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Follow The Lamb

Discussion in 'Christianity DIR' started by GoldenThread, Jan 21, 2019.

  1. GoldenThread

    GoldenThread Member

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    Revelation 14:3-4, "And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth...These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb."

    Many believe that the 144,000 are Jews. How can this be when the book of Revelation describes them as "following the Lamb (Jesus) wherever He goes." If Jews don't believe in Jesus, then how can they follow Him wherever He goes as the 144,000 are described as doing?

    What are people's thoughts on this.

    In peace
     
  2. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Good point. I guess that the "twelve tribes of Israel" in Revelation must be 'spiritual' Jews then. (Galatians 6:16) :)
     
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  3. Workman

    Workman UNIQUE

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    “Its as narrow as it gets,
    Only a few will find it”

    144,000 will go through
     
  4. Workman

    Workman UNIQUE

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    One for t(cross) for thou send
    =144,000
     
  5. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
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    So, you are JW then?
     
  6. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    No dear. He is not... but then, who am I to say. :D
     
  7. Workman

    Workman UNIQUE

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    Sorry Ellen!
    Not quite sure who you refferd your question to? But if to me! Then nPeace is 100% right!
    I am not, I am no one,
    I own nothing, and I owe everything.
    Jew is to name and for message ,
    And like Christianity with also other religions, will be the same,
    Other religions are man made for Power & confusion..but it won’t matter! If you trust yourselfs and ask the right questions!.
     
  8. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Ellen was asking GoldenThread.
     
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  9. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
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    It is OK. At first I thought the passage was being posed as the 144,000 were the only surviving from Earth. It wa very late, so I went to bed. This morning, looking at Rev. 14 KJV it is clear to me that they are set aside, and to be clear there are other qualifications. They are virgins, and are set in Heaven, or where ever the Lamb goes. The rest of the surviving humanity is on Earth.

    It is clear that at some point Jesus does return to Earth to set things right. I want to make it clear in my own mind if the 144,000 begin to follow Jesus before his return to Earth, or after the 1,000 years? Revelations in my mind is mostly clear and unambiguous, though I do not know how much "translation" by those I will never agree with, muddled the message.

    I've seen so much unholy activity in the name of false religion, that I will need to research this on my own. These days I do not trust those involved in Priestcraft.
     
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  10. GoldenThread

    GoldenThread Member

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    Nope.
     
  11. GoldenThread

    GoldenThread Member

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    No, the question was not referring to the 144,000 being the only one saved.

    The 144,000 are those who follow the Lamb now.

    The 144,000 are also referred to in Rev 7 (for your studies).

    It seems to make sense that they are the ones that follow the Lamb now because they are the ones that receives God's seal of 'approval'. They must have lived the way God wanted them to during their life on Earth, in order to be seen as "worthy" to become part of this 'elite' group.

    I think the fact they are virgins seem to be symbolic, since there are another reference to them "not defiling themselves with women". Virgins in the Bible usually refers to women, since that was very important back in the OT. How can women fit the category as to "not defile themselves with women" if they are women a part of the 144,000?

    I see a correlation to this idea of being virgins, and what Jesus taught in 19:12, "For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it."

    Could the 144,000 consist of people that choose to remain celibate or "Single for Christ"?

    In peace
     
  12. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    I don't think there is a connection between the two scriptures. The "virginity" of the 144,000 is spiritual, not physical because many of the anointed were married. The apostle Peter was a married man because Jesus healed his mother-in-law. (Luke 4:38)

    Being a 'eunuch for the sake of the kingdom' is more about sacrificing marriage so as to engage in the Lord's work without distraction.
    It was a recommendation however, not a requirement or a command. The last part of that scripture says that whoever can do that (remain single) should. Married people can also serve God together.

    You mean like Catholic priests....forbidden to marry? No! I believe that some will have been married...so not all would be single. Some will have chosen singleness as a way to serve God more fully.

    As Paul said.....at 1 Corinthians 7:32-35....(NET)
    " And I want you to be free from concern. An unmarried man is concerned about the things of the Lord, how to please the Lord. 33 But a married man is concerned about the things of the world, how to please his wife, 34 and he is divided. An unmarried woman or a virgin is concerned about the things of the Lord, to be holy both in body and spirit. But a married woman is concerned about the things of the world, how to please her husband. 35 I am saying this for your benefit, not to place a limitation on you, but so that without distraction you may give notable and constant service to the Lord."
     
