1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured For Christians ... a question I've had for a long time

Discussion in 'Religions Q&A' started by Vinayaka, Feb 13, 2021.

  1. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2009
    Messages:
    14,421
    Ratings:
    +2,394
    I am thinking about the healthy physical resurrection of both the just and unjust - Acts of the Apostles 24:15
    It is only the wicked who will be destroyed forever - Psalms 92:7; 104:35
    The unjust are Not the wicked. They are people who died without knowing about God's ways.
    The resurrection will give the unjust or unrighteous the opportunity to become just and righteous.

    A heavenly resurrection is for people like those of Daniel 7:18; Luke 22:28-30 and could include those of Matthew 22:30 .
     
  2. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2009
    Messages:
    14,421
    Ratings:
    +2,394
    I find only those classed as 'saints or holy ones' are granted immortality. Daniel chapter 7. They have heavenly life.
    Angels and humans are offered 'everlasting life' as long as they choose to obey God:
    Everlasting life in Heaven for angels, everlasting life on Earth for humans.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  3. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2017
    Messages:
    4,519
    Ratings:
    +1,253
    Religion:
    Itiswhatitis
    I believe the resurrection of the just comes first. Then later the resurrection when Jesus separates the sheep from goats.
     
  4. Musing Bassist

    Musing Bassist Mihi Quaestio Factus Sum

    Joined:
    May 18, 2014
    Messages:
    2,813
    Ratings:
    +1,387
    Religion:
    Ordinariate Catholic
    You can think whatever you like. But what you think and what historical Christian doctrine states are not the same thing. The immortality of the soul has been Christian doctrine since the beginning. The only people who claim otherwise are among a minority of (largely American) Protestants
     
  5. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2009
    Messages:
    14,421
    Ratings:
    +2,394
    I never read about physical Jesus having the capacity to walk through a shut door.
    I've read at John 20:19; John 20:26 that the ' resurrected Jesus ' came and appeared in a shut room. - Luke 24:13-31
    Since God resurrected Jesus back to his pre-human heavenly spirit body so Jesus would Not have to walk through a shut door.
     
  6. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2009
    Messages:
    14,421
    Ratings:
    +2,394
    I find the 'sheep and goats' are living people, Not resurrected people.- Matthew 25:31-33,37
    The figurative living sheep are the great crowd of Revelation 7:9 who come through the great tribulation alive - Revelation 7:14.
    Acts of the Apostles 24:15 lumps both the just and unjust together.
    To me the 'saints' come first having that first or earlier resurrection to heaven - Revelation 20:6; Revelation 2:10; Revelation 5:9-10.
     
  7. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2017
    Messages:
    4,519
    Ratings:
    +1,253
    Religion:
    Itiswhatitis
    Rev. 20:6 is the first resurrection of the saints. I believe Rev 20:12 is when Jesus separates sheep from goats.

    I'm sorry, me saying that the first resurrection is the resurrection of the just needs clarification ... because some people will be justified in the 2nd resurrection. So what I meant was the first resurrection when I said "resurrection of the just". Really it could just be called the first resurrection to be clear.

    Those are the two resurrections after that everything is finished. People who are justified will inherit the earth and live forever with immortal bodies. As far as I can see anyway.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  8. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2009
    Messages:
    14,421
    Ratings:
    +2,394
    I find Bible readers find that Adam did Not have an immortal soul. ALL of Adam was mortal.
    Adam went from non-life, to life, and returned back to non-life.
    Even Satan is mortal because Jesus will destroy wicked sinner Satan - Hebrews 2:14 B.
    Adam was a soul, Adam was a person. ALL of Adam died when Adam returned to the dust - Genesis 3:19
    A person can Not ' return ' to a place he never was before.
    The soul that sins dies - Ezekiel 18:4,20.
    The dead do Not know anything - Psalm 115:17; Isaiah 38:18; Ecclesiastes 9:5; John 11:11-14.
    We are to be in reverential fear because the ' soul can be killed ' according to Jesus at Matthew 10:28 B.
    So, the false doctrine of soul immortality began after the 1st century ended, after the Bible was completed.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  9. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2017
    Messages:
    24,893
    Ratings:
    +7,226
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    Can you point me to those verses?

    I believe that the everlasting life referred to in the Bible is the life of the soul, not the life of the body. Everlasting life is spiritual life, the life of the soul that is close to God.
     
  10. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2017
    Messages:
    24,893
    Ratings:
    +7,226
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    Please point me to the verses that actually say that.
     
