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Featured For Christians Only: The Big Picture

Discussion in 'Same Faith Debates' started by Deeje, Jul 3, 2019.

  1. LightofTruth

    LightofTruth Well-Known Member

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    There was a Church of God in the O.T. just as there is a Church of God today. And just as today, the Church was made up of both the wheat and tare. Job was wheat and the Satan was the tares.

    To come in the presence of God refers to going to the temple to worship Him. When Job went to worship God the tares went too.

    Satan was not in heaven but was assembled right there at the Temple just as the sons of God were, but the tares were actually the children of the devil because they were evil in heart.

    To be a child of the devil refers to having an evil mischievous heart. The one who allow their flesh to rule over them rather than follow God's way.
     
  2. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    Ok, but can you explain who was here on earth, before Adam and Eve were created?
     
  3. Darkforbid

    Darkforbid Well-Known Member

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    Job, the oldest book included in the bible is prose, it's known to be ketuvim ("Writings") with Alfred lord Tennyson calling it "the greatest poem of ancient and modern times"
     
  4. Darkforbid

    Darkforbid Well-Known Member

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    Yep, the dirt of the earth. A view common at the time for humans that hadn't embraced civilization often seen as soulless life
     
  5. Darkforbid

    Darkforbid Well-Known Member

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    Sorry didn't see this until now, you can delete my posts if you like
     
  6. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    Its not that old.

    Book of Job - Wikipedia

    Job appears in the 6th-century BCE book of Ezekiel as a man of antiquity renowned for his righteousness, and the author of the Book of Job has apparently chosen this legendary hero for his parable.

    Rabbinic tradition ascribes it to Moses, but scholars generally agree that it was written between the 7th and 4th centuries BCE, with the 6th century BCE as the most likely period for various reasons.

    The anonymous author was almost certainly an Israelite, although he has set his story outside Israel, in southern Edom or northern Arabia, and makes allusion to places as far apart as Mesopotamia and Egypt.

    The language of Job stands out for its conservative spelling and for its exceptionally large number of words and forms not found elsewhere in the Bible.[24] The 12th century Jewish scholar Ibn Ezra concluded that the book must have been written in some other language and translated into Hebrew, and many later scholars down to the 20th century looked for an Aramaic, Arabic or Edomite original, but a close analysis suggests that the foreign words and foreign-looking forms are literary affectations designed to lend authenticity to the book's distant setting.
     
  7. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    Nope.. Agriculture in Sumer dates to 10-12,000 years ago.. Long before Adam and Eve. They already had tools, cuneiform writing, sailboats.. The Mesopotamians were the real deal.
     
  8. Earthling

    Earthling David Henson

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    Are you trying to establish that the literal serpent is man's evil heart, a beast of the field? Also, what makes you think that being a god necessarily constitutes wisdom?
     
  9. SugarOcean

    SugarOcean ¡pɹᴉǝM ʎɐʇS

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    I read your faith profile too.
    You identify as a Jehovah Witness.
    JW's don't believe Jesus was divine.
    The 11 Beliefs You Should Know about Jehovah's Witnesses When They Knock at the Door

    You should leave your cult and find Christ! Christians here will be surprised to find what Deeje is taught as a JW.

    JW.Org (Includes sound file)
    Who Go to Heaven?

    You've already made up your mind that you're an avid Bible reader. But you don't think!
    You read but you don't study! And as a JW there is a reason for that.

    “Thus the Bible is an organizational book and belongs to the Christian congregation as an organization, not to individuals, regardless of how sincerely they may believe that they can interpret the Bible. For this reason the Bible cannot be properly understood without Jehovah’s visible organization in mind.”The Watchtower, October 1, 1967, p. 587

    “We all need help to understand the Bible, and we cannot find the Scriptural guidance we need outside the ‘faithful and discreet slave’ organization.”The Watchtower,February 15, 1981, p. 19
    Source & more reading: Jehovah’s Witness View of Bible Study

    That's the problem with most people who call themselves Christian.
    Their idolatry is, they believe in the bible! And have no idea how it came to be. Or what it actually says.

