For Christians who think God considers abortion to be murder

[nPeace]

Where does it state that abortion is murder is Exodus 23?

Exodus 23
New International Version

Laws of Justice and Mercy
23 “Do not spread false reports. Do not help a guilty person by being a malicious witness.

2 “Do not follow the crowd in doing wrong. When you give testimony in a lawsuit, do not pervert justice by siding with the crowd, 3 and do not show favoritism to a poor person in a lawsuit.

4 “If you come across your enemy’s ox or donkey wandering off, be sure to return it. 5 If you see the donkey of someone who hates you fallen down under its load, do not leave it there; be sure you help them with it.

6 “Do not deny justice to your poor people in their lawsuits. 7 Have nothing to do with a false charge and do not put an innocent or honest person to death, for I will not acquit the guilty.

8 “Do not accept a bribe, for a bribe blinds those who see and twists the words of the innocent.

9 “Do not oppress a foreigner; you yourselves know how it feels to be foreigners, because you were foreigners in Egypt.

Sabbath Laws
10 “For six years you are to sow your fields and harvest the crops, 11 but during the seventh year let the land lie unplowed and unused. Then the poor among your people may get food from it, and the wild animals may eat what is left. Do the same with your vineyard and your olive grove.

12 “Six days do your work, but on the seventh day do not work, so that your ox and your donkey may rest, and so that the slave born in your household and the foreigner living among you may be refreshed.

13 “Be careful to do everything I have said to you. Do not invoke the names of other gods; do not let them be heard on your lips.

The Three Annual Festivals
14 “Three times a year you are to celebrate a festival to me.

15 “Celebrate the Festival of Unleavened Bread; for seven days eat bread made without yeast, as I commanded you. Do this at the appointed time in the month of Aviv, for in that month you came out of Egypt.

“No one is to appear before me empty-handed.

16 “Celebrate the Festival of Harvest with the firstfruits of the crops you sow in your field.

“Celebrate the Festival of Ingathering at the end of the year, when you gather in your crops from the field.

17 “Three times a year all the men are to appear before the Sovereign Lord.

18 “Do not offer the blood of a sacrifice to me along with anything containing yeast.

“The fat of my festival offerings must not be kept until morning.

19 “Bring the best of the firstfruits of your soil to the house of the Lord your God.

“Do not cook a young goat in its mother’s milk.

God’s Angel to Prepare the Way
20 “See, I am sending an angel ahead of you to guard you along the way and to bring you to the place I have prepared. 21 Pay attention to him and listen to what he says. Do not rebel against him; he will not forgive your rebellion, since my Name is in him. 22 If you listen carefully to what he says and do all that I say, I will be an enemy to your enemies and will oppose those who oppose you. 23 My angel will go ahead of you and bring you into the land of the Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Canaanites, Hivites and Jebusites, and I will wipe them out. 24 Do not bow down before their gods or worship them or follow their practices. You must demolish them and break their sacred stones to pieces. 25 Worship the Lord your God, and his blessing will be on your food and water. I will take away sickness from among you, 26 and none will miscarry or be barren in your land. I will give you a full life span.

27 “I will send my terror ahead of you and throw into confusion every nation you encounter. I will make all your enemies turn their backs and run. 28 I will send the hornet ahead of you to drive the Hivites, Canaanites and Hittites out of your way. 29 But I will not drive them out in a single year, because the land would become desolate and the wild animals too numerous for you. 30 Little by little I will drive them out before you, until you have increased enough to take possession of the land.

31 “I will establish your borders from the Red Sea to the Mediterranean Sea, and from the desert to the Euphrates River. I will give into your hands the people who live in the land, and you will drive them out before you. 32 Do not make a covenant with them or with their gods. 33 Do not let them live in your land or they will cause you to sin against me, because the worship of their gods will certainly be a snare to you.”

Verse 23. Not chapter 23.
Do you understand how the Bible is structured?
The Chapter precedes the verse. The verse follows the colon.
So Exodus Chapter 23, verse 23 would be Exodus 23:23

Hope that helps.

 

[nPeace]

When it talks about a serious injury, in all probability including what happens to the (living?) newborn, I wonder then, if what the rule is saying even is effective: what if the visibility/detect-ability of the injury to the newborn was highly delayed?

