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Featured For Christians Only: The Big Picture

Discussion in 'Same Faith Debates' started by Deeje, Jul 3, 2019.

  1. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    How many people are staring at a few dead pixels in one corner of the big picture and making lasting decisions about their future without all the information?

    Here is what I have come to appreciate in my studies.....

    The Bible presents one story from Genesis to Revelation.....what we lost in the beginning is restored at the end.....yet so many people do not connect all the dots.
    They see the "Old Testament" and "New Testament" as one thing superseded by the other, when nothing could be further from the truth. Both are complementary because all are contained in one 'library'.....we need the whole book. You cannot understand the Greek scriptures without the Hebrew scriptures. You can't understand the end without a knowledge of the beginning.

    We are taken from the creation in Genesis....to the fall of man in Eden, and God having to deal with rebellion of his free willed creatures in both realms. Since the first rebel was not human, the rebellion in heaven would have had more dramatic ramifications than anything that happened on earth, God had to respond straight way....and he did with a prophesy in Genesis 3:15. In this rather obscure prophesy was the key to undoing all the damage that the devil had caused, but much of it it was not understood until the time of Jesus. It has continued to unfold down to the present as more and more details are revealed.

    A powerful spirit creature hijacked the human race by deception, baiting a trap for them and unknown to the pair, holding them to ransom, substituting himself as their god. Having lost their relationship with their Creator the deceiver stepped in to lead them even further astray. And such is the nature of a lengthy captivity, that the captives can sometimes come to see their captor as a friend rather than as an enemy, especially if he provides what they want.

    e.g. If a very young child is kidnapped by a man who pretends to be his father and he grows up with that one teaching him all he knows and catering to his wants, what will the child come to conclude? That his captor is his real father and he might grow up thinking that his 'fathers' ways are OK, since it is all he has ever known and he was never raised to question his 'father's' values.

    When we see the human race in this situation, its not hard to see that captivity can be embraced as a living reality....never questioned and accepted as 'normal'. The devil becomes the substitute god and ruler of mankind as the Bible confirms...."the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one" (1 John 5:19) but not many see the resulting wickedness as something unusual.

    So, what happens if the real father never stopped looking for his son, and one day the son, now grown, discovered that the person he thought was his father, was an imposter? The son is going to set out to find his real father...isn't he? Isn't that what anyone would do if they found out that their whole life was a lie? And that their real father was out there somewhere, missing them, still searching for them? But where would he start looking?

    In the Bible's big picture...how is the real Father found and the happy reunion foretold in Revelation, brought about? (Revelation 21:2-4)

    What does the Bible say about this?

    Anyone have thoughts on this?
     
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  2. LightofTruth

    LightofTruth Well-Known Member

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    [

    Where does the Scripture teach that God's angels in heaven above ever rebelled or that they have free will to sin if they desire?
     
  3. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    I guess if you knew your Bible you would be able to answer that question for yourself, but seeing as how you don't....

    So who is identified as the "original serpent" in Genesis by the apostle John in his Revelation?
    Revelation 20:1-3.....remember that this Revelation is from God through Jesus Christ....(Revelation 1:1)

    "And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven with the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. 2 He seized the dragon, the original serpent, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for 1,000 years. 3 And he hurled him into the abyss and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not mislead the nations anymore until the 1,000 years were ended. After this he must be released for a little while"

    So how did the angel who became satan get to be in the garden in the first place?

    Ezekiel 28, in addressing the King of Tyre who was acting like that first rebel, God said....
    You were the model of perfection,
    Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.

    13 You were in Eʹden, the garden of God.

    You were adorned with every precious stone . . . .

    14 I assigned you as the anointed covering cherub.


    You were on the holy mountain of God, and you walked about among fiery stones.

    15 You were faultless in your ways from the day you were created

    Until unrighteousness was found in you. . . .


    You became filled with violence, and you began to sin.

