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Follow The Lamb

Discussion in 'Christianity DIR' started by GoldenThread, Jan 21, 2019.

  1. GoldenThread

    GoldenThread Member

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    I am not sure why you are saying Luke 14:33 is part of a prophecy, when it is clearly stated as a command. I'll quote it again,

    "So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple."

    No where in the context of Luke 14 does he imply that he is talking about prophecy. It seems to clearly state that Jesus wants anybody who wants to be His disciple (Christian) must forsake everything they have.

    To say this was only for the Jews during the seize in Rome would mean that Jesus didn't mean "whosoever" when he said it.

    I don't know about you, but I will trust Jesus' words opposed to an interpretation. On judgement day, I will be judged by Jesus' words (John 12:48).

    In peace
     
  2. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Let's see the verse in context...and in a modern English translation.....

    "25 Now great crowds accompanied him, and he turned and said to them, 26 “If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple. 27 Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me cannot be my disciple. 28 For which of you, desiring to build a tower, does not first sit down and count the cost, whether he has enough to complete it? 29 Otherwise, when he has laid a foundation and is not able to finish, all who see it begin to mock him, 30 saying, ‘This man began to build and was not able to finish.’ 31 Or what king, going out to encounter another king in war, will not sit down first and deliberate whether he is able with ten thousand to meet him who comes against him with twenty thousand? 32 And if not, while the other is yet a great way off, he sends a delegation and asks for terms of peace. 33 So therefore, any one of you who does not renounce all that he has cannot be my disciple." (Luke 14:25-33 ESV)

    Context reveals that Jesus is basically saying that we must be willing to forsake everything of value to us...even our own family members.....and calculate the expense of becoming his disciples. It costs us something.....sometimes everything we have....so are we prepared to do that?

    It is a willingness to do what Jesus commands, no matter what it costs us. If you want to take verse 33 literally, then perhaps you need to take verse 26 literally too? :shrug:
     
  3. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Sorry I didn't get back to you sooner GT.
    I think it would help to find out why the 144,000 were selected.
    One scripture which comes to mind is Luke 22:28-30
    American Standard Version (ASV)
    28 But ye are they that have continued with me in my temptations; 29 and [a]I appoint unto you a kingdom, even as my Father appointed unto me, 30 that ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom; and ye shall sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

    This is Jesus after having the Passover supper with his apostles.
    So they are evidently included in the 144,000. (Matthew 19:28)
    In fact, other scriptures show this to be the case, (Luke 12:32; Romans 8:15-17; 2 Timothy 2:12), and helps us see that the choosing of the 144,000 begins with the apostles - they are the first of the firstfruits apparently. (1 Corinthians 15:20-23)

    The verses say that they will sit on thrones judging. So they are kings, judges, and priest. Revelation 5:9, 10; 20:6.
    It seems apparent then that the 144,000 started from the twelve - minus Judas Iscariot - and would continue into the Lord's day, until that number is gathered.

    What do you think?
     
  4. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    @GoldenThread @Deeje I think you both agree on the verse, but are just looking at it from two perspectives.
    Are you not both agreeing that the verses are saying that in order to be Christ's disciple, one must be willing to make sacrifices?
     
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  5. GoldenThread

    GoldenThread Member

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    Yeah. Sounds like we should. If the question is are 'we prepared to do that'? The answer I don't think is theological, rather I think it is pretty simple. Those that are prepared to do it, will do it! Especially if Jesus says this is a requirement to be His disciple.

    Should we hate our families for God? Yupp. That is what Jesus says for us to do. God told Abraham to sacrifice his son, so God can do things that seem a bit extreme in our narrow vision of the bigger picture. NOTE: I know Abraham didn't actually kill Issac, but he was about to. Right down to the knife going to his son's neck. Are we prepared to do that if God told us to?

    We should hate our family and our own lives in comparison to Jesus. If not, then something will always come before God. Whether that be our wife, children, house, job, hopes dreams, etc. Whatever it is we are holding in higher regard, we must hate!