  11. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2009
    Messages:
    14,421
    Ratings:
    +2,394
    Thank you for your reply.
    To me Revelation 20:12 is in connection to the dead, the dead as mentioned by Jesus at John 5:28-29.
    This resurrection setting takes place during Jesus millennial reign. No divisive nations existing at that time.
    To me those in the tombs are both the righteous and unrighteous - Acts of the Apostles 24:15.
    Basically, the ones who died last will be resurrected first, progressively back to the people of Genesis.
    The exception would be faithful Bible people of old coming back sooner.
    So, to have all of the just coming back first would be going back to Abel.
    Rather, as the just and unjust progressively returning the just could teach the unjust.
    Then, the unjust who become just could help with teaching other resurrected unjust ones.

    I don't find the sheep and the goats in the grave.
    The sheep and the goats are Not classed as: just and unjust but as: either just or wicked.
    Nations are gathered before Jesus - Matthew 25:31
    The nations stand on Earth with Jesus viewing the nations.The nations are Not in the grave.
    The goats are destroyed - Matthew 25:41 - No resurrection for the goats.
    The goats do Not live to see calendar Day One of Jesus' Millennial reign over Earth, but the sheep do.
     
  12. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2009
    Messages:
    14,421
    Ratings:
    +2,394
    Adam was a living soul - Genesis 2:7
    Adam did Not possess a soul, Adam did Not have a soul, rather Adam was a soul.
    Adam was from dust, it was Jesus who was from heaven - 1 Corinthians 15:47
    At death Adam become a dead soul returning to the dust where Adam started - Genesis 3:19
    Adam was Never offered immortality because Adam was told if you break God's law you would die - Genesis 2:17
    The immortal can Not die. If Adam could Not die it would have been useless to tell Adam he could die.
    The soul that sins dies - Ezekiel 18:4,20
    Adam started out a spiritual person, a soul that was close to God, with everlasting life in view to live forever on Earth.
    Adam chose to disobey God and thus forfeited his everlasting life.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
  13. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2017
    Messages:
    24,893
    Ratings:
    +7,226
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    According to Paul, there are two kinds of bodies, spiritual bodies and natural (physical) bodies.
    According to Paul, you will be raised as a spiritual body, not as a physical body.

    Paul said: "physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. These dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever." I believe that the Kingdom of God that Paul was referring to is in heaven so that means that the physical bodies that will die cannot exist in heaven. That is why you will get a spiritual body that can exist in heaven. "dying bodies have been transformed into bodies that will never die" are spiritual bodies.

    1 Corinthians 15:35-58 New Living Translation

    40 There are also bodies in the heavens and bodies on the earth. The glory of the heavenly bodies is different from the glory of the earthly bodies.

    44 They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies.

    50 What I am saying, dear brothers and sisters, is that our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. These dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever.

    51 But let me reveal to you a wonderful secret. We will not all die, but we will all be transformed!

    54 Then, when our dying bodies have been transformed into bodies that will never die,[c] this Scripture will be fulfilled: “Death is swallowed up in victory.[d]


    Read full chapter
     
  14. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2015
    Messages:
    7,463
    Ratings:
    +4,532
    Religion:
    Christian
    Staying youthful, about 25-ish, in perfect health....why not?
    There’s so much I’d love to do! See every corner of the world! Learn to play 50 instruments, perfectly! And other things....
    Like, meeting my ggggrandkids! Then my gggggrandkids! Then my ggggggrandkids! You get the idea.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  15. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2009
    Messages:
    14,060
    Ratings:
    +7,898
    Religion:
    Christian JW
    I want to know how people can believe that we all end up in heaven? [​IMG] .....that is not where God put us. He has a spiritual family in heaven already, and none of them needed to be mortal 'earthlings' before they became spirit creatures.

    God designed us humans as mortal physical beings who were placed on a material earth with material needs to sustain our lives. Spirit beings need no physical means to sustain their life....like food water and air....any excursion outside of spaceship earth, requires life support for us. Nothing that supports our lives is out there....not even on other planets in our own solar system.

    The resurrection was never supposed to happen because humankind were not originally designed to die. That's right..."mortal" does not mean that we have to die...only that we can under certain circumstances.

    Continuing life from the very beginning was conditional upon our obedience. Once the humans decided to test drive their free will in a way that God forbade them, everything went belly-up....death came as a result of that disobedience, as God had clearly stated that it would.

    So, now that death was part of our lives, when we have no 'program' for it, it remains to this day a foreign event in our experience.....we expect to keep living and when we are young, we never expect to grow old and then when it happens, its really hard to cope with. Aging is an affront. No one with a reasonable quality of life wants to die...and yet we all do sooner or later.

