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Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Rozs, Jan 23, 2005.

  1. Rozs

    Rozs Member

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    Can we talk about Purgatory. I heard that Purgatory is one of the teachings of the R. Catholic church. Can we talk about it?
    What is Purgatory?
    Thanx
     
  2. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    On purgatory:

    Purgatory exists because God is both just and merciful.

    Purgatory is “like a refiner’s fire” (Mal 3:2). It refines and purifies those who at the moment of death are neither good enough for an immediate heaven or bad enough for hell.

    1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

    1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:



    As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.

    The existence of purgatory logically follows from two facts: our imperfection on earth and our perfection in heaven.

    At the moment of death, most of us are not completely sanctified (purified, made holy), even though we are justified, or saved by having been baptized into Christ’s Body and having thereby received God’s supernatural life into our souls, having accepted him by faith and not having rejected him by unrepented mortal sin.

    ......but in heaven we will be perfectly sanctified, with no lingering bad habits or imperfections in our souls.

    Therefore, for most of us, there must be some additional change, some purification, between death and heaven. This is purgatory.

    Is purgatory found in Scripture? You decide:

    Scripture speaks of a cleansing spiritual fire: (1 Cor 3:15, 1 Pet 1:7)

    In death many of us are still imperfect: (1 Jn 1:8)

    In heaven we will all be perfect: (Mt 5:48, Rev 21:27)

    Scripture also distinguishes sins that cannot be forgiven either before or after death from sins that can be forgiven after death: (Mt 12:31-32)

    The reality of purgatory is found in Scripture, though not the word - just like the Trinity.
     
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  3. Rozs

    Rozs Member

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    The refiner's fire in Mal 3:2 is not the purgatory.
    It is somebody that will be sent by God.

    Mal 3:1 - 2
     
  4. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    Correct..... it is LIKE a refiners fire..... that passage is used as an example to explain the principle.... it is not meant as as evidence for purgatory per se.

    Anything else?
     
  5. Rozs

    Rozs Member

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    It is Jesus Christ Not Purgatory in MAL 3:2!!!

    TOPIC: The PURGATORY of the ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH

    Q1) Is the word "Purgatory" present in any version of the Bible?

    A1) You can never read the word Purgatory in any authentic Bible in our times. Even in the Roman Catholic Bible that has some additional books.

    Q2) Is Bible lacking some important information about salvation?

    A2) No, the Bible is very complete we don't need to add other doctrines or teachings that would support the Bible.

    ISAIAS 34:16
    Seek ye out of the book of the LORD, and read: no one of these shall fail, none shall want her mate: for my mouth it hath commanded, and his spirit it hath gathered them.

    The word of God will never fail and will never past away

    MATTHEW 24:35
    Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

    Q3) Can we add some teachings that is not found in the Bible?

    A3) Paul said...

    I CORINTHIANS 4:6
    My brothers, it is because of you that I have taken Apollos and myself as examples of these things, so that in us you might see that it is not wise to go farther than what is in the holy Writings, so that no one of you may be lifted up against his brother.

    We must never exceed on the things that are written. We must not add another doctrine such as Purgatory.

    REVELATION 22:18-19
    18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

    19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

    WE MUST NEVER ADD OTHER TEACHINGS FOREIGN TO THE BIBLE!

    Q4) Is MALACHI 3:2 refers to the Purgatory?

    A4) No because in this verse...

    MALACHI 3:2
    But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

    God is very particular about the refiner's fire. He said, it will come. for HE IS LIKE A REFINER'S FIRE. It is a prophecy. If you read the whole chapter 3 of this book you'll see that there is a prophecy about someone who will come.

    MAL 3:1-5
    1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
    2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
    3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.
    4 Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the LORD, as in the days of old, and as in former years.
    5 And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts.

    Q5) When shall it come?

    A5) God added to the prophecy....

    MALACHI 4:5
    Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:

    Before it come, God will send Elijah.

    Q6) Who is the Elijah that should come before the coming of the messenger of God?

    A6) In John 17:10-13...

    10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
    11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
    12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
    13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

    John the Baptist said...
    JOHN 1:23
    He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias.

    The Elijah prophesied by God was John The Baptist.

    Q7) Who is the messenger of God who was likened to a refiner's fire?

    A7) It was Jesus Christ not the R. Catholic's Purgatory!!!

    JOHN 1:29-30
    29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
    30 This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.

    MATTHEW 3:11-12
    11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
    12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

    Conclusion:
    The refiner's fire in MAL 3:2 is not the PURGATORY! It is our Lord Jesus Christ. He is the one who will baptize us in Spirit and in FIRE. It is not the PURGATORY of the R. Catholic Church.
     