    So I will cast you out as profane from the mountain of God and destroy you,

    O covering cherub, away from the stones of fire.

    17 Your heart became haughty because of your beauty.


    You corrupted your wisdom because of your own glorious splendor

    I will throw you down to the earth.


    I will make you a spectacle before kings."


    So unless you think that the King of Tyre was a covering cherub in the garden of Eden, this is describing the rebellion of a once perfect spirit creature.

    Can I ask you where, (from your belief system,) you think the devil came from? (will I be sorry I asked?) Your answer must come from the scriptures.
     
  4. SugarOcean

    SugarOcean ¡pɹᴉǝM ʎɐʇS

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    You should have known when you said, for Christians only, that this would be a herald for the enemies disciples. The most vocal responded first.

    The enemy, Lucifer, ha Satan, is lord of this world, prince of this world, by God's will.
    God cast his first and most intelligent and beautiful angel and 1/3rd of the hosts , angels, down to the newborn earth before he created the first humans.

    God planted the tree of Gnosis, knowledge, that if consumed would make the first two humans created of God to have the mind of God. "they have become like us"(the royal plural form, "us", "we").
    What was wrong with having the mind of God? The knowledge of good and evil? Why did that damn all generations after for the sins of the father , Adam? When the scriptures tell us the sins of the father(mortal father) do not pass to the son. Each person is answerable for their own sins.

    Why then, when sin entered the world through Adam, don't feel like looking up the passage but if you know your bible you know them, did his sin pass to us? When if God hadn't planted that forbidden tree in the garden, being he is omniscient, and then instructed two people who had no knowledge of obedience and disobedience, because they had no knowledge of good and evil so as to make an informed choice to obey (good) or disobey (evil), were they punished for being newborns without consciousness to make an informed choice?

    Look to Job.
    Job lost everything but his life.
    Because God made a bet with the Devil.
    And then God replaced everything he let Job lose but in abundance. Yet, Job didn't get his lost family that he loved back.

    Why all that? Why all this? Why did God, who was Jesus, "you shall name him Emmanuel, which means, God with us", send himself so he could die and change the rules he had created in the beginning. Why was it all those eons later called grace? Grace that saves us from what God intended us to be.
    Why didn't God forgive Adam and Eve for being misled by the most intelligent and yet fallen angel? That one that rebelled, sinned in Heaven? That God let to live after leading a war with 1/3rd of the angels of Heaven behind him?
    If God casts humans into Hell forever for our sins, why did God let Satan and 1/3rd of the fallen angels live on earth until the end of days comes? Why are they allowed to exist and do evil here now? Why didn't God kill them for their sins against him personally? Questioning his right to be God, because Satan thought he could do a better job.

    Because , everything that happens is predestined, predetermined by God.
    Why? Because everything that happens is according to God's will and is a result of his zeal for his own glory.
    Did you know?
    When all things that exist are created by God, and of God, that there can be no thing that is not God?
    That means God is the Devil.
    Isaiah 45:7

    https://www.google.com/search?clien...r+gods+glory&sourceid=opera&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

    We think we make our choices in life. Believer and atheist alike.
    No. Proverbs 16:9

    Atheists claim there is no proof of God. They're unconscious. Everything that exists is proof of a creator of it. Call it God or licorice. It is creator and created .

    Ever notice? The God of the bible if human would be on death row as a serial killer?

    We're to aspire to higher consciousness and better behavior so as to please that which drowned the entire world but for a family of 8.Because the patriarch of that family was deemed a righteous man. But he was a drunk.

    Sodom and Gomorrah and their many sins were burned to the ground by fire and brimstone sent by God. Only one family of three survived because the patriarch was judged by God to be the only righteous man in the two towns.

    Lot's wife perished when the family of four fled the cities before they were destroyed. She looked back and was turned to a pillar of salt. That left Lot and his two daughters.
    Whom he later had sex with. Incest.