    You'll not read that because I'm on ignore , per your post. That's fine. It tells me you're not ready to learn anything. And you're afraid of the truth.
    And it tells me also that you are false.

    You're not an avid bible student or you'd know everything I said was absolutely biblical. I say this for the benefit of others who may read me.

    Some people who are nominal Christians rather to simply accept what is written, without thinking of what is being said.
    That's why many people dislike Christians.
    Because those who claim to be Fundamentalists especially believe absolutely word for word all scripture as written. They don't realize it isn't that easy, that simple, to understand. The study of Hermeneutics helps a great deal to learn what the bible means and what it says.
    There are people who actually think God wrote the bible. Seriously.
    When in truth over 40 different people are responsible in their writings for what ultimately became the canonized scripture. Learning how the bible came to be is called the study of Bibliology.

    Any Christian would do themselves a great service to begin investigation of those fields.


    I wish you find Christ and therein find peace.
    But you won't read that either.

    *edited to add information links re: JW's*
     
    #29 SugarOcean, Jul 4, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2019
  10. SugarOcean

    SugarOcean ¡pɹᴉǝM ʎɐʇS

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    For information purposes for the Christians here: The man in that video is not a pastor.
    Jordan Bernt Peterson, the speaker in the video, is a Canadian clinical psychologist and a professor of psychology at the University of Toronto.
    Jordan Peterson | Home
     
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  11. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Mostly because there are so many who identify as "Christians" who don't think they need to hear anything because they already know it all. Asking them about the big picture, I am hoping will prompt them to examine what they already believe about what it means to be a "Christian". What is the real destination? Where do we end up? In heaven or on earth? How does our reconciliation with God take place?

    I am guessing from your response that you were a JW at one time. Yet I sense no hostility in your tone (unlike other here). "Knowing Jehovah and the one he sent forth" means becoming a disciple of Jesus Christ....Jesus is the "way, the truth and the life"....correct?
    If we truly "know" Jehovah and his son. then "doing the will of the Father" is paramount. (Matthew 7:21-23)

    We have a common enemy who is working overtime to misrepresent both of them and presenting his 'people' in a bad light (as he always has).

    Two things for me are certain....
    1) you cannot worship Jehovah as a committed Christian...alone, or in isolation. (Hebrews 10:24-25)
    There is a "faithful and discreet slave" and we have to find him and "feed at his table. (Matthew 24:45)

    2) The 'will of the Father' involves the last command that Jesus left for his disciples. (Matthew 28:19-20) Which means that just as Christ and his disciples preached, so should we. (Matthew 10:11-15) Preaching the good news about God's Kingdom was a command, not a recommendation. It was going to be done in "all the inhabited earth as a witness to all the nations", right up to "the end". (Matthew 24:14; Acts 20:20)
    Most of those who identify as Christians have no real idea of what God's Kingdom is....so how can they tell others about it?

    Jehovah has always had his "people"...a collective "nation" through whom he guides them by means of appointed shepherds. Those shepherds are as human as Christ's own apostles were....'warts and all', they try their best to fulfill their assignment. But human imperfection aside, God will still use them to accomplish his will. He treasures his people and appreciates their efforts to keep trying to find the sheep. Perfection is sometimes expected, but not possible at present....but its coming.

    Not one of the sheep will be missing....because it isn't us doing this work...Jehovah's spirit is working through imperfect 'earthen vessels' to accomplish his purpose. The "many" are never going to see the "obvious approach" of what is foretold, because of what Paul said in 2 Thessalonians 1:6-9...(also Matthew 24:37-39)

    "This takes into account that it is righteous on God’s part to repay tribulation to those who make tribulation for you. 7 But you who suffer tribulation will be given relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels 8 in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance on those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus. 9 These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction from before the Lord and from the glory of his strength".

