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Featured For Christians. Was the flood real or just a myth?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Deeje, Nov 20, 2017.

  1. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    Wow! Too bad that the concept of evidence is beyond you. Misinterpreting facts is not evidence for your side.

    Evidence is data that supports only one side of an argument. If your concept is not testable then by definition you have no evidence since an idea has to be falsifiable to even have evidence for it. An idea that is not testable is merely an ad hoc explanation and worthless in the world of reality.

    Would you like to learn how and why we know that there was no flood? There is a thread somewhere here dedicated to that topic.
     
  2. Looncall

    Looncall Well-Known Member

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    People must live near water to survive, so of course there are lots of flood stories.

    A flood such as described in the bible would leave easily-noticed traces worldwide, datable to the same time. None such is found. Therefore, Noah's flood never happened. No amount of theological tap dancing can rescue it.

    Anyone teaching Noah's flood as real is guilty of fraud.
     
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  3. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    Here’s another article presenting evidence on the Flood.

    There are just too many details given in the Biblical account, including dates and the lengths of each related event, to deny the presumption of it being allegorical:

    Noah’s Log—Does It Have Meaning for Us? — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

    And when combining all the evidence that’s been disclosed in this thread which supports a global Flood — geologic, archaeologic, anthropologic, etc. — it reveals a closed-mind of those who wish to ignore it all.


    I understand why so many wish not to accept it. That would mean giving the Bible a more credible stance, and that would mean it’s miracles, also....the Flood was a huge supernatural event. The accepted naturalistic tenets of the scientific establishment would falter, if not crumble, and that cannot be allowed!

    More evidence of the Flood will be posted.
     
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  4. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    If none such is found I wonder why there are hundreds of similar easily-noticed traces of flood stories about divine warnings given where both humans and animals spared by being preserved alive in a vessel.
    All found in earth's continents and islands of the sea ranging from (A)Australia (Kurnai ) to New Zealand ( Maoir ) to (W)Wales ( Dwyfan-Dwyfach legend ). Even in Egypt's Book of the Dead besides Babylon's Gilgamesh epic.
    In China's flood legend (Lolo) comes the Chinese character for the word 'ship' is derived from the idea of eight (8) persons in a vessel. ( Eight people were in Noah's Ark ).
    Even if one does Not want to accept the Deluge account as being real, a reason for that Flood was because of the amount of violence on Earth as per Genesis 6:11, and Jesus forewarned at Matthew 24:37-39 that as the days of Noah were so it would be with the coming of Jesus that people will be taking No notice. So, as most people of Noah's day paid No notice, it should Not surprise anyone that is also true of today's world.
     
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  5. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    Hey, @URAVIP2ME, you stole my thunder, about the Chinese character for “ship”....good job!

    So here is a compelling piece of evidence, the dimensions of the Ark itself, offered by a Naval architect:

    “For more than 40 years, I have worked as a naval architect and marine engineer. My work has involved designing vessels of various shapes and sizes, along with the mechanical and other systems that propel them. In 1963, while I was living in British Columbia, Canada, one of Jehovah’s Witnesses showed me that the Bible book of Genesis describes Noah’s ark as a long box, or chest. This description intrigued me, and I decided to look into it further.

    The Genesis account shows that God determined to cleanse the earth of wickedness by deluging the planet with water. He told Noah to construct an ark in order to preserve himself, his family, and representatives of the animal world through this great Flood. God told Noah to make the ark 300 cubits long, 50 cubits wide, and 30 cubits high. (Genesis 6:15) According to one conservative estimate, this would make the ark about 438 feet [134 m] long, 73 feet [22 m] wide, and 44 feet [13 m] high.* It thus had a gross volume of some 1,400,000 cubic feet [40,000 cu m].

    The Ark’s Design

    The ark was constructed with three decks, which gave it added strength and provided a total floor space of about 96,000 square feet [8,900 sq m]. It was built of resinous—and thus water-resistant—wood, possibly cypress, and was sealed inside and outside with tar. (Genesis 6:14-16) We are not told how Noah fastened the timbers together. But even before relating the Flood account, the Bible mentions forgers of copper and iron tools. (Genesis 4:22) In any case, to this day wooden drive pins known as treenails are used to build some wooden ships.

