed thinking people on both sides.I LIKE IT HERE!!!Dr. Khan said:
OTE=Master Vigil]NetDoc, the bible talks about the holy spirit. Saying the bible is a sign of the holy spirit because the bible says so doesn't work. What are these other signs, and are they tangible, valid, and true evidence?[/QUOTE]
They are to me.I'm convinced by many, many experiences with the Holy One of Isreal.
I am the seed of Abraham by Jesus and the proof is in my everyday living.:woohoo: Jesus explains to me in John 14-16 the works of the Holy Spirit, I observe and do my part. And so does He. What more do you want. My testimony is enough. For that's all that's required. What I have told you is the truth. The truth shall set you free. The truth is all that required.
The preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness but to us which afe saved it is the power of God. The power of God in us is to be your evidence. My faith is that God himself will convince you this will be your proof.
You have told me your manny obstacles and my faith is positioned that inspite of these :banghead3 you might believe it is the only way I know how to deal with one with many hang ups about God.
They are to me.I'm convinced by many, many experiences with the Holy One of Isreal.
I am the seed of Abraham by Jesus and the proof is in my everyday living.:woohoo: Jesus explains to me in John 14-16 the works of the Holy Spirit, I observe and do my part. And so does He. What more do you want. My testimony is enough. For that's all that's required. What I have told you is the truth. The truth shall set you free. The truth is all that required.
The preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness but to us which afe saved it is the power of God. The power of God in us is to be your evidence. My faith is that God himself will convince you this will be your proof.
You have told me your manny obstacles and my faith is positioned that inspite of these :banghead3 you might believe it is the only way I know how to deal with one with many hang ups about God.
Majikthise said:I question your motives for asking this ,but I will answer.I have never owned a computer and we got one for christmas(mainly because my 8 year old complained that all the other kids have them.One night I just entered "atheist" in google search.I looked at a few sites but the people in them seemed like extremist religion haters.I found RF's atheist forum and found inteligent discussion instead of religoin bashing.I tried out the site and found many level headed thinking people on both sides.I LIKE IT HERE!!!
I'm glad for you, I like it here too. The reason why I asked you was that you might ask yourself that question.
People who experience the Holy Spirit and then reject him have some serious offence in their life to overcome. While those who find him refreshing are overjoyed and happy to know that the bible is really true. Because paridise to that point is just imaginary; But Jesus gives us a fortaste of that place so that we should labor to the end knowing that he is faithful that promised.
Master Vigil
Well-Known Member
No, your testimony is not enough. I can tell you right now that I am eating soup with a dragon. Is my testimony enough? Your testimony is opinion, that is the only truth to it.Dr. Khan said:
They are to me.I'm convinced by many, many experiences with the Holy One of Isreal.
I am the seed of Abraham by Jesus and the proof is in my everyday living.:woohoo: Jesus explains to me in John 14-16 the works of the Holy Spirit, I observe and do my part. And so does He. What more do you want. My testimony is enough. For that's all that's required. What I have told you is the truth. The truth shall set you free. The truth is all that required.
This makes no sense at all. Perhaps you should reword it.Dr. Khan said:
But you haven't even proven god exists yet, so how can the power of something that probably doesn't exist, be any evidence at all? Your faith is your faith, but still not evidence. You have only proven to me that you believe, but you haven't proven to me that what you believe is true.Dr. Khan said:
Your faith only proves to me that you believe in something unevidenced, and completely unproveable. I didn't ask you to prove to me that your life is better because you believe, or that your life is fulfilled because you believe. I asked you to prove that what you believe exists. You have not, and I would venture to say cannot prove this.Dr. Khan said:
My faith proves to you that I believe? If my faith exists as you say then it is enough; for God is in my faith.Master Vigil said:
Speaking of faith did you know that the bible says ,"now faith is the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen." "Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God so that the things which are seen were not made by that which do not appear."
so though you can't see it my faith is already working in you for I witnessed that you acknowledge that my faith proves to you that I believe. Now What I believe is that my word is working in you. You see when we work with God He makes our words work for us. Jesus came to give man the oppurtunity to live and operate as a god in the earth.
Just practicing, my freind, just practicing. And I believe that you will have a change in your life which will make you happy and that you will have all the proof that you want.