I wish I understood what you said here.
Do you mind rephrasing it. I really am interested in your questions.

 

[nPeace]

I don't think that means that it would not be an effective rule.
It would cause people to be careful of not injuring pregnant women for a start.
If an injury could not be determined then I suppose that would mean there was no retribution.
I doubt that anything that showed up years later would count but that doesn't mean it was not a effective law.

From the context of verses 23, and 24, it shows how Jehovah viewed life... including the life of the unborn... and more so, seriously.
How do we know this?
What happened if one accidentally killed someone? Deuteronomy 19:4-5

That was not the case with the loss of the child's life. Accident or no accident, the one who caused the death, was to be put to death.
Fleeing to the City of refuge would not save him.

The main point here though, is that the unborn was considered a life by God, and those who love him.

 

[nPeace]

Jewish law interprets the loss/harm as referring to the mother.

Abortion: Halakhic Perspectives | Jewish Women's Archive

Sadly.
Considering the Jewish record though, we should not be surprised,
Even Jesus did not hold back, in describing them. Matthew 23

 

[nPeace]

That means if there is serious injury to the WOMAN who was pregnant. SHE is considered a human being, but the fetus is NOT. The man who caused the premature birth isn't considered a murderer, because he didn't kill a human being. All he did was to kill a potential human being that the potential father can choose to have the offender fined for.

You have the burden of proof to demonstrate that verse refers to "serious injury to the WOMAN who was pregnant".

 

[1213]

Where exactly in the bible does it state that God considers abortion to be murder? Below is the only bible verse I could find on the subject.

Exodus 21:22-25 New International Version (NIV)
“If people are fighting and hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman’s husband demands and the court allows. But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.

According to this, God clearly does NOT consider abortion to be murder, ...

That speaks of premature birth. It is possible that the baby doesn't die always in that case. And if the baby is not harmed, then there is only fined. If serious injury, life for life.... ...if we would go by that, the one who kills a baby, deserves death.

But, even without that, would you want to be killed, if not, then don't kill babies.

 

[QuestioningMind]

Verse 23. Not chapter 23.
Do you understand how the Bible is structured?
The Chapter precedes the verse. The verse follows the colon.
So Exodus Chapter 23, verse 23 would be Exodus 23:23

Hope that helps.

What would be most helpful would be for you to actually provide the quote that you're referring to.

 

[nPeace]

What would be most helpful would be for you to actually provide the quote that you're referring to.

Oh, right. The scriptures in your OP doesn't show the verse in their quote.
Exodus 21:23 But if a serious injury results, then you must require a life for a life--

 

[Brickjectivity]

As for the 'living' in Ecc 9:4, it seems that the Christian logic might easily apply that to mean the 'saved.' So that would probably turn that kind of upside down as well.

In the case of Ecclesiastes the writer is not Christian, however they could, similar to what you suggest, be talking about being cut off from Abraham rather than dying. Christians inherit a lot of ideas and schemas from Judaism, so its not always clear what is Christian and what originally isn't. Forgiving enemies precedes Christianity by many centuries if not longer. Before Christianity the Jews were singing "Some trust in chariots, but we..." (from Psalm 20) Before Christianity appeared the story of Elijah has sent a conquered invading army from Syria back to their homes with full bellies. Long, long before Christianity Israel's own children are likely taught by their parents at home that if they are ever kidnapped to teach their barbaric captors, and this is what causes the general Naaman to go and see Elijah (in the story of Elijah). This horrible Naaman's captured slave girl cares for this horrible man and helps him to meet Elijah, and this is the kind of tradition that Christians inherit our own ideas from -- from Jewish ones.

This is about Jeremiah's difficult decision on becoming a prophet. I don't think everyone who was a fetus was appointed as a prophet to the nations.

That is a brilliant comment, thanks. I hadn't thought of it as Jeremiah's decision process.

 

[Sand Dancer]

That is a brilliant comment, thanks. I hadn't thought of it as Jeremiah's decision process.

Jeremiah is quite a slog, but the context is that he was very reluctant to become a prophet and finally was persuaded to take it on, which is good because he was very compassionate and courageous.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Jeremiah is quite a slog, but the context is that he was very reluctant to become a prophet and finally was persuaded to take it on, which is good because he was very compassionate and courageous.

