For those of you looking for absolute proof that God exists....

[Hirohito18200]

As for proof that God exists, I may not be able to see His face, but I see the results of His work and that's good enough for me. Kinda like I can't actually see electricity, but I can measure it's current and voltage and my computer turns on.... that's good enough for me to know electricity exists

So does god have any measurable effects on the universe or is that limited to charged particles?
And do say that god can't show us too much or else it takes away free will, that kind of falls apart when you're looking at the fall of satan, since he was obviously fully aware of god's existence and still chose to rebel. Also, to say that a certain threshold of information would actually take away free will would imply a design flaw or limitation to free will, because it would deny the individual the option of interpriting the data as he/she felt fit.
And if the morality proof were really valid wouldn't that contradict your statement of having no absolute proof? Also, if god makes himself evident in your life, and has convinced you absolutely, are the souls of the rest of human kind not valuable enough to justify him getting up and showing us too, or would that be taking away our free will? (has yours been taken away by god being evident in your life?)

 

[Dr. Khan]

Than prove it Khan. And don't forget, the bible doesn't count. Begging the question and circular arguments are logical fallacies and prove nothing. So, what is your evidence?

:banghead3


{The gift of the Holy Ghost.} It is not my job to prove, but God's. The bible does count because it identifies to me what to expect from God himself. If he does not do what he says then I may say that in the b ible he is a liar. I am unable to say that he is a liar because he has proven himself to me; the matter is settled. You on the other hand struggle with what is written. Therefore let me explain the dynamic by which the bible informs us of the workings of the kingdom of Heaven. First you must search the scriptures. Since there are so many religions and philosophys in the world, please accept my testimony as though I were on the witness stand. Then you be the Judge.
My background previous to conversion was Methodist. This by family. But the day came when I needed to know for myself whether Jesus really worked. I read the new testament (several) times. I found it facinating for some reason. It was as if my eyes were being opened, so I thought because when a coworker asked me about the Holy Ghost I didn't know what he was talking about. He showed me where John the baptist said in Mark chapter one , verse eight; saying, " I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost. Now (He) is Jesus. He showed me other scriptures regarding the Holy Ghost which is my evidence and everything that Jesus said he is in John chapter 14-16.

The Holy Spirit is the evidence. He is all there is and he does what Jesus says He does. :woohoo:

 

[Dr. Khan]

Oh I got baptized in the Holy Ghost. John 7:37-39
Until this happens to you, you have no earthly idea what I'm talking about. Until this happens to you, you're out of the loop. Be not dismayed almost all of Christianity is the same way. In fact many Christians reject it because it is not traditional. This experience began again a hundred years ago after perhaps more than 1700 years.It began not in Rome where many might think the center of Christianity began but in Los Angeles and spread throughout the world. I must admit I don't think of myself as much of a christian without the Experience. To me every thing is relative to the Holy Ghost, the (Spirit of Christ) and his actions. Without him in this world today I would be shaken by all the things that are going on in the world. By the Holy Ghost I don't have to lie to myself to (keep the faith because of fear of God if I don't believe) I'm stuck!!! with Jesus, and I like it that way.

 

[Snowbear]

So does god have any measurable effects on the universe or is that limited to charged particles?
And do say that god can't show us too much or else it takes away free will...

I think so, but many people choose not to believe it.
IMO... the choice to believe what you see or discount it as something God did is free will.

And do say that god can't show us too much or else it takes away free will, that kind of falls apart when you're looking at the fall of satan, since he was obviously fully aware of god's existence and still chose to rebel. Also, to say that a certain threshold of information would actually take away free will would imply a design flaw or limitation to free will, because it would deny the individual the option of interpriting the data as he/she felt fit.
And if the morality proof were really valid wouldn't that contradict your statement of having no absolute proof?...)

Um.... I didn't say any of that...

Also, if god makes himself evident in your life, and has convinced you absolutely, are the souls of the rest of human kind not valuable enough to justify him getting up and showing us too, or would that be taking away our free will? (has yours been taken away by god being evident in your life?)

I believe God shows all people He exists, thus the part about justification of Him showing Himself doesn't apply. So no, my free will has not been taken away because I chose to open my mind enough to see what He has revealed.

 

[Majikthise]

Oh I got baptized in the Holy Ghost. John 7:37-39
Until this happens to you, you have no earthly idea what I'm talking about. Until this happens to you, you're out of the loop.



Been there , done that, felt it once,feel much better nowthat it does not control my life or thoughts.The thing you do not realize is that many atheists came from where you are now.Stay in your loop going round and round,I'm moving on.I realise I do not have the know all ,end all ansewers to everything.What you are talking about is simplicity itself to me.The man made concept of god is not about love ,it is about fear and towing the line.:149:

 

[The Voice of Reason]

... because God is not allowed to give it.

Okay, I'll give - who is it that enforces this "rule" when God breaks it?