  6. SoulTYPE

    SoulTYPE Well-Known Member

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    ....I get told to use the PM function so often...rofl
     
  7. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    So Rozs,

    Did you ask the question to get an answer or did you already have an answer and just wanted a fight?

    The Roman Catholic Church does not accept "Sola Scripture" as the end all. He quoted from their writings and that should be sufficient for them. Now if you couched your "troll" in a different fashion this would be different. As it is, it appears you bushwhacked the man. Hey, I disagree with him completely about purgatory, but I won't resort to this type of bait and switch to do it.

    SOGFPP: Thanks for telling us why the Catholics believe what they do.
     
  8. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    Hehe.... thanks NetDoc..... it looks like our pal Rozs was looking to "learn me a lesson" ;)

    Is the word "Trinity" present in any version of the Bible?
    Nope.... but you have yet to prove that the concept of Purgatory in non-biblical.... you've only attempted to disprove the use of the word "Purgatory".
    Again.... it has not been added.... it's right there in the Bible..... if you read about a "small winged bird with web feet", but don't read the word "duck" in the story would you then deny the existance of a duck? You make no sense Rosz.
    Hoo boy.... Christian apologists 101....... don't waste your time posting something that your opponent has already explained:
    Remember this?
    Now Rosz..... lets see if you can find the correct information to cut and paste on these items that you ignored last time:

    Scripture speaks of a cleansing spiritual fire: (1 Cor 3:15, 1 Pet 1:7)

    In death many of us are still imperfect: (1 Jn 1:8)

    In heaven we will all be perfect: (Mt 5:48, Rev 21:27)

    Scripture also distinguishes sins that cannot be forgiven either before or after death from sins that can be forgiven after death: (Mt 12:31-32)

    The quote from Mal is not proof..... I was using the analogy of the refiners fire to help explain the concept.... let's see how you handle these verses.

    Hey NetDoc.... $5.00 he doesn't respond.;)

    Scott


     
  9. Rozs

    Rozs Member

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    Sorry for the delay...

    I CORINTHIANS 3:15

    Q) Is the "fire" mentioned in this verse the Purgatory?

    A) Before we read I Cor 3:15 lets start at I Cor 3:13...

    I Cor 3:13
    Every man's work will be made clear in that DAY, because it will be tested by fire; and the fire itself will make clear the quality of every man's work.

    The works of men will be revealed by the fire.

    Q) But which DAY will the fire reveal every man's work?

    A) Let's read Romans 2:16...

    Romans 2:16
    In the DAY when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my GOSPEL.

    Q) From whom did the Gospel came from?

    A) Paul said that his gospel came from Christ.

    Galatians 2:12
    For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

    Q) So what does I Cor 3:15 mean?

    A)
    I Corinthians 3:14-15

    14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
    15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

    If anyone accept and live according to the gospel of Christ. His works are in accordance with the gospel. He shall receive the reward. But if anyone failed in following the gospel. He can be save. But the gospel or the word of God shall judge him.

    Romans 2:12
    For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

    ------------------->>>>>>>

    I JOHN 1:8

    Q) Does it mean that if we sin we are not perfect?

    A) No. Because if that is the case NOBODY will be perfect.

    Ecclesiastes 7:20
    For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.

    Even Mary the mother of Jesus and the apostles have sinned. According to this verse.

    Q) Are there perfect persons in the Bible?

    A)

    Job was perfect

    Job 1:1
    There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

    Noah was perfect

    Genesis 6:9
    These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

    They are perfect but it does not mean that they never sinned.
    Because according to the Bible...

    Ecclesiastes 7:20
    For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.

    If we sinned we must ask for forgiveness

    Matthew 6:12
    And forgive us our sins, as we forgive those who sinned against us.

    We must forgive others so we will be forgiven.

    ------------------->>>>>>>
    MATTHEW 5:48, REVELATION 21:27

    Q) How can we reach perfection according to the Bible?

    A) If we can control our tongues in speaking we are considered perfect. Because the one who control his tongue in speaking, controls his whole body.

    James 3:2

    For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.

    Q) Will all of us be perfect in heaven?

    A) Yes. That is why God gives us his commandments here on earth because this is our training ground. All of us are sinners just like the Corinthians

    I Corinthians 6:9-10

    9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

    10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

    But it is God that makes us clean...

    I Corinthians 6:11

    And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

    And that will only happen once. In our baptism.

    Acts 2:38

    Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

    But if we will turn away from God...