Not intending to derail, but I always wonder why he claims to have unclean lips that have to be cleansed. Its one of the questions which floats in my mind, and I think it will eventually be important to me. Has an answer to this occurred to you?

 

[Sand Dancer]

Not intending to derail, but I always wonder why he claims to have unclean lips that have to be cleansed. Its one of the questions which floats in my mind, and I think it will eventually be important to me. Has an answer to this occurred to you?

Jeremiah or Isaiah? Which verse?

 

[Brickjectivity]

Jeremiah or Isaiah? Which verse?

Oh, right. I'm mixing Jeremiah and Isaiah. Nevermind. Its Isaiah 6:5, but we're getting way, way off topic of abortion, now.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Where exactly in the bible does it state that God considers abortion to be murder? Below is the only bible verse I could find on the subject.

Exodus 21:22-25 New International Version (NIV)
“If people are fighting and hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman’s husband demands and the court allows. But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.

According to this, God clearly does NOT consider abortion to be murder, otherwise the individual who caused the woman to give birth prematurely would be charged with murder. Instead it's up to the prospective father to decide if he wants to ask the courts to fine the offender... if he doesn't then the offender gets off without any penalty whatsoever. This states that its up to the family to decide if the loss of the fetus was 'wrong' in any way... well, at least it says it's up the the prospective father, since the woman's opinion isn't even taken into account. How is it that so many Christians claim that their god is against abortion and considers it to be murder, when the bible states otherwise?

Rather sad that so many Christians don't even know what their holy book says on the subject.

Did you understand the verse? It literally says if the baby dies, it's life for life.

 

[Wildswanderer]

That means if there is serious injury to the WOMAN who was pregnant. SHE is considered a human being, but the fetus is NOT. The man who caused the premature birth isn't considered a murderer, because he didn't kill a human being. All he did was to kill a potential human being that the potential father can choose to have the offender fined for.

That's not what it says.
It says if the baby dies, the offender dies.

 

[Sand Dancer]

Did you understand the verse? It literally says if the baby dies, it's life for life.

It just depends on the translation. Wycliffe Bible is one from the 1300s and it's pretty straightforward:

If men chide, and a man smiteth a woman with child, and soothly he maketh the child dead-born, but the woman liveth over that smiting, he shall be subject to the harm (he shall be subject to a fine), as much as the woman's husband asketh (for), and as the judges deem (appropriate). Soothly if the death of her followeth (And if her death followeth), he shall yield life for life,

 

[Brian2]

In all fairness to the context, now that I read the chapters and verses in proximity to this verse, I don't think many modern people can easily predict or assume very much, about hardly any of the judgements that follow many of the rules. (this, despite "western civilization having the bible at its foundation") The proscriptions and prescriptions here do seem radically alien to what we experience. Even the methods - for example, even allowing, in verse 23 here, a family member to judge the cost. In modern times, we leave that kind of thing to the state

Definitely rules for a different type of society.

 

[Brian2]

Jewish law interprets the loss/harm as referring to the mother.

Abortion: Halakhic Perspectives | Jewish Women's Archive

When I read it again it does look that way.

 

[Brian2]

That means if there is serious injury to the WOMAN who was pregnant. SHE is considered a human being, but the fetus is NOT. The man who caused the premature birth isn't considered a murderer, because he didn't kill a human being. All he did was to kill a potential human being that the potential father can choose to have the offender fined for.

You might be right about that.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Where exactly in the bible does it state that God considers abortion to be murder? Below is the only bible verse I could find on the subject.

This also does not declare abortion to be murder, however it is a scripture about the beast:

[Rev 12:4-6 NIV] "4 Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that it might devour her child the moment he was born. 5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, who "will rule all the nations with an iron scepter." And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne. 6 The woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days."​

There is this dragon symbol in Revelation, and there is this Woman symbol and a Child symbol. The meaning of the symbols I leave, however this verse frightens many people. There are sermons about abortion which mention these symbols. You can attach many meanings to these symbols, because the text is from long ago and is difficult to pin down. Even searching for books about it you can drown in the number of conflicting opinions, lies and crazy conspiracy theories. There is not an official interpretation unless you count my interpretation as the official one; and I haven't released mine, yet.