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  13. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    @GoldenThread I like that point you made.
    Good reasoning. :thumbsup:

    When you say...
    I assume you are including the apostles and earlier disciples who are now dead, am I right?
     
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  14. GoldenThread

    GoldenThread Member

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    I am not completely sure. It can include those that were alive during Jesus' time, but it could also mean the 144,000 consist of 144,000 that are alive during the time of Christ.

    I am not sure either way. What do you think?
     
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  15. GoldenThread

    GoldenThread Member

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    I think that is exactly why there is a connection! Since these people that chose to be celibate, they do so in order to follow the Lamb better, than they would be if they married. As you mentioned, marriage brings distractions.

    I agree that Jesus gives us a choice in the matter. It is not a sin to marry, and we shouldn't forbid marriage. However, if one knows what a eunich was in the OT, then they can see how this can correlate with the 144k following the Lamb wherever He goes.

    In the OT, there were certain servants that took care of the King's wives. In order for them not to get tempted to fornicate with their wives, they were made Eunichs. Who wants that job?! However, this shows great commitment to the king.

    I am saying that remaining single or becoming a literal Eunich, is something that someone decides to do, because they want to serve their king in the best way (something you recognize).

    I am not saying that married couples can't be a part of the 144k. Paul writes that married people should live as if they were single. What I am saying is this commitment of becoming a spiritual or fleshly Eunich shows God that they want to follow the Lamb wherever He goes, and they are willing to sacrifice their pleasures for Him. Similar to someone fasting in order to hear from God. This sort of commitment isn't found in many Christians nowadays; maybe that's why their are only 144k!

    In peace
     
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  16. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Only married people understand Paul's words. [​IMG]


    Yes it is a voluntary thing. Those who were castrated in the King's house had no choice in the matter, but a spiritual eunuch made room for that in their life....a choice to remain 'undistracted' so as to devote their time and attention to God's service.

    I believe that it was more of a sacrifice on the part of their wives since women had no part in teaching or instructing in the congregations, but they had a full share in preaching and teaching outside the congregations. Having husbands busy in the Lord's work meant doing without them a good deal of the time as they attended to the needs of the brothers and sisters, so the complimentary role of the woman in God's arrangement was important for the smooth functioning of the family as well as the congregation. It is important to understand that there was never just one pastor or shepherd leading the congregation. There was always a body of men to share the responsibilities. Following their scriptural counsel was an important way to remain faithful. (Hebrews 13:17)

    Fasting was clearly practiced by the Jews, but is not mentioned so much in the NT. It has definite health benefits but it is nowhere recommended as a way to hear from God. Jesus fasted in the wilderness for 40 days after his baptism. No normal human can last 40 days without food or water. So his example is not set for us in that instance. Jesus was obviously sustained by God in some other way during that time.

    Paul said that the Pharisees fasted as a form of mock humility. So when the Jews fasted it was done in secret, giving no indication that one was suffering any deprivation. So again it is up to us individually to choose to fast as a health provision or not to. There is no rule.
     
  17. GoldenThread

    GoldenThread Member

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    Do you agree that remaining single is the preferred option that God wants us to do?

    Wouldn't that swing the other way as well? If husbands were busy doing the Lord's work, then they would be away from their wives also. The idea is still the same: Live for God as if you were single.

    I agree congregations never had one pastor leading, rather there was a group of leaders/elders that would guide each congregation.
    Jesus did chastise the disciples for not fasting. This is recorded in Mark 9:29.
    Jesus did teach for us to fast, and he even taught us how to do it. In secret. Matthew 6:16-18,"
    Moreover when ye fast, be not, as the hypocrites, of a sad countenance: for they disfigure their faces, that they may appear unto men to fast. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

    17 But thou, when thou fastest, anoint thine head, and wash thy face;

    18 That thou appear not unto men to fast, but unto thy Father which is in secret: and thy Father, which seeth in secret, shall reward thee openly." God still rewards people for fasting for the purpose of getting closer to God. That is what the idea of denying yourself physically to feed yourself spiritually comes from.