    The ark had internal compartments, a door in its side, and a one-cubit-high tsoʹhar, which may have been a gabled roof, possibly having openings below it for ventilation and light. The Genesis account makes no mention, however, of a keel or a prow or of any sails, oars, or rudders on the ark. In fact, the same Hebrew word for “ark” is used to describe the pitch-covered basket used by the mother of the infant Moses to keep him afloat in the waters of the Nile River.—Exodus 2:3, 10.

    Good Seakeeping

    The ark’s length was six times its width and ten times its height. Many modern ships have similar proportions, although for them the length-to-breadth ratio is chosen with regard to the power required to move them through the water. The ark, on the other hand, had only to float. How well would it have performed?

    The manner in which vessels respond to wind and waves is called seakeeping behavior. This too is related to a vessel’s proportions. The Bible describes the tremendous downpour that produced the Flood and also says that God later caused a wind to blow. (Genesis 7:11, 12, 17-20; 8:1) The Scriptures do not say how strong the waves and wind were, but likely both wind and waves would have been powerful and changeable, even as they can be today. The longer and harder the wind blows, the higher and farther apart are the waves. In addition, any seismic action could have produced strong waves.

    The ark’s proportions contributed to its stability, preventing it from capsizing. The ark was also designed to deal with the forces that could cause it to pitch lengthwise in heavy seas. Extreme pitching—when each wave lifts one end of the vessel and then allows it to plunge downward—would have been very uncomfortable for the people and animals on board. Pitching also puts heavy stresses on a vessel. The structure must be strong enough to resist the tendency to sag in the middle when large waves lift both ends of the vessel at the same time. Yet, when a large wave lifts the vessel at its midpoint, with nothing to support its ends, the bow and stern may bend downward. God told Noah to use a length-to-depth ratio of 10 to 1. Later shipbuilders would learn only by hard experience that such a ratio can accommodate these stresses.

    Safe and Comfortable

    Because of the ark’s chestlike shape, buoyancy—the force that makes a boat float—would have been uniform from end to end. Its weight too would have been uniform. Likely, Noah made sure that the cargo—including the animals and more than a year’s supply of food—was distributed evenly. Good weight distribution minimizes the additional stress that cargo places on a vessel’s structure. Thus, two main factors contributed to the ability of the ark and its passengers to ride out the global Flood safely—the ark’s divinely originated design and Jehovah’s protective care. God undoubtedly saw to it that the ark came to rest in a safe and suitable location.

    My thorough examination of this subject led me to conclude that what the Bible says about Noah’s ark is realistic and consistent with modern shipbuilding practice.”

    — Excerpt from Noah’s Ark and Naval Architecture — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY


    Now how would Noah, or Moses for that matter (since he recorded the account), know that such dimensions were ideally stable for a non-powered ship with that purpose in mind? (It only needed to float.)

    More evidence indicating a Divine origin!

    A modern scientific assessment by University students is up next.
     
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  6. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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  7. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    ark = ark of the covenant = chariot = temple = vehicle = holy grail = body

    it was a transmutation of turning water into wine, or a baser substance into one of spirit.
     
  8. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    From your first source:

    "assuming it was properly constructed—could have supported the mass of 70,000 animals."

    That is a huge assumption. There is no way to make a wooden vehicle that large that is "properly constructed". Second 70,000 animals is nowhere near enough. There are millions of species, worse yet there are still problems that refute that claim. Google search the concept of "population bottlenecks" to start. Just because an object would float for a very short period of time does not make it seaworthy.
     
  9. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    When people look for ways to 'explain' God and to 'explain' what he has done to suit some man-made idea about his activities, you end up with millions of useless ideas, none of which are right.

    Why not simply allow the Bible to tell its own story? Allow the Creator to be the all-powerful entity he says he is and learn from his instruction. There are so many people wanting the flood to mean something other than what it does, which leads to confusion and ambiguity.