Master Vigil
Well-Known Member
Oy...:banghead3 That is the first time I have ever used that smiley. So that should say something. I asked you to prove that the bible is true. I asked you to prove that god exists. I asked you to prove that the holy spirit exists. YOU HAVE NOT DONE THIS!!!!!!Dr. Khan said:
You say your faith proves that god exists because your faith is of god. Please... Faith in invisible pink unicorns does not prove that invisible pink unicorns exist. Faith that santa clause exists, does not prove that santa clause exists. Try again, with reason this time.
Faith is the belief in something un-proven, and un-evidenced. Faith is not proof for ANYTHING except blindness and lack of reason. I acknowledge that you believe blindly in something that doesn't exist. This does not prove that what you believe in.. Exists!!!!!!
Oh, and I am very happy by the way. I am living with, working with, and teaching about the spirits and couldn't be any happier. I once believed as you did, but once I actually started working with the spirits, and getting "in the loop." I actually started to learn about the spirit world, and what actually happens. And that my friend, is why I don't believe in your belief.
The Voice of Reason
Doctor of Thinkology
Frubalicious, Master Vigil, frubalicious. I have to spread 'em around some, but I really liked this post.
TVOR
TVOR
Scuba Pete
Le plongeur avec attitude...
I am glad that I don't have YOUR faith then. My faith is proven to me all the time, and the evidence is overwhelming. Like most with negligible faith, you seem to discount that which you do not see or for which you have interpreted the evidences in a different manner. You "call" it blind faith, for you are indeed blind to the evidence that supports it.MV said:
You can't see ultra-violet light, but do you discount it's existence? You can't see electricity, but I bet that you believe it's there. You can't measure electricity with a light meter, and niether can you measure ultra-violet light with a Volt meter. These are physically disimilar. In the same way, those who try to measure the spiritual with a device designed to delineate logic are doomed to failure. Only when you open your heart to the spiritual world that is around you can you truly see the light.
Master Vigil
Well-Known Member
NetDoc, just because its proven to you, doesn't make it true. It isn't proveable to other people. I believe spirits exist, but I cannot prove to you that they do. Just because I believe in them, smell them, and feel them, doesn't necessitate that they exist.
We do however have technology that detects UV light, and electricity. There is no technology that detects god. Schizophrenics hallucinate, do you believe their hallucinations are real? There is no proof that the bible was written by god, except for the bible, and people who believe it was. That is not proof. I feel its a big cop-out when people say, "if your heart isn't open, you won't see the truth." Thats just as superfluous as people being "out of the loop."
The problem is, when people try to claim they have absolute proof. God is not meant to be proven to exist, neither are spirits. It isn't important. That is why it is impossible to prove AND disprove that god exists. But thats just my opinion.
We do however have technology that detects UV light, and electricity. There is no technology that detects god. Schizophrenics hallucinate, do you believe their hallucinations are real? There is no proof that the bible was written by god, except for the bible, and people who believe it was. That is not proof. I feel its a big cop-out when people say, "if your heart isn't open, you won't see the truth." Thats just as superfluous as people being "out of the loop."
The problem is, when people try to claim they have absolute proof. God is not meant to be proven to exist, neither are spirits. It isn't important. That is why it is impossible to prove AND disprove that god exists. But thats just my opinion.
Faust
Active Member
I'm still having problems with God not being allowed to do something.Geoman076 said:
That suggests a higher power than God.
Whats up with that? Isn't that contrary to everything that adherents of the Abrahamic religions base their beliefs on?
What power or authority is above God in your belief system?
Faust.
Faust
Active Member
Hi Limbo,
Good thought there, but I'm afraid that for the sake of debate, I can only pursue this proposition as it was posited.
As stated, God is not allowed, not God is unwilling. These are two totally different propositions implying drastically different concepts.
If God is not allowed, or otherwise limited, we may be approaching this issue from a point of view other than what might be considered "main stream" Christianity, such as Gnosticism, and I am seeking a clarification on this matter from Geoman076 or anyone else who might be of the same opinion that God is not allowed.
You must forgive me as I am often not clear enough when posting. I try to be short and concise because I tend to rattle on and become rather boorish. Like now.
Great to hear from you though!
Faust.