    I agree that it is a choice, but not as a health provision. The health provision can be a bonus, but the purpose of fasting was and always has been to get closer to God through it.

    In peace
     
  18. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    It is definitely an advantage as Paul said, but not one that disqualifies anyone from being part of the anointed "joint-heirs" with Jesus. As a choice, it shows willing self sacrifice, which is a very good quality for Christians. Jesus was the ultimate example of that. :)

    Yes, I guess so....both make the sacrifice. But it was the men who were told to be as though they had no wife. I don't see the women being told the same thing. [​IMG] But in the Lord's work singleness is certainly preferable and an advantage. We have a school for single brothers who offer themselves this way. Its not binding of course, if they should choose to marry, it is still God's sanctioned arrangement. Couples can also serve together in preaching and in the Bible study work as they did in bible times. (Acts 18:24-26) Jesus sent his disciples out "by twos" (Luke 10:1-2)

    Elders were also to take the lead in preaching but we don't see the churches engaging in it. It was a command from Jesus....not an option. (Matthew 28:19-20; Matthew 10:11-15) Why do you think they neglect this very important work?

    This is why I believe that the churches have so many problems. One man to carry an entire congregation is not the way first century Christians operated. A body of men to carry the load is preferable and also keeps one man from gaining too much power over others under his care. Keeps them humble. When a body of men meet to discuss a problem there is wisdom in "many counselors" (Proverbs 15:22)
    This is also why congregations were kept small in the first century. The shepherds needed to "know" their sheep in order to minister to them.

    But I guess, today things are very different. The mainstream churches are dying and many are staring at closure or amalgamation because of dwindling numbers.....but OTOH mega churches have become nothing more than concert venues. With hundreds of people attending, it would be impossible for the pastor to "know his flock". He becomes more of a showman than a trusted friend and teacher.

    Mark 9:29...NASB
    "And He said to them, “This kind cannot come out by anything but prayer.”

    The oldest and best manuscripts do not include the words “and fasting.” These words were evidently added by Bible copyists. It appears that these copyists advocated and practiced fasting and so they added references to it repeatedly where it was not found in earlier copies. They did this in other verses as well.

    In any case, Jesus' teachings to Jews were for Jews, who were commanded to fast....but when Gentiles were accepted into the congregations, they were not subject to the Law. Only a few "necessary" things were required of them as the circumcision issue revealed. (Acts 15:28-29) As I said...it is not commanded for Christians but not forbidden either.

    I can see that this is important to you. Fasting is a practice common to many of the world’s religions, including Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, Jainism, and Judaism. Many people believe that abstaining from food for a certain period of time draws one closer to God.

    The Mosaic Law commanded the Jews to “afflict [their] souls,” that is, to fast, once a year on Atonement Day. (Leviticus 16:29-31; Psalm 35:13) This was the only fasting that God ever commanded his people to do, though other fasts met with his approval. Jews who lived under the Mosaic Law would have obeyed that command. But Christians are not required to observe the Mosaic Law. (Romans 10:4; Colossians 2:14)

    Again, if one feels closer to God by fasting, it is certainly not condemned.
     
  19. GoldenThread

    GoldenThread Member

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    Some choose to preach, some don't. Why, I don't know. They may each have their various reasons. The same goes for Luke 14:33, "Whosoever does not forsake all that He has, Cannot be my disciple." People will read this an not do it, yet still claim to be a disciple (which is the same thing as Christian), though Jesus says we must do this in order to become His disciple.

    Agreed.

    What about the verse I quoted in Matthew 6? The sermon on the mount are teachings for those that want to follow Jesus. Was this passage added as well?

    Not sure why sharing the fact of what other beliefs hold is relevant in this context. Considering Jesus teaches that it is still relevant to do. Whether or not other religions partake in the same practice is irrelevant to what Jesus taught. Considering we are christians.
    As mentioned above, Jesus taught we should fast, but secretly (Matt 6). Though I think we should do it as God leads, we must also see the importance that God puts on doing it. Our flesh always wants to find a way to fulfill it's needs.

    We are not under the Mosaic Law. But Jesus' teachings are not part of the OT. Jesus' teachings are part of the NT, thus, we should obey His commands. Similar to the ones you follow by going out 'two-by-two' and preaching the Gospel.