    If God commands you to forsake all, and your family tells you not to do it? Who will you listen to? Your actions reveals the answer to this question. One will be hated, while the other loved. Which do you choose?

    In peace
     
  6. GoldenThread

    GoldenThread Member

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    If the apostles are 'judging' the twelve tribes, then how can they be a part of the same tribes that will be judged?

    Food for thought.
     
  7. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Yes...this is what I was trying to get across to you.....We will give up everything of value to us if Jesus requires it. But not unless he requires it. Think of Job.....he was a very wealthy man, but his faith was stronger than that of any other man living. He lost everything when satan took it all away from him, saying that Job only served his God because of the blessings he experienced. But Job proved that neither his material wealth or his personal health were the basis of his faith, and when God rewarded Job for his faithfulness. he ended up richer that he was before. Its not wealth or possessions that are the problem....its our attachment to them...correct?

    Using the example of the Christians who were told to leave Jerusalem with nothing but the clothes on their backs, shows that they were willing to sacrifice all their possessions, BECAUSE Jesus said to. He was not telling them to sell everything they had, but to be prepared to live a simple unmaterialistic life, so that when it came time to go, they would not be held back by attachment to many things. Those Christians left houses, businesses, friends and family behind in Jerusalem in order to obey Jesus command....."when you see Jerusalem surrounded by encamped armies, then know that the desolating of her has drawn near. 21 Then let those in Ju·deʹa begin fleeing to the mountains, let those in the midst of her leave, and let those in the countryside not enter into her, 22 because these are days for meting out justice in order that all the things written may be fulfilled." (Luke 21: 21-23)

    He also said..."Let the man on the housetop not come down to take the goods out of his house, 18 and let the man in the field not return to pick up his outer garment. 19 Woe to the pregnant women and those nursing a baby in those days! 20 Keep praying that your flight may not occur in wintertime nor on the Sabbath day; 21 for then there will be great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world’s beginning until now, no, nor will occur again. 22 In fact, unless those days were cut short, no flesh would be saved; but on account of the chosen ones those days will be cut short." (Matthew 24:17-22)

    This has further implications as another 'great tribulation' is due when Christ returns to judge the world and separate the sheep from the goats.....so we must be prepared to do as they did.

    What does that mean in essence really? I have friends who have lost family because of their choice to serve God. They chose to leave the church of their parents and worship in a way that they knew was more pleasing to God. No one can put pressure on a person more than family members. But we have to "hate" them in the sense of loving them less....pleasing them less than we do Jesus....so we agree again.

    Yes, we agree.

    Many of my own brotherhood have done just that. I spent the first 20 years of my marriage with a mate in strong opposition and with constant threats of leaving....I was married only a short time before I came into contact with Jehovah's Witnesses....but he finally allowed himself to meet the people who had become my spiritual family.....and he ended up loving them. Ignorance had held him back for that long. The next 20 years were spent without conflict.....something for which I was very grateful because his entire family had opposed me as well.
     
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  8. GoldenThread

    GoldenThread Member

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    This is where I think the biggest contention is with what we believe.

    To me Jesus is commanding us to forsake all. It is clear in the scripture Luke 14:33, and in Luke 12:33. He also gives this command in Luke 18:22. To say that we only do this if Jesus tells us to doesn't jive with what I read Jesus telling us to do.

    Frankly, I would need a revelation from Jesus telling me not to do this command that he clearly stated for us to do.

    I am enjoying our discussion as I do with most Jehovah witnesses because they like to take scripture as the final authority. Now, I would ask that you consider the seriousness of this command of Jesus and how it relates to our relationship with Him, and with our Heavenly Father. He says, and I quote, "Whosoever does not forsake ALL that He has, Cannot be my disciple."

    This is an important command that Jesus places on all of us that want to be His disciple. He is not saying, "if I tell you to, then forsake all." Rather he is saying if YOU want to be my disciple, then this is my requirement. Black and white. Not a parable nor prophecy. Just a simple command that a child would understand if told to them.