Good thought there, but I'm afraid that for the sake of debate, I can only pursue this proposition as it was posited.
As stated, God is not allowed, not God is unwilling. These are two totally different propositions implying drastically different concepts.
If God is not allowed, or otherwise limited, we may be approaching this issue from a point of view other than what might be considered "main stream" Christianity, such as Gnosticism, and I am seeking a clarification on this matter from Geoman076 or anyone else who might be of the same opinion that God is not allowed.
You must forgive me as I am often not clear enough when posting. I try to be short and concise because I tend to rattle on and become rather boorish. Like now.
Great to hear from you though!
Faust.
Muslims believe in their hearts that Islam is true, Baha'is that Baha'i is. Catholics that Catholicism is.
Doesn't this make you question the accuracy of the detection equipment?
If an omnipotent God were so concerned that people get it right he could bellow forth his wishes from the heavens and clear everything up once and for all.
Doesn't this make you question the accuracy of the detection equipment?
If an omnipotent God were so concerned that people get it right he could bellow forth his wishes from the heavens and clear everything up once and for all.
Faust
Active Member
I'm more suspect of the method or process employed by the equipment.Seyorni said:
I will agree though that the equipment has given ample reason to question it's accuracy in every aspect of existence.
However, if an omnipotent God is not concerned that people get it right, I'm afraid that in my opinion, that reduces man to something on the order of a "toy".
No offense intended by that statement. I'm just being as honest as I can about my interpretation of this line of thought.
I hope you will take it as a matter of personal opinion and not an attack.
Faust.
...that reduces man to something on the order of a "toy"
Christianity teaches that man is a crop or a species of livestock -- the Bible makes this analogy in several places. We grow and God harvests us, then culls the spiritually defective. What use He then makes of us is open to speculation.
As farmers are not entirely upfront with their cattle as to their role and purpose, and could be accused of a certain amount of deception en route to the abattoir, perhaps we should be a little suspicious of God's promises in re: our heavenly rewards for good behavior.
Christianity teaches that man is a crop or a species of livestock -- the Bible makes this analogy in several places. We grow and God harvests us, then culls the spiritually defective. What use He then makes of us is open to speculation.
As farmers are not entirely upfront with their cattle as to their role and purpose, and could be accused of a certain amount of deception en route to the abattoir, perhaps we should be a little suspicious of God's promises in re: our heavenly rewards for good behavior.
M
Majikthise
Guest
God found it important to display his power by destroying Sodom and Gamora, flooding the entire world,making the image of jesus in a stain on a wall that many came to see,and making a statue weep blood.He is given credit on a daily basis for curing people of diseases and any other number of physical and mental ailments.
So why couldn't he have clogged the fuel lines on a couple of aircraft before they took off to crash into buildings or send a couple of extra millivolts through a missle guidance circuit board and send it into the sea intead of the side of a ship?Why couldn't John Salvi's guns have jammed?Why wouldn't he send a divine message to his pope to do something about this annoying child molestation thing?
Because he doesn't exsist.He's our own invention,just as satan is.
So why couldn't he have clogged the fuel lines on a couple of aircraft before they took off to crash into buildings or send a couple of extra millivolts through a missle guidance circuit board and send it into the sea intead of the side of a ship?Why couldn't John Salvi's guns have jammed?Why wouldn't he send a divine message to his pope to do something about this annoying child molestation thing?
Because he doesn't exsist.He's our own invention,just as satan is.
I see a common and most repetitive question that many seem to be asking in response to Dr Khan's postings and/or position, "where's the proof of God"?
To prove God I will not quote the bible to someone who denies and questions the existence, nature and concept of God and as to whether or not He be, 1) a loving,forgiving and merciful God ,in which many inherently and vehemently chose to only picture God as.
That concept seems like a perfect breeding ground for self righteousness ( setting their own standard), saying in their minds God is love he won't punish us, on the contrary he will justify and excuse certain carefree and liberal lifestyle habits and choices we make, by forgiving and loving us.
2) a God of wrath, vengence and retribution which many deny such a God could exist who apparently is suppose to be all loving, forgiving God, how can he be both.