    Hebrews 6:4-6

    4 As for those who at one time saw the light, tasting the good things from heaven, and having their part in the Holy Spirit,

    5 With knowledge of the good word of God, and of the powers of the coming time,

    6 And then let themselves be turned away, it is not possible for their hearts to be made new a second time; because they themselves put the Son of God on the cross again, openly shaming him.

    We would be hopeless...

    So, this is the time that we should be good and be accepted to God because I believe that there is no more second chance and there is no Purgatory that would cleanse me if I die unrighteous and unjust. That's why we are given this chance to be upright and just because when we die...

    Ecclesiastes 9:5

    For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing,

    We cannot make ourselves acceptable to God, We cannot repent when we are dead. No prayers or purgatory would amend to the thing we have done while we are living. We will be judged according to the things we done. Not by how many candles are lighted for us or how many prayers are recited for us. Even all the candles in the world are been lighted for us, if we died very cruel and very unrighteous we shall be in Hell. Because this is how God will judged us...

    Revelation 21:12

    And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
     
  10. Rozs

    Rozs Member

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    I TIMOTHY 6:12
    12 Fight the good fight of the faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called when you made your good confession in the presence of many witnesses.
     
  11. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    Somehow, I don't think I Timothy 6:12 includes trolling. You can still treat people with respect, rather than look like you are merely picking a fight. You just look like someone shadow boxing.

    Here is the best way to "Fight the good fight of the faith."

    John 13:34 "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35 By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."

    Don't mistake intolerance as a Christian value. You won't find it listed here:

    Galations 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.
     
  12. fromthe heart

    fromthe heart Well-Known Member

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    Scott...I've not read the scriptures you posted here but I will...I do, however, have a question...if this be the case then why did the one who died on the cross with Jesus go to Glory upon his death...wouldn't he have been sent to purgatory instead if this is what we are to believe? But Jesus said that on that day the man would be with Him in heaven? Am I missing something? I really still do not understand this in-between place of redemption. Is there anything further that would point to this place? Thank you.:)
     
  13. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    fromtheheart,
    Thank you for the question.....
    Let me start by saying that this thread and my opinions on Purgatory are in no way meant to challenge any non-Catholics to believe. I honestly thought Rosz was just trying to learn about the RCC, and like NetDoc pointed out, Rosz was just trying to start a debate.
    I really don't think that belief in Purgatory is something that YOU personally need as a Christian..... I mean that it's not "required" for your salvation.... so believe it or don't. The reason I do, is that it clears up many issues about sin and the consequences of sin in relation to my salvation.
    Christ died on the cross for my sins, yes..... but it did not perfect me... I continue to sin.... so, what I came up with is this:
    • My sins are meaningless, they have no punishment, and I get into heaven anyhow because of my faith in Christ, no matter if I live my life as a murdering porn star.:eek:
    • Or... my sins DO have consequences and I must pay the penalty for transgressing against our loving God.
    I believe that Christ died for my sins, he opened up heaven for me, but I don't think Christ gave me a free pass to live however I want and get into heaven based on my faith in Him...... heck, the Bible tells us that even the Devil believes in Him!

    Let me use an analogy that might help explain my views and then I'll get to your question:

    We're taking a plane ride to heaven. Ok? You walk up to the ticket counter to pay for your ticket...... and you are suprised to find out that Jesus Christ has already paid in full for your ride to heaven.... nice fella, that Jesus;)
    So..... you're all set, right? Going to heaven.... a free ride. You've got a lifetime of stuff (sin) in your bags and on your person..... but no matter, you've got you're free ticket, paid for by the Savior.
    But wait..... what's this? You have your ticket, your bag full of guns and knives (your sins) and see the security checkpoint up ahead. Uh oh. ......" but Jesus bought my ticket..... let me on the plane!"...... but you know you are never going to get on that plane...... nothing imperfect gets into heaven.

    So, if one is to be honest, and knows that you can not stand before God unless you are perfect..... and Christ died for us, but yet we are still sinners (imperfect).... how does one get into heaven and stand before God? Some will say that we become perfect AFTER our death because of our faith.... why? how? Christ's death was ineffectual on this earth, but only works upon our death..... I think that's ridiculous.

    Oh well... let me get to your question:
    I believe the theif on the cross is a great example of the need for Purgatory.... suprised?
    We don't have the opportunity to look the Son of God in the face an hour before our death and have our salvation assured by the lips of the Savior. Christ said it, it was done. Period.... but we have a bit different circumstance in our life.
    So, unless any of you out there have a time machine and are planning on dying on a cross next to a Jew 2,000 years ago.... we better get a better idea of salvation!