    I ask that you take time and pray about what I'm sharing, and see if what I say is from the Almighty God, or if I speak of my own doctrine. I am convinced that if you do this with a sincere heart willing to hear God's answer (even if it is something difficult to hear), then Jehovah Himself will make the answer clear to you.

    In peace and love

    P.S. I am happy to hear that things went well for you and your family :)
     
  9. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Perhaps I need you to quantify what this means to you because it is clearly different to what I believe. So in real and specific terms, how do you apply that directive?

    We do take scripture as our final authority, but always in context of the Bible's overall message, in balance. Extremes in either direction benefit no one.

    There is nothing in our belief system that isn't applied with the sincerest of prayers. We find Jesus' teachings to be balanced in every way, as he applied what his Father provided by way of scripture. So the OT to us is as valuable to us in principle as the NT is in application.

    Proverbs 30:8-9 for example......
    "8 Remove untruth and lies far from me.
    Give me neither poverty nor riches.
    Just let me consume my portion of food,
    9 So that I do not become satisfied and deny you and say, “Who is Jehovah?”
    Nor let me become poor and steal and dishonor the name of my God."


    There is balance and reason in the writer's inspired words. This was also reflected in Jesus' teachings....he never recommended austerity but promoted a balanced view of material things. For the travelling minister, as Jesus was, he did not tie himself down with anything that could not be carried with him. His apostles too needed no "baggage" to hold them back.

    Paul stated that we should be "content" with what we have, rather than constantly acquiring more and more....bigger and better, as the world promotes. (1 Timothy 6:8-10; 1 John 2:15-17)

    Once I understand "how" you apply Jesus' words, then I will be able to comment further.

    Just as a side note, can I ask your affiliation? I have conversed with many here at RF concerning some very sincerely held beliefs only to find that they are alone in their worship. Many not able to find those who believe the same things. So it will also help me to understand your position in this aspect as well. Who is your brotherhood? With whom do you meet for worship? (Hebrews 10:24-25)

    I too am enjoying the discussion. Thank you for your kind words.
     
    #29 Deeje, Feb 5, 2019
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  10. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure which scripture you are thinking of. Do you have Revelation 7 in mind?
    Remember, the apostles alone are not judging the 12 tribes of Israel. The apostles are only 12 in number.
    The 144,000 are the ones that are kings, judges, and priest.

    Remember too, that they are firstfruits to God, and the lamb.
    Remember too, that God is no longer dealing with the nation of Israel.
    Paul said at Romans 9:6, But it is not as though the word of God hath come to nought. For they are not all Israel, that are of Israel (ASV)
    Both Gentiles and Jews that accept Christ are Israel.

    So, in the same way one can pull 144,000 vegetables from their vegetable garden, and they still all be vegetables, the 144,000 are taken from Israel...
    Revelation 7
    4 And I heard the number of them that were sealed, a hundred and forty and four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the children of Israel:
    5 Of the tribe of Judah were sealed twelve thousand;
    Of the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand;
    Of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand;
    6 Of the tribe of Asher twelve thousand;
    Of the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand;
    Of the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand;
    7 Of the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand;
    Of the tribe of Levi twelve thousand;
    Of the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand;
    8 Of the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand;
    Of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand;
    Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.
    9 After these things I saw, and behold, a great multitude, which no man could number, out of every nation and of all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, arrayed in white robes, and palms in their hands;

    The great multitude, then would evidently be the ones remaining after the 144,000 are sealed.
    Hence the twelve tribes of Israel from which the 144,000 are taken.

    ...These were purchased from among men, to be the first-fruits unto God and unto the Lamb. Revelation 14:4
    (Revelation 5:10)

    Would you agree that explains it perfectly?
     
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  11. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    @GoldenThread
    I take it then, you are stark naked, and sleep on the streets. :D
    [​IMG]
     
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  12. GoldenThread

    GoldenThread Member

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    If you want an example of that then watch the movie:
    Brother Son, Sister Moon.

    Jesus promises that once we forsake all, he will give it all back, a hundreth fold.
    Mark 10: 29-30, "
    And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's,

    30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life."