    The only way to give mankind hope in the present circumstances was the promise of a resurrection.....that is a return to mortal human life. This earth was designed to be our permanent home and so a return to life was to be enjoyed here where God designed us to life forever in paradise conditions.

    There was a tree in the garden that gave all humans that prospect, but as soon as they rebelled, sin entered into the world and access was denied....death then overtook us and spread like some genetically inherited disease. No one has been able to dodge it.

    So what kind of body will the resurrected ones get? Generally speaking, those raised back to life in Bible times were the same as when they died.....adults remained adults and children remained children. But if sickness had overtaken them, a repaired body was brought back to life. I cannot imagine anyone raised back in a decrepit or diseased body.

    Older ones will return to the days of their youth, it says in Job 33:25. But we don't know if that will be instantaneous or whether these ones will grow young gradually, with the aging process put into reverse. Whatever the case, it will be wonderful to reconnect with all those we have lost in death. We were never meant to be separated from them in the first place.

    For those chosen for life in heaven (to rule with Jesus in his Kingdom) they will be resurrected with spirit bodies as Jesus was. Just because Jesus materialized back then does not mean that he was raised with a physical body. The Bible says he was raised as a spirit, which was the form he had before coming to earth to offer his life for us. He materialized as other spirit beings had done in the past. These looked for all the world like any other human...they ate and drank and conversed with God's servants on earth. When they finished their assignment, they simply went back to the spirit realm by de-materializing their physical bodies. Jesus did this when he was eating with his disciples...he simply vanished before their eyes.

    This is what we believe the Bible says....
     
    • Like Like x 2
  16. Musing Bassist

    Musing Bassist Mihi Quaestio Factus Sum

    Joined:
    May 18, 2014
    Messages:
    2,813
    Ratings:
    +1,387
    Religion:
    Ordinariate Catholic
    Obviously, the glorified body will not be identical in nature to our current mortal bodies. (Which are subject to imperfections, ageing, sickness and death). Nonetheless, that the resurrection of the dead will be a physical one is a core dogma of the Christian faith. A core claim of Christianity is that Jesus himself was resurrected physically.
     
  17. Tiberius

    Tiberius Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2006
    Messages:
    3,595
    Ratings:
    +812
    Religion:
    Atheist
    Without the effects of aging?

    So a newborn baby?

    But wait, babies have aged, since the develop in their mother and their bodies change dramatically. SO if the new bodies have no signs of aging, are we going around in Heaven as fertilized eggs?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  18. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2017
    Messages:
    24,893
    Ratings:
    +7,226
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    You have NO IDEA how much better heaven is than earth. If you only knew you would wish that God would hasten your demise. That is one reason the nature of the afterlife has never been revealed by God, because God needs us here on earth to build His Kingdom on earth as it is in heaven, as Jesus said.

    Matthew 6:10 Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

    You only "believe" it would be great to live forever on earth in a physical body, but you would get really bored eventually as forever is a very long time....

    My life on earth has been more suffering than joy and one reason God allows suffering is so we will not become attached to this world. Notably, Jesus also said that we should not get attached to our life in this world.

    John 12:24-26 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit. He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal. If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.

    I am banking on heaven because I know it will be much better and I will never get bored.

    “O My servants! Sorrow not if, in these days and on this earthly plane, things contrary to your wishes have been ordained and manifested by God, for days of blissful joy, of heavenly delight, are assuredly in store for you. Worlds, holy and spiritually glorious, will be unveiled to your eyes. You are destined by Him, in this world and hereafter, to partake of their benefits, to share in their joys, and to obtain a portion of their sustaining grace. To each and every one of them you will, no doubt, attain.”
    Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 329
     
  19. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2017
    Messages:
    4,519
    Ratings:
    +1,253
    Religion:
    Itiswhatitis
    As for the 2nd resurrection from how I read it ... it takes place after the millennial reign whereas the first resurrection happens before. (Revelation 20)
    Well no one is truly just. The only differentiation between the just and unjust is those whom God has "justified" by free grace and those who God has not justified. Romans 5:18 makes clear that the free gift of Jesus' justification comes on all men. So the freely given justification of God is the only thing separating the just from the wicked.
    I believe they are resurrected to face judgment at the end of the world after Satan tempts Gog and Magog to make war on the saints.
     
  20. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2017
    Messages:
    24,893
    Ratings:
    +7,226
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    It might be core Christian dogma but it is not what is actually written in the Bible. As such I believe that Christianity was dead wrong, if you will pardon the expression. ;)

    Since what you believe was derived from I Corinthians 15, you might want to take a gander at this article:

    Won’t the Dead Rise Again?
     
Loading...