    Those deemed righteous by God by God's standard of sin weren't.
    God's Hebrew hit squad, his Hebrew army, slaughtered entire communities and wiped out nations. He ordered pregnant women were to have their unborn ripped from the womb.
    Moses painted the door frame of the Hebrew huts in Egypt with lamb's blood so as to show God's death angel which first born babies he wasn't to kill. And this after God told Moses to go to Egypt and tell the Pharaoh to let his (Hebrew) people go.

    But prior to Moses leaving God told Moses that he would harden Pharaoh's heart so that he would not listen. And then because Pharaoh was stubborn God sent ten plagues upon Egypt and its people. Hebrew and Egyptian suffered alike.
    Punishment for Pharaoh's being obstinate ? When God hardened Pharaoh's heart so he wouldn't let God's people go?

    It was to show God was more powerful than the pantheon of god's and goddesses the Egyptians worshiped. Every plague fell upon a domain an Egyptian god or goddess controlled. The people suffered and their god's and goddesses did nothing to stop it.

    By the time it was over the Egyptians gave the Hebrews plenty of gold just to leave Egypt. And take their God with them.
    They wandered in the desert for 40 years looking for their holy land. Following a light at night , God's light.
    How far was it really? From Egypt to the holy land? Where Israel is now? 380 miles! Takes 11 days to walk.
    But 40 years?
    That's one generation of time.

    The Bible is written as poetry, in allegory, simile, metaphor, parable, and axiom.
    God does not reside in structures built by human hands.
    Then why was the holy of hollies where God dwelt off limits to all but anointed Hebrew priests?

    If you want to find God, really, read between the lines.:)
     
    #4 SugarOcean, Jul 4, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2019
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  5. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    *Checks to see if the responder is a Christian*...says they are....but wow! :eek: That is the greatest misunderstood piece of hateful slander I think I have ever seen against God in my lifetime...and from a Christian!?

    I could respond to every single point in that post and show you how misguided your response is, but what would be the point? I have heard some verbal poison against God in my time on internet forums, but that was something I would expect to read from a committed atheist.

    Gotta put you on ignore, sorry. That just made me feel sick.
     
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  6. Kangaroo Feathers

    Kangaroo Feathers Yea, it is written in the Book of Cyril...

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    :rolleyes:
     
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  7. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    The river of Babylon didn't dry up.
     
  8. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Cyrus "dried up the waters" by diverting them so that the moat protecting the city was easily crossed. You really should check your facts before posting your usual negative stuff with no backup.

    "The Bible prophecies relating to Cyrus’ conquest of Babylon foretold that its riverswould be dried up and its gates left unshut, that there would be a sudden invasion of the city and a lack of resistance on the part of Babylon’s soldiers. (Isa 44:27;45:1, 2; Jer 50:35-38; 51:30-32)

    Herodotus describes a deep, wide moat encompassing Babylon, relating that numerous bronze (or copper) gates provided entrance through the interior walls along the Euphrates River, which bisected the city. Laying siege to the city, according to Herodotus (I, 191, 192), Cyrus went “drawing off the river by a canal into the lake [the artificial lake said to have been made earlier by Queen Nitocris], which was till now a marsh, he made the stream to sink till its former channel could be forded. When this happened, the Persians who were posted with this intent made their way into Babylon by the channel of the Euphrates, which had now sunk about to the height of the middle of a man’s thigh.

    Now if the Babylonians had known beforehand or learnt what Cyrus was planning, they would have suffered the Persians to enter the city and brought them to a miserable end; for then they would have shut all the gates that opened on the river and themselves mounted up on to the walls that ran along the river banks, and so caught their enemies as in a trap. But as it was, the Persians were upon them unawares, and by reason of the great size of the city—so say those who dwell there—those in the outer parts of it were overcome, yet the dwellers in the middle part knew nothing of it; all this time they were dancing and making merry at a festival . . . till they learnt the truth but too well. [Compare Da 5:1-4, 30; Jer 50:24; 51:31, 32.]