    But I did forsake everything, including the clothes on my back. God held true to his promise. I had clothes to immediately replace the ones I forsook, and I've never gone naked or hungry ever since.

    In peace
     
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  13. GoldenThread

    GoldenThread Member

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    I take it as Jesus stated it. I try not to add my own interpretation of what Jesus said, or else we get denominations that teach what they think Jesus means, rather than following Jesus the way he wants us to.

    Simple answer: Jesus says forsake all and sell all, therefore, I take it that he wants us to forsake all and sell all.
    I agree. The overall message points to Jesus. When we have Jesus, we have the Father also. The old testaments points to him (John 5: 39-40), and the new testament are epistles full of him.

    What I don't agree with is when people use other parts of scripture to 'negate' what Jesus taught, and promote another Bible writer's words as superior to Jesus' words. The Bible says Jesus is the "Word of God" (John 1:1 & REv 19:13), therefore his words are superior to anyone else's.

    This is what I don't agree with. The words of Solomon shouldn't be taken as having 'more weight' than Jesus' words. This is essentially what you want me to do. Take Jesus' words and line it up with Solomon's. This shouldn't be so. The Bible says that Jesus is the cornerstone; therefore, we line up the rest of the Bible with him.

    1 Peter 2:5-8, "
    Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

    6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.


    7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,

    8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed."

    Notice here that Jesus is also a stone of stumbling to some that are disobedient. Jesus also says that his word is the rock that we should build our faith on (Matthew 7:23-25).

    I am not sure where Jesus said we should have a balanced view on material things. Luke 14:33 & Luke 12:33, seems pretty clear that selling all is the view he has on material things. Consider John 6:27, "Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed."

    Also, Matthew 6:24, "No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon."

    Here Jesus seems to give us an ultimatum: Either choose God or choose money/mammon/riches.

    Where is this 'balanced' view that Jesus takes on materialism. Please provide scripture of Jesus supporting your view.

    Personally, I don't like to focus on myself. I find if people dabble to much in the messenger, then they miss the message. I try to focus on Jesus, because that is what's going to matter at the end of the day, not what denomination I proclaim to be.

    Nevertheless, I will say I am a Christian, and I have a fellowship that follows the pattern of Jesus. Specifically what the early Church taught and lived their lives.

    Acts 2:44-45, "
    And all that believed were together, and had all things common;

    45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need."

    Acts 4:32-35, "
    And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.

    33 And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.

    34 Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold,

    35 And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need."

    Again, please don't focus so much on me, rather focus on the message, because the message points to Jesus, which points to the Father.

    I look forward to hear your response.

    In peace

    P.S. I am not sure why half of my email is in italics. It won't allow me to change it. ):
     
  14. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Great! So that would explain why Christians have.
    So we can't look at what they have, and conclude that they haven't given up, right? :thumbsup:

    What about those with the $10,000 Rolex, and $1.3 million home, with gold-plated bathroom fixtures, and air-conditioned and heated doghouse. God sure supplied them richly.
    Maybe they went as far as taking off all the hair from their body. :D

    I wonder... [​IMG]
    Nah, nPeace. Bury the though.
     
  15. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    @GoldenThread
    So question, are you still selling...
    Do you constantly become naked and sell your home, and all you have?

    We need to be reasonable, and it seems apparent Deeje is being reasonable. Golden thread.... hmmm, let's see where this takes us.
     
  16. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    So your interpretation of Jesus' words means abject poverty as a choice? Is that what you are saying? You promote an austere existence with no material possessions...unless Jesus gives them back to you? As per previous comments, how then can you judge what is given by Jesus and what is given by human effort?

    When Jesus gave you back the things you forsook did you then feel compelled to ditch them as well? I am finding it hard to understand your reasoning.

    In your own case, how do you know it was Jesus who compensated you for foolishly even shedding the clothes off your back? Where will I find Jesus telling us that extreme austerity makes you a better Christian?

    Hang on.....if "all scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work".....as Paul said, then why should one scripture cancel out another? They are all complementary, not contradictory. We can't pick and choose what we will accept and what we will discount.