If you are going to argue God's existence (or qualities), please stick to revealed faith and the teachings of your Bible (or Koran, etc.). This journey into logic is doomed to failure.

TVOR

PS - anyone else get a headache trying to follow some of this?

 

[andyjamal]

sabaticBut why the long al since his last "official" appearance. If there's a good answer, PLEASE send it to me. Anyone have an idea on this?

It has been less than 200 years since His last "appearance". He was manifested in Baha'u'llah (Glory of God) in the latter half of the nineteenth century. He has given us new teachings which are appropriate for today. Check out the Baha'i Faith forum on this site.

 

[Dr. Khan]

Oh I got baptized in the Holy Ghost. John 7:37-39
Until this happens to you, you have no earthly idea what I'm talking about. Until this happens to you, you're out of the loop.



Been there , done that, felt it once,feel much better nowthat it does not control my life or thoughts.The thing you do not realize is that many atheists came from where you are now.Stay in your loop going round and round,I'm moving on.I realise I do not have the know all ,end all ansewers to everything.What you are talking about is simplicity itself to me.The man made concept of god is not about love ,it is about fear and towing the line.:149:

If you're an atheist why are you in religious forums/ religious education.

 

[The Voice of Reason]

As we all know, ...

A fine post, Limbo, but your choice of words at the very opening line betray your position. You may feel that you know the rest of your post to be "true" (and I'm sure you feel that it is), but what you take as "truth" is not universally accepted. Heck, some of it is open for debate even within the Christian religion.

I'm sure that you are aware that some people (Agnostics and Atheists) that do not share your belief in the existence of God, much less the Biblical accounts of what transpired.

Thanks,
TVOR

 

[The Voice of Reason]

If you're an atheist why are you in religious forums/ religious education.

This is a religious DEBATES forum. If the discussion is not open for debate, it should be moved.

TVOR

 

[Scott1]

If you're an atheist why are you in religious forums/ religious education.

ALL are welcome here to discuss and debate.... part of a well rounded education is learning about beliefs that differ from your own.

Scott

 

[Natural Submission]

I am taking it by the last statement that you found God. Since many of us are non-theist and would love for you to share that info can you please tell us where God resides or hangs-out?

As i have explained on this site before, God is not a man on a throne in the clouds as many wishfully believe. God is not a physical being separate from It's creation. God is not a man, angel or beast. It is an all-embracing spirit that is manifest wherever we turn. God is an all-encompassing force of energy that gives life to this planet and all that exists.

i have said all this on this forum before. If you want to know more feel free to PM me or start another thread (PM if you do that too as i'm not on here all the time)

Shalom, Salaam, Peace...

 

[Natural Submission]

ALL are welcome here to discuss and debate.... part of a well rounded education is learning about beliefs that differ from your own.

Scott

Blessed is he who encourages mankind to seek knowledge

 

[Master Vigil]

{The gift of the Holy Ghost.} It is not my job to prove, but God's.

Well, first you have to prove that god exists. And that the holy spirit exists. Can you do that, with tangible evidence? You haven't yet.

The bible does count because it identifies to me what to expect from God himself. If he does not do what he says then I may say that in the b ible he is a liar.

Well, since there is absolutely no proof that god wrote the bible, your argument falls short. The only proof is that they were written by finite imperfect men, and there is still MUCH speculation on who exactly the authors were. Now, the only proof that god wrote the bible, is whats written in the bible. That is circular reasoning, a logical fallacy, and tears apart your argument.

I am unable to say that he is a liar because he has proven himself to me; the matter is settled. You on the other hand struggle with what is written.

It doesn't matter what is proven to you, I asked you to prove it to us. And I still ask, prove it. Oh, and I struggle with what is written only because it is only the opinion of ancient men, there is no proof that what is written is gods word. I'll struggle with it until someone can prove that god wrote it. Can you prove it? And again, without the circular logical fallacy of using the bible?

My background previous to conversion was Methodist. This by family. But the day came when I needed to know for myself whether Jesus really worked. I read the new testament (several) times. I found it facinating for some reason. It was as if my eyes were being opened, so I thought because when a coworker asked me about the Holy Ghost I didn't know what he was talking about. He showed me where John the baptist said in Mark chapter one , verse eight; saying, " I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost. Now (He) is Jesus. He showed me other scriptures regarding the Holy Ghost which is my evidence and everything that Jesus said he is in John chapter 14-16.

The Holy Spirit is the evidence. He is all there is and he does what Jesus says He does. :woohoo:

Lovely, then show me where the holy spirit exists. Can you prove it with actual tangible evidence? You cannot base your conclusions on unproven premises, for then the conclusion is also that... UNPROVEN.

Oh I got baptized in the Holy Ghost. John 7:37-39
Until this happens to you, you have no earthly idea what I'm talking about. Until this happens to you, you're out of the loop.

