Flirting vs. Sexual Harassment

[Rational Agnostic]

Since you are a male...if that woman did that to you, would you report her as harasser? Molester?

Of course not, I would hope that woman would do that to me. In fact, I encourage women to sexually harass me more often. I even welcome getting my crotch and a$$ unexpectedly grabbed by women. Of course, I'm only speaking for myself, and no one else.

 

[Milton Platt]

No...it is you men who have to make the first move.

That appears to against the law

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

Of course not, I would hope that woman would do that to me. In fact, I encourage women to sexually harass me more often. I even welcome getting my crotch and a$$ unexpectedly grabbed by women. Of course, I'm only speaking for myself, and no one else.

I'll have to remember that if I ever fully Transition.

 

[Estro Felino]

Of course not, I would hope that woman would do that to me. In fact, I encourage women to sexually harass me more often. I even welcome getting my crotch and a$$ unexpectedly grabbed by women. Of course, I'm only speaking for myself, and no one else.

I can only advise you to go to Europe. Slavic countries, if you re demanding.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Of course not, I would hope that woman would do that to me. In fact, I encourage women to sexually harass me more often. I even welcome getting my crotch and a$$ unexpectedly grabbed by women. Of course, I'm only speaking for myself, and no one else.

Even from women that you find physically repulsive? I know some people may have lower standards than I do, but there are quite a few women where I would draw a line.

 

[Rational Agnostic]

Even from women that you find physically repulsive? I know some people may have lower standards than I do, but there are quite a few women where I would draw a line.

Ehh perhaps not, although I would only be annoyed in those cases and would not feel threatened. Of course there are physical differences between men and women that allow for a bit of a double standard. But, I do find at least 70% of women between 18 and 50 to be at least somewhat attractive, so I would welcome it from most.

 

[Subduction Zone]

My sister is very attractive. And many guys who are not that "pretty" asked her out. She did not called them harassers or pigs.

Good for her. I think that far too often people are willing to scream "harassment" when that is not the case. But one has to be careful. That does not mean that harassment does not exist. And care must be taken in the work place where unequal positions may give one perceived authority over another. In that case the person with authority needs to be careful in asking out those below him or her. One must accept a "no" without even a hint of retaliation. But at the same time just asking is not harassment.

 

[Howard Is]

How about women just tell men if they're interested in us? It'd simplify things.

They do. It’s nonverbal.

 

[Howard Is]

No...it is you men who have to make the first move.

That appears to [be] against the law

The judicial law is only invoked if the animal law is broken. Or for some devious manipulation.

It is my observation that the population has learned to see themselves in terms of the prevailing narratives, be they political, religious or pop cultural.

There is a deeper level than that, which culture adapts around.

The terms biogram and logogram come to mind.

Our sexual signalling behaviour is coming from an involuntary level. The biogram. Evolution shaped the real ‘moves’.

The logogram - our cognitive model of ourselves - is superficial and plastic.

If the two don’t match, **** happens.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

...and ?
It only becomes a problem if it is disrespectful, abusive or insistent.
Or if someone decides to turn it into a problem where there is none.

If you can't tell whether it's wanted, then it is disrespectful. Even the first time.

Who said anything about doing it without regard as to whether it is wanted ?

You did. You said that you can't tell whether it would be welcome, but you suggest doing it anyway. This is acting without regard to whether it is wanted.

By what you've said, it seems you agree that you acknowledge that it's definitely possible that the behaviour is unwanted.

Since we are not mind readers, there is no sure way to know how someone will react the first time you approach them unless they happen to tell you how they feel about you in the first place. Can't we just act like the grown-up adults that we all are and just reject the invitations that we don't want without feeling assaulted in some manner ?

I think that "acting like the grown-up adults" means not treating one's workplace as a pick-up spot and letting the people you work with just do their jobs in peace.

 

[Koldo]

If you can't tell whether it's wanted, then it is disrespectful. Even the first time.

How did you come to this conclusion ?

You did. You said that you can't tell whether it would be welcome, but you suggest doing it anyway. This is acting without regard to whether it is wanted.

By what you've said, it seems you agree that you acknowledge that it's definitely possible that the behaviour is unwanted.

Of course it is possible.
Let me put it this way: If you say 'Good morning' to me, this might be unwanted behaviour depending on my mood. Now, are you going to keep asking everyone whether you can tell them 'Good morning' ? Not only that is unrealistic, it might be in itself an unwanted behaviour.