    Jesus made clear reference to Noah and the flood as a teaching tool....an example of what was to happen again at the end of another wicked system of things.

    Look at the world of today and see how it is now in the same condition, morally and spiritually as it was in the pre-flood era. Mankind was influenced by supernatural creatures who materialized on earth and produced a race of gigantic freaks whom the Bible calls "the Nephilim" (literally those who cause others to fall down). These were obsessed with sex and were extremely violent in nature. God took drastic action to eliminate them and their rebellious fathers. (Genesis 6:4)

    But why did God choose to do things the way he did? Couldn't he just have saved Noah and destroyed all the ones who were acting wickedly? There was a reason for his actions that is not apparent to all who are familiar with the story. Throughout the OT are accounts of angels materializing human form in order to convey messages to God's earthly servants. It appears as if this ability is part of their creation, since the angels who materialized in Noah's day did not need God's permission to do so. Their intentions were not honorable. As creatures of flesh and with a rebellious nature, these became obsessed with carnal pleasures unnatural to them in their spirit form. Producing hybrid offspring created humans that God never intended to live. Their influence soon permeated all mankind living at that time, so that God lamented what had taken place.

    Genesis 6:5-6..."Consequently, Jehovah saw that man’s wickedness was great on the earth and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only bad all the time. 6 Jehovah regretted that he had made men on the earth, and his heart was saddened."

    So he planned his course of action in a way that would give the world a new beginning, take the ability to materialize away from rebel spirit creatures, and eliminate from existence all who failed to be righteous in their heart like Noah.

    Genesis 6:7-8...."So Jehovah said: “I am going to wipe men whom I have created off the surface of the ground, man together with domestic animals, creeping animals, and flying creatures of the heavens, for I regret that I have made them.” 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of Jehovah."

    He could also use the many aspects of that pre-flood era to illustrate what humans do when they follow their own plans instead of listening to God. It was not meant to solve mankind's problems completely, because the promised seed was still to come (Genesis 3:15).....but it slowed things down so that God's purpose could be worked out in his own time and way. The appearance of the "seed" (Messiah) was still a long way off.

    But why destroy the animals? What possible reason could God have to do that? As Creator, he has the right to take life as easily as he gives it. There is an account in the Bible where Jesus encountered two demon possessed men.....

    Matthew 8:28-34...."When he came to the other side into the region of the Gad·a·renesʹ, two demon-possessed men coming out from among the tombs met him. They were unusually fierce, so nobody had the courage to pass by on that road. 29 And look! they screamed, saying: “What have we to do with you, Son of God? Did you come here to torment us before the appointed time?” 30 A long way off from them, a herd of many swine was feeding. 31 So the demons began to plead with him, saying: “If you expel us, send us into the herd of swine.” 32 And he said to them: “Go!” With that they came out and went off into the swine, and look! the entire herd rushed over the precipice into the sea and died in the waters. 33 But the herders fled, and going into the city, they reported everything, including the account of the demon-possessed men. 34 And look! all the city turned out to meet Jesus, and when they saw him, they urged him to depart from their region."

    There are several points in this account that I believe relate to Noah's story.

    Firstly, the fierce nature of the demons and what they said to Jesus. "What have we to do with you, Son of God? Did you come here to torment us before the appointed time?”

    Even though the son of God was walking the earth, these demons had to enter into the bodies of other humans in order to carry out their trouble-making activities. This indicates that they could no longer materialize. The apostle Peter speaks of a condition of restraint that the demon fathers of the Nephilim faced upon their return to the spirit realm. (2 Peter 2:4) This is "Tartarus", sometimes wrongly translated as "hell".

    They identified Jesus straight away as the "Son of God" and asked if he had "come here to torment [them] before the appointed time?”

    So God's appointed time to deal with those rebellious "sons" was even yet future in Jesus' day.

    What they next requested was also interesting.
    "So the demons began to plead with him, saying: “If you expel us, send us into the herd of swine.” 32 And he said to them: “Go!” With that they came out and went off into the swine, and look! the entire herd rushed over the precipice into the sea and died in the waters."