    Who is God's vengeance expressed towards? "Those who do not know God" (because they don't want to know him) and those who know but "do not obey the good news"....so again the issue of disobedience rears its head. as it does right throughout the whole Bible. It started in Eden and continues to this day....so many people just don't get it. Its a simple matter of just doing what God and his Christ tell us to do....following the guidance of the imperfect men that he has always relied on to shepherd his people. And if they fail to carry out their assignment, they will answer to him, not us. (Hebrews 13:17) If we get that, then we won't get all bent out of shape if they aren't perfect or if they get things wrong at times. Jehovah will see to it that what needs addressing will be addressed in his own time and way. "Patience, faith, peace and long suffering" are fruits of God's spirit. All very necessary when dealing with humans who are as imperfect as we are.

    I understand....but we have to be "doing the will of the father" to even be in contention. You can't win the race if you're not even running.....and if you are running, it has to be according to the rules, which we didn't make.

    If there are those who do "lord it over others" or are being "righteous overmuch", do we imagine that if we have see that trend in others or in ourselves, that God hasn't noticed? All we can do is our best because its all Jehovah asks of us. He knows what our best is.....we are not to judge others in that respect....are we?
     
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  12. Enoch07

    Enoch07 It's all a sick freaking joke.
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    Hell doesn't exist as a place.

    God didn't let Satan live here on Earth. He is bound in chains in Heaven until the time when Revelations speaks of.

    The fallen angels on the other hand were allowed to exist because of free will.

    Free will, but they'll get dealt with.

    He will.

    Not a fan of predestination or predetermination.

    Just because the Lord wills governs all doesn't mean it was predecided.

    No everything that happens operates within Gods will. Big difference, but easy to confuse.

    Not a fan of the Rosecrucian theory that everything and everyone is God. We came from God do yeah we are a part of Him in that regard, but we are not God ourselves, neither are any of His angels.

    We do it else indecision or changing of decisions wouldn't be a thing.

    That's a good reason to not anthropomorphize God. Blasphemy is a terrible thing.

    That's what what she gets for disobeying. Lot didn't have time for the rule of thumb. ;)
    Wouldn't it had been amazing if even with the Pharoah's heart hardened, he still found the kindness to release all those slaves? He had a choice he chose to hold on to hatred and bitterness.

    Ok go walk it then, with a couple hundred other people with nothing but the clothes on your back. No supplies, no survival skills, and no GPS. You seriously underestimate how hard it is to travel barren lands by foot with no knowledge of the surrounding area.

    It takes a lot of food and water to travel even 100 miles on foot with a couple hundred of people. So yea they had to stop for months or even years at a time to gather the supplies they needed just to travel what we modern folk would consider a short distance.
     
  13. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    There are other opinions.

    Jehovah's Witnesses believe that Jesus Christ began to rule in heaven as king of God's kingdom in October 1914, and that Satan was subsequently ousted from heaven to the earth, resulting in "woe" to humanity. They believe that Jesus rules invisibly, from heaven, perceived only as a series of "signs".
    Jehovah's Witnesses - Wikipedia
    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah_witness
     
  14. SugarOcean

    SugarOcean ¡pɹᴉǝM ʎɐʇS

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    Support all that with scripture please.



    My question wasn't to the future. My question asked why didn't God kill them at the time they rebelled.


    You aren't asked to be a fan. What is spoken of is in scripture. Which isn't easy to confuse if one reads scripture. What Does the Bible Say About Predestination?



    I'm not Rosecrucian. :) I'm Christian.


    You should read the bible. Your post to this point proves you have not. The rest of your remarks are not worthy of entertaining as you are not Christian nor do you know the bible. A fan of contradicting scripture with nonsense is a very sad thing.
     
  15. Earthling

    Earthling David Henson

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    You don't remember me? I haven't posted in a few months. We have had many conversations. I have never been a JW, but I have studied with them, have family that are and am myself heavily influenced by their teachings. I pretty much agree with everything you said, as I usually do.
     
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  16. Enoch07

    Enoch07 It's all a sick freaking joke.
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    You can't prove a negative. I can't quote scripture that days hell is NOT a place.