I think that "acting like the grown-up adults" means not treating one's workplace as a pick-up spot and letting the people you work with just do their jobs in peace.

Just grow a thicker skin. It is that simple.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

How did you come to this conclusion ?

Taking the other person's feelings into account is part of treating that person with respect.

Of course it is possible.
Let me put it this way: If you say 'Good morning' to me, this might be unwanted behaviour depending on my mood. Now, are you going to keep asking everyone whether you can tell them 'Good morning' ? Not only that is unrealistic, it might be in itself an unwanted behaviour.

But you aren't saying "good morning;" you're asking your co-worker out on a date (or making some other romantic overture). This is not part of normal, expected work interaction or job-related.

Just grow a thicker skin. It is that simple.

So other people should "grow a thicker skin" to deal with your inconsiderateness?

Do you find that this approach gets you many dates?

 

[Estro Felino]

Taking the other person's feelings into account is part of treating that person with respect.


But you aren't saying "good morning;" you're asking your co-worker out on a date (or making some other romantic overture). This is not part of normal,

If it is done politely and discretely, during a break, or not during the working hours ( for example at the gateway) it is normal and not inappropriate.

 

[Koldo]

Taking the other person's feelings into account is part of treating that person with respect.

Of course, but there is a limit. You won't cater to every imaginable whim the person might or might not have, will you ?

But you aren't saying "good morning;" you're asking your co-worker out on a date (or making some other romantic overture). This is not part of normal, expected work interaction or job-related.

It is part of normal human interaction.

So other people should "grow a thicker skin" to deal with your inconsiderateness?

You are the one labeling it inconsiderateness. Not me. If you are going to start labeling everything like that then yes, please, grow a really thick skin.

Do you find that this approach gets you many dates?

By chance, I met my spouse in my job. She wasn't a co-worker though and she was the one who asked me out. So yeah, I would say it has been working quite fine in my experience.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Of course, but there is a limit. You won't cater to every imaginable whim the person might or might not have, will you ?

Considering the possibility that your co-worker might find your romantic advances unwanted is completely within any reasonable limit.

It is part of normal human interaction.

Not all "normal human interaction" is appropriate in the workplace.

You are the one labeling it inconsiderateness. Not me.

When you fail to be considerate of how your actions will make others feel, you're being inconsiderate. You've made it clear that you think that people should be willing to make an advance to a co-worker - once - without consideration to the possibility that this would be unwanted. This is almost the dictionary definition of inconsiderateness.

If you are going to start labeling everything like that then yes, please, grow a really thick skin.

I'm not labelling everything with the term; only things that are actually inconsiderate. Just because you can't see the line between appropriate and inappropriate doesn't mean it's not there.

By chance, I met my spouse in my job. She wasn't a co-worker though and she was the one who asked me out. So yeah, I would say it has been working quite fine in my experience.

Wait... you're married?

Why are you acting all hard done by at the idea of not being allowed to pick up at work?

 

[Estro Felino]

By chance, I met my spouse in my job. She wasn't a co-worker though and she was the one who asked me out. So yeah, I would say it has been working quite fine in my experience.

You should have reported her as harasser.

Oh wait...it applies to males only. I forgot.

 

[Koldo]

Considering the possibility that your co-worker might find your romantic advances unwanted is completely within any reasonable limit.

Of course, but to assume they just won't be able to shrug it off is unreasonable.

Not all "normal human interaction" is appropriate in the workplace.

And why is the behavior we are discussing not appropriate in the workplace specifically?

When you fail to be considerate of how your actions will make others feel, you're being inconsiderate. You've made it clear that you think that people should be willing to make an advance to a co-worker - once - without consideration to the possibility that this would be unwanted. This is almost the dictionary definition of inconsiderateness.

If the advance is not in itself demeaning, why is it inconsiderate ? I have already explained to you that every single behavior might be umwanted. How do we interact with others by always assuming that whatever we do might be seen as disrespectful by them even though they have never mentioned it ? You are singling out one behaviour for no good reason.

I'm not labelling everything with the term; only things that are actually inconsiderate. Just because you can't see the line between appropriate and inappropriate doesn't mean it's not there.

And just because you see a line it doesn't mean that it is there. It might just be in your head and nowhere else.

Wait... you're married?

Why are you acting all hard done by at the idea of not being allowed to pick up at work?

Has it ever occurred to you that I might argument in favour of what I find just and right rather than strictly about what might benefit me ?