    Demons can also possess animals. But why did Jesus allow them their request? Such an event would be spoken about by anyone who heard of it, as the account relates. According to the Law, swine were unclean animals to Jews and viewed with loathing. Whereas some other nations did not eat pork, to the Greeks it was a delicacy. Hence, likely as a result of Hellenistic influence, by the time of Jesus Christ’s earthly ministry, there were apparently quite a number of pigs in Palestine, particularly in the Decapolis region. The whole city responded positively to Jesus but they warned him to leave the area.

    So in Noah's time, perhaps by eliminating all possible life forms for the demons to inhabit, God forced them back to the spirit realm where he dealt with them appropriately....but he did not destroy them or their leader at this time. This rebellion had to run its full course so that precedents could be set for all time to come.

    In our day the demons are more active than ever spreading their immoral ways so that the earth is again "filled with violence" and sexual immorality. Sex and violence permeated the pre-flood world, just as they do today.

    How do we know this?

    In Revelation 12:7-12 we find an account about what was to occur just before Christ's return and as a result of his appointment as King of God's kingdom. His first act was to evict satan and his hordes from heaven. They did not go quietly.

    "And war broke out in heaven: Miʹcha·el and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them any longer in heaven. 9 So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him......On this account be glad, you heavens and you who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to you, having great anger, knowing that he has a short period of time.”

    This is why in these last days, things have become gradually worse and worse, both morally and spiritually.
    This world is obsessed with sex and violence once again. As their time grows shorter, their activities were going to intensify. We can see it with our own eyes.

    This why Jesus used the "days of Noah" as an example of what would occur again in another time period that heralded the end of another era. All the signs are there for those who are granted insight to "see" the reasons for why the world is in such a mess.

    Those who are "saved" through this event will have built their own spiritual "ark" with much effort and with the help of other "family" members, just as Noah did. He left us the perfect example of how to save ourselves....following Jehovah's instructions to the letter.

    "For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be. 38 For as they were in those days before the Flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, 39 and they took no note until the Flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be."

    There it is.....this is what I believe.
     
    #169 Deeje, Nov 30, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2017
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  10. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    Love is a catalyst that effects peoples lives directly.

    the bible speaks of how it effects humanity and was written by human hands.


    Judgment and Hope
    66 This is what the Lord says:

    “Heaven is my throne,
    and the earth is my footstool.
    Where is the house, you will build for me?
    Where will my resting place be?
    2 Has not my hand made all these things,
    and so they came into being?”
    declares the Lord.
     
  11. Ingledsva

    Ingledsva HEATHEN ALASKAN

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    That is a stupid article.

    ONE, - they would have had to house more than the "estimated 35,000," and even the doubled 70,000.

    Two, - it tells us this doubled number is for the "pairs" the Bible says went in. Apparently they missed the part about edible animals, sevens, etc.

    Three, - it tells us this estimate is by total interior mass. "Using the density of water and Archimedes' principle of buoyancy, they calculated the total mass the ark could contain without sinking." In other words squished to a mushy dead mass, one on top of the other to the top of the supposed Ark space. Thus not alive, no moving room, poop room, food room, people room, etc.

    Also, these "physics students" should have known that any boat filled to the top like that, - would roll-over with the first wave. Overloaded boats roll-over and sink all the time. Not that it would matter in this Ark case, as all it would be holding would be a squished bloody dead mass.

    *
     
  12. Looncall

    Looncall Well-Known Member

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    You have not addressed the lack of physical evidence that would certainly be left by such a flood.

    Unless you can account for that, no amount of scribblings by ignorant savages can bring your myth into the realm of things that have actually taken place.

    As far as your vile threats go, I "reck" them not a bean, as Chaucer would say.
     
  13. Kelly of the Phoenix

    Kelly of the Phoenix Well-Known Member

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    A myth, plagiarized from another myth that may or may not be based on some actual mundane local flood.

    I think that's called "handwaving".

    Alas, because of the source for this post involved, we'll never get answers. Just more handwaving.