    Scott
     
  14. fromthe heart

    fromthe heart Well-Known Member

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    Hi Scott...I'm not trying to say what you believe is wrong or that as a christian non-catholic that I must accept this way. I'm just looking at it as if I no nothing at all. Your airplane thingy is real creative but this is my way of thinking prior to reflecting back to your purgatory issue. I see us standing there before the Lord and with some sin still on our hands with our heads hanging and prior to entering into the kingdom of heaven having to explain these sins, I see also that Jesus has a book where my name is written and that He is also showing me the ways of my life that include these sins but for the things I did for Him He is offering me crowns to lay at His feet...if they are few I am in shame I'd not done more. If I've lost reward before Him and have nothing to lay at His feet then I'm ashamed but not prevented from the kingdom because of that little book called the Lambs Book of Life...my name is there...God knew when it was written there if I was worthy of this and just what I'd do the rest of my life and that I would fall by the wayside by times...but He also knew that because of His love I'd repent and try my best to do things to glorify His Holy name. We will not just walk into heaven without a full account of our entire life;good OR bad.

    Now to the issue of the scripture you gave.
    1Corinthians3:15 This 'TO ME' speaks of our works unto the Lord and the trials how these works will be revealed as to whether they are solid works or haven't made the grade. It says to me that even given trials by fire the faithful believer will still prevail because we are ourselves a temple of God and htat God will destroy anything or anyone who tries to defile that temple and basically says that we are of God and not of our selves.
    1Peter 1 again says that through the trials believeing in Him no matter what comes our way we are God's.
    1 John 1:8 says we are sinners and to think for a minute we aren't we lie to ourselves, that we must confess our sins and He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
    Matt.5:48 This to me tells us to model ourselves as our Father in heavne who is Perfect and this is the final verse in Matt.5 which is summing up why and what the commandments are about for us.
    Rev. 21:27 This to me says that if you haven't asked for forgiveness and beensaved and had your name written in the Lambs Book of Life you will NOT see the kingdom of heaven.

    Well, my dear friend This is how I see the scripture as you listed it.
    You are right none of us are ever going to be worthy to enter the kingdom of heaven...but we will only by the saving grace of the Lord our God,in that He sent His only begotten Son to allow us a way to be in that wonderful book.

    That's MY personal take on this subject. I do not in any way try to demean how Scott believes. I, however, do not see any scripture anywhere on a holding place for those who's names are written in the Lambs Book of Life. we will be as that man on the cross with Jesus worthy in each our own ways....and as about unworthy as it comes if we think we can just live any old way and won't have to answer for it.

    Smiles,:)
     
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  15. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    fromtheheart,

    I love ya, I love ya, I love ya! Don't ever change!

    I loved your explaination..... simply beautiful, humble..... WONDERFUL.

    I hope you understand why I believe what I believe (not agree, but understand) and I have learned a lot about you..... that's what I love about this forum.

    Your brother in Christ,
    Scott
     
  16. Rozs

    Rozs Member

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    John 8:31-32
    31To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

    Nothing Personal Pal, Just The TRUTH. :)
     
  17. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    You know,

    It always pains me when ANYONE uses scriptures to justify their bad behavour. You weren't "speaking the truth in love". You spoke to entrap and with less than honorable intentions. You do a diservice to all who call themselves Christian. Such behavour is worthy only of rebuke and not twisting scripture to justify it.
     
  18. Rozs

    Rozs Member

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    I Cornthians 13:6
    6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.

    II Corinthians 6:14-16
    14Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? 15What harmony is there between Christ and Belial? What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever? 16What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said: “I will live with them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people.”

    :)
     
  19. Rozs

    Rozs Member

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    NetDoc,
    I'm not here to ridicule anybody. I'm not after your personal things or whatever.
    If I hurt anybody, I did not did it because I wanted to. I'm sorry.
    Let's talk about doctrines and teachings. This is a debate forum. Let's not get personal. And again, I'm sorry if someone is hurt.
    No hard feelings. Let us be Biblical!
     
  20. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    Rozs,

    What NetDoc and I have a problem with is that your opening post was an obvious lie:
    You obviously had an agenda, and it was unChristian to lie and pretend "gee, what's Purgatory?", when you knew all along what it was......... so get Biblical, have some fun here on the forums.... just know that you won't fool me again.... and in trying to do so you lost my respect, and the respect of at least one or two of your non-Catholic Christians as well.

    Scott
     
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