    Satan bound in chains here:

    Revelations 20: 1-3

    1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

    2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

    3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

    The fallen angels are allowed to live because that is their punishment. To live here on earth with the apes, not allowed to return to Heaven ever again. Here:

    Peter 2:4

    4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

    Here hell is used in the regards of to be cut off from God and His presence. They await here on Earth with us to think a out what they have done. Then to be judged at the end times when they will be blotted out like all unrepentant sinners.


    Answered above.

    The problem with predestination is it let's people just do whatever they want with no consequence. Why take the hard road if I'm predestined to fail? Why not take the easy route if I am predestined to rejoin in Heaven regardless of what I do. No, these defy Jesus teachings in every way.

    Rosecrucians are a sect of Christianity. A little known sect but still.

    I agree with the scripture, that we are a part of and from God. But that doesn't mean we are God or that all Gods creations are God either.

    The whole notion defies the need Jesus for salvation. That's about anti-Christian as you can get.
     
  17. SugarOcean

    SugarOcean ¡pɹᴉǝM ʎɐʇS

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    Ah, but that's not all that you stated and that I asked for scriptural proof to support.
    You said: "Hell doesn't exist as a place.

    God didn't let Satan live here on Earth. He is bound in chains in Heaven until the time when Revelations speaks of.

    The fallen angels on the other hand were allowed to exist because of free will."

    You made three separate statements there. You're not even allowed to be in this thread. Christians only.
    You are not a Christian per your profile.
    You can opine elsewhere, but here you are not allowed. And when you make statements like the above, you are responsible for proving it with scripture. Which you can't.

    That is all.
    Bye.
     
  18. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Sorry Earthling, I have had conversations with so many.....and age...you know, the memory is not as good as it used to be. :oops:

    I am pleased that you can agree with us. Why have you never taken the plunge? Just curious....?
     
  19. Enoch07

    Enoch07 It's all a sick freaking joke.
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    Yeup, and I supported all 3 statements which apparently you ignored and cherry picked the explanation as to why I can't quote one bit of scripture. Simply because it is impossible to exist.

    I am Christian. Just a non-demonational Christian. If you want to get specific. I am a Christian based theistic rationalist. Just like the founders of the U.S.

    I am. Trust me I take a lot of flak from....others....who do Satans work here and twist the meaning of the Bible beyond comprehension.
     
    #39 Enoch07, Jul 4, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2019
  20. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Now, hang on a minute.....I think you have your times muddled up. God had a nation, not a church in ancient times. The members of this nation were not like the Christians at all. They were born into it...and they had an obligation to keep God's laws because they were part of a nation that willingly accepted the terms of a legal agreement made with their forefathers......Christians had to choose to become part of his "church" which means that they chose to obey God's laws of their own free will.

    Job lived before the time of Israel's release from slavery in Egypt. He was not an Israelite, but a relative of Abraham, both being descendants of Shem.

    Since this was before God's covenant with Abraham came into effect with his descendants through Isaac and Jacob, there was no Temple, because there was no official nation of Israel then.

    Job was an oriental living in a place called Uz, which the Bible indicates was probably East of the Promised Land and near Edom, somewhere in Northern Arabia. Job never went to a temple. He was a Patriarch who was head of his family and served as a priest for them....hence why he offered sacrifices on their behalf.

    What??? If satan was a rebel angel, then he originated in heaven. The account in Job has him entering his station among the faithful angels. He was not kicked out of heaven until Jesus became King of God's Kingdom. (Daniel 7:13-14) Satan's eviction was Christ's first act as God's newly appointed King......it marked the beginning of the 'last days' for this present world system...the reason why the wickedness on earth took a turn for the worst with the outbreak of the First World War and ushering in an age where peace has vanished. The period of time that Daniel calls "the time of the end". (Daniel 12:4, 9-10)

    In the Revelation given to the apostle John at the end of the first century, the eviction of satan and his demons from heaven was yet future. (Revelation 12:7-12)

    It isn't just mischievous, but means having the same lying, deceitful disposition as the devil....whom Jesus said was a "manslayer when he began". He deceived the woman into disobedience knowing full well that it carried the death penalty. He lied to her about that so that she would sin against God. He wanted the humans to worship him. The only way to do that was to separate them from their God. He hasn't changed his tactics.
     
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