    In peace
     
  20. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Could it be that Jesus' command was to preach the "good news of God's Kingdom as a witness (or testimony) to all the nations" before the "end" of the present system of things. (Matthew 24:14)......and yet the churches don't seem to know exactly what the kingdom is, or what it will do for mankind. (Revelation 21:2-4; Daniel 2:44)

    From your perspective, what do you believe the Kingdom of God is? How does it "come"? How then is God's will "done on earth as it is in heaven"?

    Do you remember Jesus' words to his disciples concerning the coming fall of Jerusalem, which occurred 37 years after his death?
    Mark 13:14-16....Jesus said "....when you catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation standing where it should not be (let the reader use discernment), then let those in Ju·deʹa begin fleeing to the mountains. 15 Let the man on the housetop not come down nor go inside to take anything out of his house; 16 and let the man in the field not return to the things behind to pick up his outer garment."
    These are apparently people with possessions who are told not to take them out of their homes when fleeing to the mountains after they saw the Romans laying siege to Jerusalem.

    Luke's account provides more details.....
    “However, when you see Jerusalem surrounded by encamped armies, then know that the desolating of her has drawn near. 21 Then let those in Ju·deʹa begin fleeing to the mountains, let those in the midst of her leave, and let those in the countryside not enter into her, 22 because these are days for meting out justice in order that all the things written may be fulfilled. 23 Woe to the pregnant women and those nursing a baby in those days! For there will be great distress on the land and wrath against this people. 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled."

    We know that the Romans, after laying siege to the city in 66 CE, suddenly withdrew for no apparent reason. Seeing the way clear, the Christians obeyed Jesus' command and fled to the mountains, many of them to a city called Pella. Others sought refuge on the eastern bank of the Jordan River. Those Christians 'forsook' all their possessions in order to save their lives. This is what I believe Jesus meant in Mark 14:33. Not that they needed to sell all their possessions and have nothing, because austerity was never an evidence of being Christian. Living a simple life, free from the love of money was more the recommendation. But the interesting part of the story is that the Romans did not return to destroy the city for another four years. Many of the Jewish Christians had left businesses in Jerusalem and they had fled with nothing but the clothes on their backs and a few meager provisions. When it became apparent that the Romans were not coming back, the temptation would have been to go back.....any who did would have suffered one of the worst sieges in Jewish history. Again, we see that obedience saves lives....even if it means giving up all that we own.

    Are you familiar with what the "appointed times of the nations" are? (Sometimes called "the Gentile Times") And how they are "fulfilled"?

    Jesus was Jewish and he was sent to preach only to Jews. Jews were under Law and fasting was part of the Law. Its not that fasting is bad for Christians, but simply a personal choice. As you said....done in secret.

    Just demonstrating that fasting is practiced in other faiths. These other faiths see it as a way to get closer to God.

    Jesus upheld the Law whilst it was current, but after his death, the Law was no longer binding on Christ's followers. Jesus fulfilled it. He was the permanent atonement sacrifice....once for all time.Jews no longer needed to sacrifice animals but were free to practice the other parts if they wished. The Law was perfect.

    Can you show me a requirement for Christians (who were not Jewish) to fast? Neither fasting, nor circumcision were "necessary" for Christians according to Acts 15:28-29. But again...its a personal choice and nothing wrong with it. Its between you and God....no one has to know.

    Do you see Christians today obeying Jesus' commands? Not just the convenient ones, but all of them?
    How many become part of this world by meddling in it politics? (John 18:36) Supporting their nation's military and sharing guilt for the innocent blood spilled in the wars of their nations? (Isaiah 1:15) How many Christians participate in pagan festivals dressed up to look like Christian celebrations? Does it ever occur to people that the two most important celebrations on their calendar were originally nothing to do with Jesus? They just grafted him into them. (2 Corinthians 6:14-18) Is that OK with God, do you think?

    Preaching was a command....because people's lives were at stake. (Ezekiel 3:17-21) What applied in Ezekiel's day, applies today as well. We have a duty to warn people about God's intentions.......not that we expect a great response, because Jesus likens our day to Noah's. "Few" will respond. (Matthew 7:13-14; Matthew 24:37-39) but we have to find them. (Matthew 10:11-15)
     
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