Florida GOP want to check out teenage genitals.

[Twilight Hue]

The only way to settle things is with one sport.

Roller derby!

Who's with me?!!

 

[oldbadger]

Performative outrage aside, do you agree with my assessment or not?

You didn't answer my question.
Do you think that men's and women's events be scrapped for human-events?

 

[metis]

It seems to me that Republicans have developed a new fetish. But forcing their personal perversions on teenagers is disgusting.

They're just nuts.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

No. But...

Legally yes, I agree in that context.

Genetics are a different matter altogether however. There will never be a full transformation. It just dosent exist. At least for now.

We know that. It doesn't need to be brought up. We already have dysphoria, you know. I have no idea why people think trans people are somehow unaware of what our bodies are like. Like we transition for some other reason.

 

[Scott C.]

The fundamental flaw in this argument is that trans women are women, not men. Just as trans men are men, not women.

When it comes to issues of strength and speed that is simply not true. I don't want to argue about the meaning of gender or the meaning of any other word. But clearly there are fundamental biological differences between a male and female, which surgery does not erase.If you are born male with a penis, I am not a biologist, but there are aspects to our physical nature which are male or female and cannot be changed. This person may not relate to being male and may feel female and may get surgery and society may choose to define that person as a female or a trans-female, but that does not change core gender biology which makes one more athletic than another. I'm not trying to harass transgender people or debate what they should be called. I'm just saying that there is an undeniable part of one's physical nature that was born boy or girl and will always be so. This is true regardless of what new word gymnastics we deploy.

 

[Kooky]

When it comes to issues of strength and speed that is simply not true. I don't want to argue about the meaning of gender or the meaning of any other word. But clearly there are fundamental biological differences between a male and female, which surgery does not erase.If you are born male with a penis, I am not a biologist, but there are aspects to our physical nature which are male or female and cannot be changed. This person may not relate to being male and may feel female and may get surgery and society may choose to define that person as a female or a trans-female, but that does not change core gender biology which makes one more athletic than another. I'm not trying to harass transgender people or debate what they should be called. I'm just saying that there is an undeniable part of one's physical nature that was born boy or girl and will always be so. This is true regardless of what new word gymnastics we deploy.

Actually, most of these aspects would be the results of hormonal changes during puberty - so yes, there are biological differences; but these biological differences are highly variable within populations, and furthermore may manifest at different stages in life.

Part of the process of transitioning is a highly regulated hormonal regime, which aims to raise estrogen and lower testosterone levels in trans women, and vice versa for trans men; testosterone levels are related to levels of muscular growth, beard growth, aggression, and other features of what we associate with stereotypical 'masculine' appearance and behavior.

Please also note that these hormonal procedures are a legal requirement for a person having legally transitioned from their birth gender, and in most Western countries, trans people are legally barred from correctional surgery unless they agree to such a hormonal regime. So following the legal gender transition process in most Western countries does in fact change elements of "core gender biology" as you put it (and as an aside, this is especially true for people who transition early in their lives - hence the call for legal hormone blockers for pubescent trans people).

EDIT:

But I feel like this topic strays from the core of the argument - we are still debating which women are allowed to take part in female-only competitions for female athletes. Yet, curiously we do not consider biological differences between two cis women or between two cis men unfair or inherently worthy of debate, even though we just established that differences in strength, speed, build etc. do make a significant difference in sports.

Why then, I ask, are these differences only ever an issue when debating the validity of trans athletes in their chosen field of sports? What makes trans women different from cis women? And here is the actual, real core of the argument, the hidden truth of the anti-trans position: Trans women, they argue, are not real women. This is the foundation of this entire argument.

And this is where the true positions in this debate reveal themselves:
Either you believe a trans woman is a woman, or you don't.

 

[Aštra’el]

The fundamental flaw in this argument is that trans women are women, not men. Just as trans men are men, not women.

That is an opinion. It is an absolute fact that some humans have penises and some humans have vaginas, and that athletes who have penises tend to be bigger, faster and stronger than athletes who have vaginas.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

I love how people are all 'it gives an unfair advantage!' when talking about trans people but are all quiet when people like Michael Phelps and his mutant lungs and body frame gave him a clear advantage, and he dominated several Olympic divisions.
Anyone who thinks professional sports is about fairness and level playing fields are kidding themselves.

Guess it's okay when there's not pearl clutching over protecting women involved.

 

[Scott C.]

Why then, I ask, are these differences only ever an issue when debating the validity of trans athletes in their chosen field of sports? What makes trans women different from cis women? And here is the actual, real core of the argument, the hidden truth of the anti-trans position: Trans women, they argue, are not real women. This is the foundation of this entire argument.

And this is where the true positions in this debate reveal themselves:
Either you believe a trans woman is a woman, or you don't.

Biologically speaking trans women are not cis women. There is a difference. No matter how kind we can be, or how accepting of transgender women, it's just plain wrong to think there is not a biological difference.

There are many ways people are put into categories of athletic ability by skill level. This is done to level the playing field and make things fun and competitive for all. There are High School JV and Varsity teams. There are many levels of youth sports programs ranging from recreational, everyone makes the team, to super competitive clubs where tryouts are required. Only the elite play in the Pro's. But I assume from the beginning of time, we have understood that a male/female division makes sense, as the differences in ability are obvious. Of course there are many girls who would kick my butt in many sports, including when I was in my prime, as I was only an average male athlete growing up. But I can't imagine there are many girls who would want to eliminate the male/female differentiator in sports and go strictly by some other standards of measuring skill level. That would mean that only a very small percentage of girls would ever play on the Varsity team for most High School sports. So clearly, the male/female division has served all of us well. The best girls compete against the best girls, play at the Varsity level and have competitive experiences. I do think if a girl is good enough to compete with the boys, she should be allowed to compete with them. Since I was not gifted enough to be a starter for any sport in High School, I chose to not be on a team. I had no expectation that there would be a special team for guys who ran slow like me, and caught and threw like me. Although I did wrestle as a Senior in High School. I was new and not very good, so I competed as a Senior as Junior Varsity.