The mind set that follows states, no absolutes, no right or wrong, ammoral living and the belief that everything is relative, as long as it is good for you,until of course some horrific event takes place to a loved one,eg: rape,murder,theft,then we seem to immediately admit to ourselves we want justice ,there must be punishment and penalties for such crimes.
Yet we think God is not going to punish crimes that have been committed against Him,our conscience tells us what those will be,but we think our refusing to believe in God will exonerate us.
Man will not ever find God thru the pursuit of knowledge, but will find knowledge and understanding thru the pursuit of God
If one can remove the very essence of God which is justice,holiness, righteousness and judgement through the intellectual reasoning by denying, speculating and rationalizing thru logic and arguement, man can feel somewhat excused and relieved from any accountability and future punishment or consequences of violating those inherent laws upon every man's conscience.
There will never be enough proof to anyone that God exists, even if he says in Rom 1 .."just from what is created ,Man will be without excuse", it all means nothing to those who are ignorant (lacking knowledge), Unless you come to God in faith believe we have sinned against him, the exprience will not happen and unforgiveness will remain the pursuit of proof will continue
Evidence is all around us, if we chose to look,of something greater then ourselves created nature the human eye,brain,heart,the ear,etc, Look to the wind,electricity you don't see it, but it's effect
The mysteries of who God is,and what he has done for us and how to recieve it can only be understood by believing,recieving Jesus and working out your salvation thru obedience to his word
The existence of God is like anything in life,it must be experienced,how do you experience anything ,2 ways 1) you must have strong belief in something without proof( webster's = Faith)
rely on,trust in, believe it, enough to act on it.
2) you must do something,move towards, act upon that belief, work,effort
Apply this to any thing ,drive a car you have to first trust,believe ,and have faith in the breaks,mechanics, manufacturer etc without seeing them,but will you examine every wheel,likely not, this faith gives you the confidence to drive, Try that at a restaurant when they bring the food.I want proof. At the store when you make a purcahse,
God wills to and longs to reveal himself to those who seek him, with pure heart and motives, for they will be weighed and that determines whether you experience God.
Many say they have met ,walked with, knew him once, well if you truly did you would never be the same again and most assuredly never refute his existence, or turn away.
There are many false spirits out there which mask them selves as angels of light ,they will be exposed ,my question some, is which spirit do you have.
To prove God I will not quote the bible to someone who denies and questions the existence, nature and concept of God and as to whether or not He be, 1) a loving,forgiving and merciful God ,in which many inherently and vehemently chose to only picture God as.
That concept seems like a perfect breeding ground for self righteousness ( setting their own standard), saying in their minds God is love he won't punish us, on the contrary he will justify and excuse certain carefree and liberal lifestyle habits and choices we make, by forgiving and loving us.
2) a God of wrath, vengence and retribution which many deny such a God could exist who apparently is suppose to be all loving, forgiving God, how can he be both.
The mind set that follows states, no absolutes, no right or wrong, ammoral living and the belief that everything is relative, as long as it is good for you,until of course some horrific event takes place to a loved one,eg: rape,murder,theft,then we seem to immediately admit to ourselves we want justice ,there must be punishment and penalties for such crimes.
Yet we think God is not going to punish crimes that have been committed against Him,our conscience tells us what those will be,but we think our refusing to believe in God will exonerate us.
Man will not ever find God thru the pursuit of knowledge, but will find knowledge and understanding thru the pursuit of God
If one can remove the very essence of God which is justice,holiness, righteousness and judgement through the intellectual reasoning by denying, speculating and rationalizing thru logic and arguement, man can feel somewhat excused and relieved from any accountability and future punishment or consequences of violating those inherent laws upon every man's conscience.
There will never be enough proof to anyone that God exists, even if he says in Rom 1 .."just from what is created ,Man will be without excuse", it all means nothing to those who are ignorant (lacking knowledge), Unless you come to God in faith believe we have sinned against him, the exprience will not happen and unforgiveness will remain the pursuit of proof will continue
Evidence is all around us, if we chose to look,of something greater then ourselves created nature the human eye,brain,heart,the ear,etc, Look to the wind,electricity you don't see it, but it's effect
The mysteries of who God is,and what he has done for us and how to recieve it can only be understood by believing,recieving Jesus and working out your salvation thru obedience to his word
The existence of God is like anything in life,it must be experienced,how do you experience anything ,2 ways 1) you must have strong belief in something without proof( webster's = Faith)
rely on,trust in, believe it, enough to act on it.