    Thus was Babylon then for the first time taken.”

    Cyrus — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY
     
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  9. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    The Euphrates runs high with spring rains and snowmelt... There's less water in the Summer and Fall months so the water level slows and falls. There have always been marshes.. You have heard of the Marsh Arabs??? Wilfred Thesiger used to come to Arabia and lecture now an again. They have lived there about 6,000 years. DNA indicates they were Sumerian elite and at some point Arabs from the Eastern province married a lot of their women.
     
  10. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    Most prophecy was written after the fact like Isaiah and Jeremiah..
     
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  11. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    There you go again...who said? You? Back up what you say or all you are offering is your own opinion. Most prophesy is NOT written after the fact. If it was, it isn't prophesy......:rolleyes:
     
  12. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    That's why it was amended in the 5th century BC and later still. First you should learn what prophets do and what their purpose was. There were schools for prophets from the time of Samuel.
     
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  13. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    My question is this, What makes you think the rebellion was in heaven and not on earth?
     
  14. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    If satan had free access to heaven, to come and go as he pleased, and his rebellion was hatched when he saw the lower creatures to whom he could become a god, whilst he was stationed as a guardian in Eden, then his rebellion spanned both heaven and earth. With the account about Job we see satan there in heaven, bold as brass. (Job 1:6-7; Job 2:1-2) The demons are his minions. He is their leader and will suffer the same fate as he does. (Matthew 25:41)
     
  15. Earthling

    Earthling David Henson

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    I don't call myself a Christian for various reasons. But I would like to address your question because it fascinated me on some profound levels. The simple answer to your question, namely, "How is the real Father found and the happy reunion foretold in Revelation brought about" on a scope which, I might add, which transcends a scriptural snippet of Revelation 21:2-4, would simply be this. Through a great deal of death and destruction. But I suspect that isn't the answer you're looking for.

    I think I agree with pretty much everything you say but . . . well . . . that would be my answer.

    That you specify the question to "Christians" only, I think, is what fascinates me about your question. It shouldn't, but it does. I think it does because I've never looked for Jehovah due to something he can offer me. I don't see myself in the New System, as you and I would call it. That doesn't motivate me.

     
  16. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    A great deal of death and destruction is inevitable when a war is fought. That is what Armageddon is.....a war between God and the devil....his forces against God's forces. It is the war to end all wars because once this battle is won, victory means there will never be a satan or a rebel ever tolerated again. God's whole issue with the devil from the beginning was about sovereignty....God's right to set the rules.

    Satan said we would be better off without God telling us what to do. He said that we should be able to decide for ourselves what is good and what is bad. Was he right? Was God holding back something good from his children? Did God lie about the penalty? He allowed satan and those influenced by him, both in heaven and on earth to find out for themselves what that kind of freedom would result in....and here we are, on the brink of world chaos, having tried all manner of self rule unsuccessfully. The financial predictions are dire and those in democratic countries are making their feelings known. They are fed up with completely inadequate governments failing them at every turn.

    I believe that the reconciliation of man with God is the inevitable end result. It will end well for those who see the big picture and their place in it. But for those who don't want what God is offering....there is no alternative. (Matthew 7:13-14)

    Hebrews 11:6....
    "6 Moreover, without faith it is impossible to please God well, for whoever approaches God must believe that he is and that he becomes the rewarder of those earnestly seeking him."

    This I believe sums it up well.....we are designed to be incentive oriented. Without incentive, nothing is worth the effort. God is a rewarder.

    I do not know your Canadian speaker and I didn't watch all of that, but from what I did see, he appeared to make no allowance for sin as a factor in our failure. Jesus came to forgive sin and to remove it for good. I don't think people truly understand what a burden sin is in our physical and spiritual makeup. Once we are free of it and have had all our physical ailments healed, life each day will bring us joy. New challenges and new discoveries....I can't wait till this poor excuse for a life is over!