Well, since I work with spirits all day every day and have met your "holy ghost." I wouldn't consider myself out of the loop. But I suppose since you have absolutely no evidence for its existence, you have to claim everyone else is "out of the loop." Almost like schizophrenics, their hallucinations are extremely real to them, and everyone else is, as you say, "out of the loop."

 

[The Voice of Reason]

Ah, thanks for pointing that out, TVOR. Post edited.

Limbo -

Let me begin by saying that I do NOT disrespect your religious views, in any way. The removal of the phrase "As we all know" from the beginning of your original post, however, does not alleviate the problem. I am merely making the observation that what you take as "truth", you do so by virtue of revealed faith. Whether the premise (of it's truth) is stated or unstated is immaterial to this argument. Just as Master Vigil is doing now in his discussion with Dr. Khan (in this very thread), the fact that some see the Bible as the inspired word of God (or as some see it - the word of God Himself) is not universally accepted, and cannot be used (logically speaking) as the basis for an argument until it is proven to be so.
Of course, those that believe that the Bible IS the word of God can argue amongst themselves as to it's meanings and interpretations, but when they venture into a world that is also populated by Agnostics, Atheists, Budhists, Daoists, Muslims, etc., they now have an entirely new problem arise - that is to say - they MUST have some way of proving the scripture to be the word of God. As Master Vigil is in the process of pointing out to Dr. Khan, you cannot (from the standpoint of logic) rely on the claim that the Bible is the word of God because it says so - that is begging the question, and it is a hollow argument.

TVOR

 

[Dr. Khan]

ALL are welcome here to discuss and debate.... part of a well rounded education is learning about beliefs that differ from your own.

Scott

In no way am I suggesting that an atheist is not welcome, only that I wanted him to ask himself that question. Why would he continue to fight if he is already convinced that there is no one to look up to in the heavens.:bonk: sorry....

 

[Dr. Khan]

Well, first you have to prove that god exists. And that the holy spirit exists. Can you do that, with tangible evidence? You haven't yet.


Well, since there is absolutely no proof that god wrote the bible, your argument falls short. The only proof is that they were written by finite imperfect men, and there is still MUCH speculation on who exactly the authors were. Now, the only proof that god wrote the bible, is whats written in the bible. That is circular reasoning, a logical fallacy, and tears apart your argument.

It doesn't matter what is proven to you, I asked you to prove it to us. And I still ask, prove it. Oh, and I struggle with what is written only because it is only the opinion of ancient men, there is no proof that what is written is gods word. I'll struggle with it until someone can prove that god wrote it. Can you prove it? And again, without the circular logical fallacy of using the bible?

Lovely, then show me where the holy spirit exists. Can you prove it with actual tangible evidence? You cannot base your conclusions on unproven premises, for then the conclusion is also that... UNPROVEN.

Well, since I work with spirits all day every day and have met your "holy ghost." I wouldn't consider myself out of the loop. But I suppose since you have absolutely no evidence for its existence, you have to claim everyone else is "out of the loop." Almost like schizophrenics, their hallucinations are extremely real to them, and everyone else is, as you say, "out of the loop."

The Holy Spirit Himself is the tangible evidence. As soon... as you look for him, he'll be there. My experience is that he demands absolute surrender.
You may not be willing to do that. :jiggy: The reward however, is great.
With the Holy Spirit comes the wisdom of God, which is Jesus Christ,

 

[Master Vigil]

The Holy Spirit Himself is the tangible evidence. As soon... as you look for him, he'll be there. My experience is that he demands absolute surrender.
You may not be willing to do that. :jiggy: The reward however, is great.
With the Holy Spirit comes the wisdom of God, which is Jesus Christ,

My first doubt with your argument is when you call the holy spirit a him. Spirits do not have gender, so I'm wondering which loop you are in. But that isn't the point. The point is that the holy spirit is not universally tangible. Just because "you" feel it, doesn't prove a thing. Remember the schizophrenics... Do you believe their hallucinations are real??? I doubt it, but they do FEEL it!! Again, NOT PROOF!!!!!! Perhaps some reading of Descartes would be good. Read his arguments, and see why it's so difficult to prove that god exists (and even harder, to prove that the bible is the word of this so called god.) Like I said, can you show us where the holy spirit is, point him out so we can see "it." If not, than we are just taking your word for it and that is not proof at all. You fall short my friend.

Oh, and I don't care about the reward, you see. I can say... "When you actually understand the holy spirit and the rest of the spirits of this universe, you find that the christian god does not exist, and that jesus was just a man whos story got embellished and blown out of proportion by finite imperfect humans." Of course, you don't think that is right, but the point here is, that it is opinion. Yours is also that, OPINION!!! Not fact.

 

[Master Vigil]

Oh, and about the surrender part. For 8 years I have been surrendering myself to the spirits. So I could say the exact same thing to you, that I don't believe you have completely surrendered your self to the spirits, because you still need a man made book to believe in.

 

[Scuba Pete]

MV, The Holy Spirit uses many signs to convict and to persuade. The Bible is only one.