2) you must do something,move towards, act upon that belief, work,effort
Apply this to any thing ,drive a car you have to first trust,believe ,and have faith in the breaks,mechanics, manufacturer etc without seeing them,but will you examine every wheel,likely not, this faith gives you the confidence to drive, Try that at a restaurant when they bring the food.I want proof. At the store when you make a purcahse,
God wills to and longs to reveal himself to those who seek him, with pure heart and motives, for they will be weighed and that determines whether you experience God.
Many say they have met ,walked with, knew him once, well if you truly did you would never be the same again and most assuredly never refute his existence, or turn away.
There are many false spirits out there which mask them selves as angels of light ,they will be exposed ,my question some, is which spirit do you have.
How can we expect absolute proof of God's existence,just by mere facts and knowledge, when those same cirteria are never fully met as we function day to day as a people and society.
I think the only things that I can confidently say are sure in this world are the immutable universal,scientific ,physiological,physical,chemical,biological,etc,laws that govern and regulate life as we know it.
We can alter, suspend,counteract and defy one law with another,but can not eliminate or create a law they already exist,it may be we just have yet to encounter it, much like the the law of the spirit of life which is in Christ.
Everything man works with,creates,invents,discovers, studies etc. are confined in and based on a set of laws ,standards, or governing factors, ask a scientist,or physicist.
Man in actuality is not so much a free agent able to but we are mastered,controlled,confined and constrained and regulated by these laws.
How much more are we goverened by spiritual laws,set deep within the heart of a person ( conscience)that governs, regulates,our behavior and actions.
Ther are two spiritual laws ,the law of the spirit of life in Christ, and the law of sin and death
We need civil laws because the heart of man is hard,calloused,and seared as with a hot iron or like the bible says sinful,wicked, evil,only God can change a heart like that.
The laws are what we have to work within and when we violate them, be it spiritual or universal there will be consequences , maybe not immediate like gravity but someday the law will enter in and we will see our mortality.
It is an awesome and amazing feeling when you know that you will live forever with Christ
Death is the very essence of the violation of several laws which produce old age and decomposition ,but for me I will live forever.
I don't want to appear like a radical extremist as I was said to be in an earlier thread ,but when you are free from sin, declared innocent ,not guilty ,and you are sure and confident, that when you step from this life and you have a witness on the inside of you that gives you this assurance that this life is not my home,and you will live forever you might just sound like a radical extremist.
It's more then a feeling ,it's an experience I know I have been on both sides of the fence.
I think the only things that I can confidently say are sure in this world are the immutable universal,scientific ,physiological,physical,chemical,biological,etc,laws that govern and regulate life as we know it.
We can alter, suspend,counteract and defy one law with another,but can not eliminate or create a law they already exist,it may be we just have yet to encounter it, much like the the law of the spirit of life which is in Christ.
Everything man works with,creates,invents,discovers, studies etc. are confined in and based on a set of laws ,standards, or governing factors, ask a scientist,or physicist.
Man in actuality is not so much a free agent able to but we are mastered,controlled,confined and constrained and regulated by these laws.
How much more are we goverened by spiritual laws,set deep within the heart of a person ( conscience)that governs, regulates,our behavior and actions.
Ther are two spiritual laws ,the law of the spirit of life in Christ, and the law of sin and death
We need civil laws because the heart of man is hard,calloused,and seared as with a hot iron or like the bible says sinful,wicked, evil,only God can change a heart like that.
The laws are what we have to work within and when we violate them, be it spiritual or universal there will be consequences , maybe not immediate like gravity but someday the law will enter in and we will see our mortality.
It is an awesome and amazing feeling when you know that you will live forever with Christ
Death is the very essence of the violation of several laws which produce old age and decomposition ,but for me I will live forever.
I don't want to appear like a radical extremist as I was said to be in an earlier thread ,but when you are free from sin, declared innocent ,not guilty ,and you are sure and confident, that when you step from this life and you have a witness on the inside of you that gives you this assurance that this life is not my home,and you will live forever you might just sound like a radical extremist.
It's more then a feeling ,it's an experience I know I have been on both sides of the fence.