Do I believe a trans woman is a woman? The answer depends on the definition of woman. If we use the definition which has been in place as long as English has existed, the answer is no. If we re-define the term woman to be something new, then it can include trans gender women or anyone else we decide to include in the definition. Again, I'm not trying to disparage transgender people. It just seems obvous to me that some people are born male, biologically speaking. Somewhere deep in their psyche they feel like a female and wish they were a biological female. They relate to that gender and want to be referred to by that gender. Some of them get surgery to try to emulate that gender, with some success. I just don't see how anyone could not recognize the difference between such a trans woman and a cis woman.

 

[fantome profane]

They're just nuts.

I know that. But there is no reason for the government to examine them.

 

[Stevicus]

The only way to settle things is with one sport.

Roller derby!

Who's with me?!!

I guess roller derby has a moderate following, although it seems it's not as lucrative as other sports out there. That seems to be the thing about sports. If it wasn't all about the money, then there wouldn't be all this hullaballoo.

 

[Stevicus]

I know that. But there is no reason for the government to examine them.

I'll be happy to send them a picture of my backside.

 

[fantome profane]

I'll be happy to send them a picture of my backside.

They might like that.

 

[SA Huguenot]

I'm seeing so much of this offensive nonsense said about trans people, that it's time for a thread about it to set some people straight. *Makes note to make one later on*

I guess men who lose their genitals to injury or disease aren't men anymore, according to your failed logic. You can't have it both ways. Obviously your genitals can't tell you if you're a man or woman, themselves. There's all sorts of ways they can be messed up.

Nope, If you stand naked in front of a mirror and look at your gender, knowing you lost your genitals in an accident, you will still know what sex and gender you are.
It is called common sense.
And this claim that I have a failed logic because someone might have lost their genitals in an accident, is...well...
Failed logic!

 

[SA Huguenot]

We know that. It doesn't need to be brought up. We already have dysphoria, you know. I have no idea why people think trans people are somehow unaware of what our bodies are like. Like we transition for some other reason.

Yip!
Mental illness perhaps.
If you dont like your hair, change it.
But why on earth would a person think they are the opposite sex?
It can only be a mental issue.
Why would someone think they are a tree, or a bird, or a viking?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Nope, If you stand naked in front of a mirror and look at your gender, knowing you lost your genitals in an accident, you will still know what sex and gender you are.
It is called common sense.
If you stand in front of a mirror and see your genitals, and say to yourself you are the opposite sex, you are dilusional.
again, common sense.
And this claim that I have a failed logic because someone might have lost their genitals in an accident, is...well...
Failed logic!

Gender is much more complicated than genetics. The transgender people appear to have a fairly good argument. It goes against what I was brought up with too, but I am not going to tell them how they have to behave or what is right and wrong for them.

You should seriously try to start a polite conversation with some of them. They will probably be more than happy to explain their position and the evidence behind it.

 

[SA Huguenot]

Why then, I ask, are these differences only ever an issue when debating the validity of trans athletes in their chosen field of sports? What makes trans women different from cis women? And here is the actual, real core of the argument, the hidden truth of the anti-trans position: Trans women, they argue, are not real women. This is the foundation of this entire argument.

And this is where the true positions in this debate reveal themselves:
Either you believe a trans woman is a woman, or you don't.

I do not think I have any choice to BELIEVE a trans women is a true woman or not.
It is nothing to do with
1. Believing...
2. and having 2 choices!

It is a fact!
**mod edit**
You are what you are when you were born!
If you were born white, or Chinese, or purple, you are what you are and if you can not keep in touch with reality, You had better see a psycologist ASAP
To even call a transvestite a trans woman it already incorrect.

Any man changing his sex, is...
Yes.. youve guessed it...
a Male thinking he is a woman.
it is so simple

 

[SA Huguenot]

Gender is much more complicated than genetics. The transgender people appear to have a fairly good argument. It goes against what I was brought up with too, but I am not going to tell them how they have to behave or what is right and wrong for them.

You should seriously try to start a polite conversation with some of them. They will probably be more than happy to explain their position and the evidence behind it.

I will have a polite conversation with whoever, no problem.
But when someone tries to sell me a falicy, I will not be gullable.
What conversation will a sex changed man have with me?
Oh, I hated my body and knew I was a woman since I was 5.
OK, did you get help?

 

[SA Huguenot]

Oh, By the way, there are such a thing as Science, and one branch is called Biology!
And the science tells us there are only 2 Genders, which is the 2 sexes in the Mamalia.
Male and female!
And if you believe in Evolution, you would know that a male under the impression that he is a woman, will never reproduce, and vice versa with a fremale thinking she is a male.
It seems as if these leftist hatred of the family core realy got the upperhand in the West.

It is a joke!

 

[Subduction Zone]

I will have a polite conversation with whoever, no problem.
But when someone tries to sell me a falicy, I will not be gullable.
What conversation will a sex changed man have with me?
Oh, I hated my body and knew I was a woman since I was 5.
OK, did you get help?

If you are ignorant of the topic how can you tell if there is a fallacy or not?

Strawman arguments are not proper arguments.