    I want to see Ham's ark have to deal with its size and waves. I mean, since he's so accurate and all, what with the electrical outlets and air conditioning. I'm sure Ham's boat is seaworthy, right?

    It's just funny to me that Ham builds a replica for what should be the most epic boats in human history far inland with no chance in hell of seeing anywhere near enough water to float off the ground, much less ... well, it doesn't sail, so I don't know what term you'd use.

    What is there to discuss if you don't want to hear from critics?

    Kind of like Hurricane Katrina:

    N'Awlins: We didn't have time!
    Reality: The news was covering it for, like, a WEEK prior to landfall. Your city is the lowest point in the country, you call it a fishbowl, and you wonder why you shouldn't be there the moment a storm enters the Gulf?

    And yet boasts of how it proves the story is true. That's not how experimental replication works. That's not how any of this works.

    Just as mythological monsters were just people finding weird fossils and making up stories for them just like we do for constellations.

    For God, nothing is impossible!

    Except vanquishing death and illness.
    Except restoring beheaded people.
    Except making human #2 out of dirt as well.
    Except entering a public school system that forbids administration-led prayer.

    Jesus told us to shine our lights. Do you disagree with him that we have our own?

    There are Christian non-creationists. Your turn.

    If Jesus quoted C-3PO would you claim Star Wars is real?

    Faith in what? Ignorance? Avoidance? A book? Several books? Their authors? Their cultural biases?

    But we'd have evidence. It wouldn't be a guessing game anymore, exploited by people who nitpick bad logic.

    All humans are sinners and liars and such. Humans wrote this passage. Now what?

    Funny, I thought a Christian should believe in God, not a book. I'm pretty sure idolatry is frowned upon. True, that comes from the bible, which is filled to overflowing with hypocrisy about nearly all "thou shalt not"'s but, whatever.
     
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  14. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    "Ample Carrying Capacity. The passenger list of the ark was quite impressive. Besides Noah, his wife, his three sons, and their wives, living creatures “of every sort of flesh, two of each,” were to be taken aboard. “Male and female they will be. Of the flying creatures according to their kinds and of the domestic animals according to their kinds, of all moving animals of the ground according to their kinds, two of each will go in there to you to preserve them alive.” Of the clean beasts and fowls, seven of each kind were to be taken. A great quantity and variety of food for all these creatures, to last for more than a year, also had to be stowed away.—Ge 6:18-21; 7:2, 3.

    The “kinds” of animals selected had reference to the clear-cut and unalterable boundaries or limits set by the Creator, within which boundaries creatures are capable of breeding “according to their kinds.” It has been estimated by some that the hundreds of thousands of species of animals today could be reduced to a comparatively few family “kinds”—the horse kind and the cow kind, to mention but two. The breeding boundaries according to “kind” established by Jehovah were not and could not be crossed. With this in mind some investigators have said that, had there been as few as 43 “kinds” of mammals, 74 “kinds” of birds, and 10 “kinds” of reptiles in the ark, they could have produced the variety of species known today. Others have been more liberal in estimating that 72 “kinds” of quadrupeds and less than 200 bird “kinds” were all that were required. That the great variety of animal life known today could have come from inbreeding within so few “kinds” following the Flood is proved by the endless variety of humankind—short, tall, fat, thin, with countless variations in the color of hair, eyes, and skin—all of whom sprang from the one family of Noah.

    These estimates may seem too restrictive to some, especially since such sources as The Encyclopedia Americana indicate that there are upwards of 1,300,000 species of animals. (1977, Vol. 1, pp. 859-873) However, over 60 percent of these are insects. Breaking these figures down further, of the 24,000 amphibians, reptiles, birds, and mammals, 10,000 are birds, 9,000 are reptiles and amphibians, many of which could have survived outside the ark, and only 5,000 are mammals, including whales and porpoises, which would have also remained outside the ark. Other researchers estimate that there are only about 290 species of land mammals larger than sheep and about 1,360 smaller than rats. (The Deluge Story in Stone, by B. C. Nelson, 1949, p. 156; The Flood in the Light of the Bible, Geology, and Archaeology, by A. M. Rehwinkel, 1957, p. 69) So, even if estimates are based on these expanded figures, the ark could easily have accommodated a pair of all these animals.