    If Solomon said "give me neither poverty nor riches" then somewhere in the middle was ideal. Extremes are not what Jesus taught.

    So, to my way of thinking....either the whole Bible is the word of God...or none of it is.

    The words of Solomon are complimentary to what Jesus said because Jesus never once recommended austerity. What he condemned was the love of money and an inordinate desire for material things. As Paul also recommended that what we "need" may be a lot different to our "wants". Practicing the art of contentment is now more difficult than ever. (1 Timothy 6:8-10)

    Matthew 19: 16-24....
    "Now look! someone came up to him and said: “Teacher, what good must I do to gain everlasting life?17 He said to him: “Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If, though, you want to enter into life, observe the commandments continually.18 He said to him: “Which ones?” Jesus said: “You must not murder, you must not commit adultery, you must not steal, you must not bear false witness, 19 honor your father and your mother, and you must love your neighbor as yourself.” 20 The young man said to him: “I have kept all of these; what am I still lacking?” 21 Jesus said to him: “If you want to be perfect, go sell your belongings and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come be my follower.” 22 When the young man heard this, he went away grieved, for he had many possessions. 23 Then Jesus said to his disciples: “Truly I say to you that it will be difficult for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of the heavens. 24 Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to get through a needle’s eye than for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of God.

    So what is this scenario really teaching us? Jesus' first response was not about the man's money or possessions....but his conduct and keeping of God's law. Only after the man said that he was doing what the law required did Jesus discern the real reason for his lack of conviction....he was too attached to his material possessions. This was an indication that the man was relying on his wealth, not on his relationship with God.

    It is not saying that we can't have possessions but it is our attitude towards them. This was illustrated in a Bible drama we had several years ago concerning the the flight of the Christians out of Jerusalem in 66CE when Jesus told them not to go back for their possessions, just to leave with the clothes on their back.

    Fleeing to the mountains in such a dangerous time was difficult by itself, let alone carrying valuables that robbers would have killed them to obtain. So taking along unnecessary things would have hindered them in their flight and even endangered their lives. Add to that the fact that many had left houses and relatives and businesses behind in Jerusalem to start again in a new location from scratch, would have been very hard. But then word would have reached them that the Romans hadn't returned....so the temptation to go back might have led some to return to their material things, only to be trapped when the Romans did come back. There are two very important lessons right there.


    Not true. That never was the choice. It was their attitude towards their wealth, money and riches. For any Christian, sharing what we have is the natural thing to do. We contribute to a world wide fund that allows us to bring disaster relief right away to our brotherhood at any time. It provides materials to rebuild houses whilst others are waiting on insurance assessments to get back into their homes....sometimes taking months. We offer free accommodation to our brothers who are affected so that they will have somewhere to stay and to continue their spiritual routine, so important in these troubled times. Sharing is difficult if you have nothing to share.

    I think the story of the rich young ruler is adequate. Jesus did not immediately zero in on his wealth...but told him to sell them and give to the poor if he wanted treasure in heaven.

    You don't understand....focusing on the messenger is important, because the messengers themselves have to be in agreement and they have to follow the commands of the Christ. A global preaching work was going to be backed by Jesus himself as he told his disciples to "Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you. And look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.” (Matthew 28:19-20)

    In his discourse to his apostles on 'the sign of his presence and the conclusion of the system of things', (Matthew 24:3-14) Jesus foretold that the preaching of the good news of the kingdom would take place in the whole world, making Christianity, not a small local gathering, but a global brotherhood who all spoke in agreement and saw the need to obey the command of Christ. No one can do this work, on that scale, and in that kind of united effort, but those who have Jesus guiding them and supporting their efforts with God's spirit. We have been unitedly preaching the good news now for over a hundred years in all nations and in every language. Our website is very busy. JW.ORG

    If your brotherhood does not meet that criteria, then it is not in association with Christ's "faithful and discreet slave" who were assigned by the Master to "feed" his household their "food at the proper time". (Matthew 24:45) There is only one table from which God dispenses spiritual food.....there is no other table except the one satan has set up. It too has food that looks appetizing, but it is spiritually poisonous.