    The fulfilment of Revelation 21:2-4 is assured, but our place in that arrangement is not. God must be our father and he must recognise us as his child.....what a wonderful reunion I envisage! :)
     
    #16 Deeje, Jul 4, 2019
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  17. Dawnofhope

    Dawnofhope Veteran Member
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    ***Moderator Post: This thread is now moved to the same debates section. Please note the special rules that apply and only Christians can participate. Non-Christians participating risk violating rule 10.***
     
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  18. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Thank you.
     
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  19. Earthling

    Earthling David Henson

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    I agree completely.

    But you see, they are fed up because of what they aren't getting out of it, rather than anything else.

    Again. In the purest sense I agree with this, but as I said, the fact that you specified Christians only is what fascinated me about your post. Those seeing the big picture are, in your estimation, Christians. Everlasting life is granted to those seeking Jehovah God and the one whom he sent forth. If the Christians are the ones having found this why ask them for the big picture? To test the Christians seeing the big picture different than you see it? Or to inform those having not yet graduated to that point in their journey who might be witnessing the answer? I'm not criticizing, by the way. Either, I think, would be acceptable answers.

    Indeed. Knowing The Bible as you do the vindication of Jehovah God's rightful sovereignty is reward enough. That's what it is all about. The salvation of mankind is a side issue. A great one and an important one, for Jehovah's will is that everyone seek out the reward that the settling of the real issue will undoubtedly bring about, for it is His will that the meek inherit the Earth and live forever upon it.

    I think he may touch upon it later. I watched it yesterday but I can't remember. The video itself isn't important. It's a long one. I didn't expect you to watch it, it's just an aside. I think he is extremely interested in God, but he isn't well informed in scriptural accuracy, even though he has quite a few videos examining the Bible in great detail from a . . . philosophical or psychological perspective. That and his view of the Bible being probably influenced by mainstream apostate Christendom quells any interest that I have in those specific videos, but he is a remarkably intelligent person capable of thinking outside of the box. The "worldly" box, I suppose. The title of the video sort of encapsulated the jist of my response so I added it.

    In a sense I can relate to that excitement. I loath this system and long for it's demise . . . but . . . there are perhaps many who have yet to see it's obvious approach, and so I try to be as patient as I possibly can be.

    As do I. Keeping in mind that Moses envisaged the promised land but never stepped foot in it. To me this warrants a great deal of caution on my part not to lord it over others or be righteous over much. Fortunately, or perhaps unfortunately, depending, I suppose, upon your perspective, the latter portion of that position isn't particularly challenging to me personally, but there you have it.
     
    #19 Earthling, Jul 4, 2019
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  20. LightofTruth

    LightofTruth Well-Known Member

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    The original serpent was never cast out from heaven for rebellion. It was a beast of the field that could speak and was punished to spend the rest if its days on its belly eating dirt.

    The serpent is now a symbol of the lust of the flesh because that is what caused Adam and Eve to disobey God and eat the forbidden fruit. Eve saw that the fruit was PLEASANT to the EYES (lust of the eyes), Good for FOOD(lust of the flesh) DESIRED to make one wise, to be as gods (pride of life).

    There is no need for your imaginary Satan and devil because ALL sin and death is attributed to the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh, and the pride of life.

    Jesus called Judas a devil because Judas betrayed Jesus for money.
    Jesus called Peter Satan because Peter was savoring the things of man rather than God when Peter tried to stop Jesus from going to Jerusalem to suffer and die.

    The Jews correctly identify the serpent in the garden as man's evil inclination. They call man's evil heart the Yetzar Hara.

    And Jeremiah says that ABOVE ALL THINGS the heart of man is evil and desperately wicked.

    Your imaginary devil has nothing on man's evil heart because it is evil beyond ALL things.
     
    #20 LightofTruth, Jul 4, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2019
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