    Five months after the Deluge began, “the ark came to rest on the mountains of Ararat,” not likely, however, atop the uppermost peak (nearly 5,165 m; 16,950 ft), but on suitable terrain where everyone aboard lived comfortably for some months more. Finally, after a year and ten days from the time the Deluge began, the door again was opened and all aboard disembarked.—Ge 7:11; 8:4, 14."


    -- Excerpt taken from Ark — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

    "a squished bloody dead mass"???

    Since we are told this Flood had a Divine origin, it always amazes me how skeptics reason that God apparently didn't exhibit any control and protection of the Ark & its contents during the Flood.
     
    #174 Hockeycowboy, Nov 30, 2017
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  15. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    No such thing. There are those who call themselves Christians who wouldn't have a clue what they believe and don't care anyway.

    Evidence is overrated IMO. It can be grossly misinterpreted. Faith takes more courage. It shows God what we are made of. (Hebrews 11:1)

    Human secretaries wrote what God inspired them to write. You don't have to believe it......simple.

    Is there a reason why we can't believe in both? I never thought it was an "either/or" scenario. God wrote instructions for the human race knowing that we are lousy at Chinese whispers. He preserves the writings down through thousands of years of time, despite many attempts by his enemies (and even the church itself) to keep it out of the hands of the people or to eliminate it from existence...and yet it is still here, teaching those who want to be taught by it. Go figure. :shrug:
     
  16. QuestioningMind

    QuestioningMind Well-Known Member

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    What a silly story. Why the heck did this all -powerful God force Noah to spend months wasting his time and effort building a huge boat big enough to hold a pair of every animal on the planet? This is the exact same God who originally snapped his metaphorical fingers and created every single animal on the planet in a fraction of a single day. Why didn't he have Noah just build a boat big enough to hold him and his family and once the water receded just snap his metaphorical fingers again and create a whole new batch of animals? It's a question that no one has been able to answer for me since I first started asking it when I was 7 or 8 years old.
     
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  17. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Post #169 answers many of your questions. Perhaps you closed your mind when you were 7 or 8 years old and never opened it again? Closed mindedness never gets to the bottom of anything. Opening our minds to possibilities that we may have dismissed decades ago, on further investigation may enlighten us about many things. You should try it. :)

    Creation was not done with a snap of anyone's fingers. It was a slow and very deliberate process taking thousands if not millions of years. The earth itself is perhaps billions of years old. Genesis allows for this. Creation is not as cut and dried as many assume.
     
  18. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    If one has an open mind and investigates this myth it soon becomes obvious that it never happened. You appear to be describing yourself when you talk about people having a close mind.

    Are you curious to learn how we know that there was no flood? Or is your mind closed?
     
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  19. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    In Bible speak, 'so to speak', it speaks of ' kinds ' meaning that there is variety within the species.
    The variety would Not be necessary, but just a representation within each ' kind '.

    I saw a TV documentary using a bathtub with a miniature exact reproduction of the Ark.
    No matter how much the water was churned and whipped up they could Not topple the Ark.
    Also, since all the Ark had to do was float it did Not have to be seaworthy for steering to go anywhere.
     
  20. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Yipes, Noah & sons spend Not months but many 'decades' building that Ark. ( could easily have been 50 'years' )
    There was No need to to create a who new batch of animals Nor new humans.
    God purpose of Genesis 1:28 is that we all be descendants from father Adam and mother Eve.
    No need for God to change his purpose, but to protect the righteous on Earth.
    Not every animal pair, but pairs within the animal ' kinds ' so such variety at that time would Not be necessary.
    The Bible does Not say how long each creative day was, nor does it say if each of the creative days were of the same length of time, or differing lengths of time. The word ' day ' in Scripture has shades of meaning.
    For example: all the creative days are summed up by the word ' day ' at Genesis 2:4.
     
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