    Paul wrote at 1 Corinthians 10:20-22....
    "No; but I say that what the nations sacrifice, they sacrifice to demons and not to God; and I do not want you to become sharers with the demons. 21 You cannot be drinking the cup of Jehovah and the cup of demons; you cannot be partaking of “the table of Jehovah” and the table of demons. 22 Or ‘are we inciting Jehovah to jealousy’? We are not stronger than he is, are we?"

    How many people are so confident of their Christianity...but will end up hearing Jesus' stinging rebuke? :( (Matthew 7:21-23)
     
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  17. GoldenThread

    GoldenThread Member

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    Your imagination really got a kick out of this one, didn't it? :D

    I think you can still look at what people have and see whether or not they have forsaken all.

    For example, if someone says they forsaken all and they have $10,000 Rolex, and $1.3 million home, with gold-plated bathroom fixtures, and air-conditioned and heated doghouse, then it is safe to presume that they haven't done that. Jesus himself didn't have a for sure place to sleep at night (Luke 9:58). Paul also says we should be content with Food and clothing.

    All this is to say: Keep that thought buried npeace!

    In peace
     
  18. GoldenThread

    GoldenThread Member

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    I am not sure why you are saying it is my 'interpretation'. If you compare how I apply the teaching to what Jesus said, then please show me where an interpretation was inputed. Thanks.

    When Jesus gave me back things, then I took it as Jesus wanted me to use them for His ministry. I sometimes feel compelled to ditch certain things when they are no longer needed for the ministry, due to the type/style of minisrty changing. For example, I use to live in an Rv traveling, but now I am in an apartment. All things were supplies by God.

    The only way to understand what Jesus taught is by obeying them.

    It is true that the Bible doesn't contradict nor cancel out. Solomon does say what you quoted him as saying, but you are using Solomon's words to negate Jesus'. Remember the verses I quoted Jesus saying? Weren't they saying that Jesus wanted us to take an extreme stance against materialism?

    The scripture you quoted Paul saying isn't referring to the Bible. It couldn't have since the Bible wasn't put together until many years after writing this. The Bible does say that Jesus is the 'Word of God'. No where does the Bible claim to be the 'Word of God'. Show me a scripture in the Bible that says the book the 'Bible' is the Word of God and I will change my position.

    I don't pick and choose verses, rather I align all the verses to the Cornerstone. The rock that will never shake my house (Matthew 7:23-25).
     
  19. GoldenThread

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    Notice again that you are saying Jesus taught a 'balanced' view on materialism. What scriptures do you have to back up Jesus saying this?



    It seems apparent to me exactly what Jesus is saying. Your interpretation doesn't fit the words of Jesus. Here is the answer that Jesus gave, "If you want to be perfect, go sell your belongings and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come be my follower.”

    Therefore, this is what we must do. It doesn't say to just change your attitude towards them. No. It says we must do something physically (literally sell all our things) to prove we have our faith towards God and not on our material things.



    The lesson is to show God that you have faith in him by letting go of all your material possessions. This jives with Luke 14:33 and Luke 12:33. If we are not willing to do this, then it shows God (and others) that our faith isn't truly in Him, rather it is in our possessions. If our faith is truly in God, then we won't have any problem letting it go. The problem comes in when we don't have faith in God as we think we do.





    I can see the comparison of what the early Christians had to do in the first century, but that doesn't negate the fact that Jesus wants us to do it today! This seems to be the main purpose of sharing this story. It is to say that this command was only meant for that time in history, so we don't have to follow it today. The context of Jesus giving us this command in no way indicates that this is a future, once and done, event. If says plainly to forsake everything, or else you are not His disciple. It doesn't say if you don't forsake everything when the roman armies come to destroy Jerusalem, then you are not my disciples.



    I get the impression that this interpretation is used to justify people not obeying this clear command of Jesus.



    The part in bold is the issue of not taking Jesus at his word, and finding a different interpretation that fits our fears.



    The thought is: If I don't work for money, then I won't have anything to give. Correct me if I'm wrong but that is what you are saying here?



    Is it hard to imagine that God can provide for us even though we don't slave at a job for money? In the garden of Eden there won't be any money, and in heaven there won't be. But why in the middle do we think we need money to survive?



    The idea that we don't have anything to share if we stop working for money shows me where our faith resides for survival. It is not in God... rather it is in our job that gives us a paycheck. If this wasn't so, then why is it hard to believe that God will provide for you if you stopped working for money, and start working full-time for God? I



    Let me be clear, I am not advocating for people to quit their jobs and do nothing and expect God to provide. Far from it. What we should do is stop putting our time and effort in working for money, and put our time and effort building God's kingdom by going into all the world preaching the gospel. If we do this, then God will provide all our needs.



    If you don't have the faith to believe this, then maybe reading the following verses will comfort you.

    Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?



    26 Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?



    27 Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?



    28 And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin:



    29 And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.



    30 Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?



    31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?



    32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.



    33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.



    Isn't this what you were doing when I suggested that we should take Jesus at His word and either choose God or choose money? You started to worry and think you won't be able to care for your brothers and sisters around the world because you wouldn't have a job to do so?



    Notice in verse 33 that God will be the one who supplies all our needs if, and that is a big IF, we seek FIRST his kingdom and ALL his righteousness.



    Do you believe those words?



    This is a real head scratcher to me... How do you get the idea that Jesus telling the rich young ruler to sell all his possessions and give to the poor an example of "balanced view on materialism"?



    It seems the main point revolves around the idea that Jesus just didn't come right out and say, "you must give up everything". Since Jesus didn't start with that, then that shows a balanced view? Is that what you are saying?
     

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  20. GoldenThread

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    NOTE: This is part 3.



    The more people focus on the messenger, the more they lose sight of the message. People tend to elevate the messenger and put them in equal playing fiekd with Jesus himself. They even say that if you don't agree with us then you don't agree with God. This type of attitude is exactly what Jesus was up against with the Pharisees. They thought since they were born as a jew that they had a special right that God himself can't take away from them and if anybody didn't agree with them and their doctrine, then they didn't agree with God.



    This type of control instills the fear of me, not the fear of God. People inevitably start looking to men as their source to know God's will, and not with God to know His will. The OT is filled with a remnant of people that went against the religion of their day because they didn't follow men, rather they only followed the leadings of God. When a group or individual puts himself on level with God, then corruption is bound to take route, and only those that learned to have a personal relationship with God himself, will be able to point out the heresy within the organization.





    How do we work out who is feeding the food? In whom do we look too?

    Answer: Jesus.



    If the person(s) are teaching any doctrine that doesn't line up with Jesus and what he taught, then I will say they are dispensing the food that satan set up. Jesus taught his disciples to judge the fruit of an individual to know whether or not what they are saying is 'good' or 'bad'.



    A word of advice: If someone is leading you away from Jesus and His teachings and to 'themselves' or 'their' organization, then that is a concerning sign.



    Jesus says in John 14:26, "But the comforter, the Holy ghost, whom the father will send in my name, will teach you all things and remind you of everything I have told you." Notice here that the job of the 'Holy spirit' is to remind us of everything that Jesus taught us to do. This is one way to know whether or not someone is speaking with 'God's spirit'.



    John 6:63, "The spirit is the one who gives life. The flesh doesn't profit anything; The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life." Jesus' words/teachings are what gives us life. That should be our focus as Christians.



    Indeed, there is only one table we can eat off of. I can appreciate having the attitude that you are weilding the truth and nothing can shake your beliefs. This is good to have, however, when we think we ourselves know so much and what we believe cannot be shaken, then that leaves room for ourselves to become self-righteous and delusional about ourselves.



    One way to know if this is happening to ourselves: Are we willing to give up what we currently believe if God himself came down and told us we was wrong?



    I'll leave it there.



    In peace
     
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