1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Flaw in Assertion of God's Existence

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Cacafire, Jul 17, 2008.

  1. Cacafire

    Cacafire Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2008
    Messages:
    162
    Ratings:
    +14
    It's not a matter of "truth"
    If you accept a principle as true in one instance, you have to accept the principle as true in all instances. The christian assertion does not do this.

    Flaw.
     
  2. Cacafire

    Cacafire Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2008
    Messages:
    162
    Ratings:
    +14
    NPC's in Diablo 2 are data structures programmed into the rom, which can be traced back through the electrical structures to the keyboard, into the real world--to the programmer.

    If they had sentience, then they would know we are playing. yes.
     
  3. Fluffy

    Fluffy A fool

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2004
    Messages:
    7,572
    Ratings:
    +1,007
    I fully agree with you, kmkemp. That is a very bad assumption to make. However, I disagree that I am the one making it. It is the theist who employs the very argument of which this thread is critical who has made that mistake. The conversation has gone like this:

    Atheist: Why have we not detected God?
    Theist: Because God is outside of the universe and so cannot be detected.
    Atheist: If the location of God is relevant to his undetectability and not my sensory capabilities then it must be that God has no effect on the universe of which he is apart from.

    Of course the theist could instead say
    Theist: Because God is beyond your sensory capability and so cannot be detected.
    But then this would be an entirely different thread.

    I agree. My intention is not to assert the truth but to clear up what I perceive to be a flaw in the other person's understanding of my position (impart better clarity) in order to see more clearly who really has the flaw. I'm repeating myself in a different way because I feel that the previous method was misunderstood.

    No. I claim only that their inability to detect us has nothing to do with our geographical location and, if it did, that would result in our inability to affect their world.
     
    #23 Fluffy, Jul 17, 2008
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2008
    • Like Like x 1
  4. Cacafire

    Cacafire Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2008
    Messages:
    162
    Ratings:
    +14
    Frubles for you, Fluffy.
     
  5. kmkemp

    kmkemp Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2007
    Messages:
    811
    Ratings:
    +29
    Hmmm, it seems that my response should take the place of the first theist response since the "because God is outside of the universe" really doesn't have much to do with why we aren't able to detect God (supposing that that is even true). What the OP should really say is "why have I not detected God?"
     
  6. Fluffy

    Fluffy A fool

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2004
    Messages:
    7,572
    Ratings:
    +1,007
    I completely agree and yet it is a very commonly deployed argument and therefore requiring of consideration.

    That is also a very interesting question. Of course many people claim to have detected God. Another question, given this fact, would be why has science not detected God?
     
  7. Willamena

    Willamena Just me
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2006
    Messages:
    39,139
    Ratings:
    +6,348
    What is a "system"?
     
  8. Cacafire

    Cacafire Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2008
    Messages:
    162
    Ratings:
    +14
    kmkemp. The Original Topic of this thread is simple:

    It does not seek to disprove god. God very well may be real. It simply states that because the christian assertion that god is outside of the universe relies upon the logical principle that what is outside a system can not be accessed from within the system, the complentary logic would have to be that god can not access the system, and would have to be impotent.

    The flow is not whether this is true or not. The flaw is that the christian maintains the logical principle in the first case as a justification for rejecting science, yet rejects the logical principle in another instance by maintaining that god has a plan for the world and can intervene via miracles due to his omnipotence.

    If you maintain that god is outside of the universe, then you must maintain that he is impotent. Otherwise, you are accepting logic in one instance, and rejecting it in another.
     
  9. Cacafire

    Cacafire Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2008
    Messages:
    162
    Ratings:
    +14
    Any group of interacting parts that necessarily must end in a limiting boundary, afterwhich there is only that which is not inside the boundary.

    It's interesting to note that there is no justification for any systems in the universe. Empirically, you can't really say that the universe actually has an outside. I doubt that is comforting to the christian, however.
     
  10. Fluffy

    Fluffy A fool

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2004
    Messages:
    7,572
    Ratings:
    +1,007
    Its probably okay to think of it as a set. Just an arbitrary collection of arbitrary things.
     
  11. Willamena

    Willamena Just me
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2006
    Messages:
    39,139
    Ratings:
    +6,348
    Then what is the system God is allegedly apart from, cannot access and cannot be accessed by? (The universe.) Then please define where the universe ends and its limiting boundary. I'll just wait here in the corner...
     
  12. Dunemeister

    Dunemeister Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2008
    Messages:
    4,583
    Ratings:
    +378
    I'm not so sure that Christians make this claim in exactly the way you present it. Christians DO affirm that God and creation are not identical. But I'm not aware of any argument that the ontological separation of God and creation entails that scientific inquiry cannot confirm or deny God's existence. That would be very odd given that we DO affirm that God acts in history and that we humans can perceive God's public activity (miracles) and personal activity (revelation). So obviously Christians believe that God's presence is detectable in some way. It's also true that Christians hold that God's existence and majesty are made manifest in creation. So again, there's a certain level on which Christians are committed to the view that creation and God, although separate, interact in meaningful and detectable ways.
     
  13. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 15, 2004
    Messages:
    36,767
    Ratings:
    +10,108
    Religion:
    Judaism
    Saying does not make it true. Repeating it does not make it true. Fabricating "scientific principles" does not make it true. And, finally, wanting it to be true does not make it true.
     
  14. Cacafire

    Cacafire Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2008
    Messages:
    162
    Ratings:
    +14

    precisely. I doubt the christian argument that god is outside of the universe even HAS any basis at all.
     
  15. kmkemp

    kmkemp Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2007
    Messages:
    811
    Ratings:
    +29
    I completely understand the OP, but I am puzzled as to why we would debate a premise that seems blatantly false, or at least not obviously true. If your premise is not true, then your questions are nonsensical. It there is an omnipotent creator, what makes you think that he could not create a place with beings that can only experience him when he wants them to, for instance?
     
  16. Cacafire

    Cacafire Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2008
    Messages:
    162
    Ratings:
    +14
    Every single christian, protestant, catholic, or mormon, that I have talked to has brought this argument into play.

    Also, I have heard a christian theologian use this argument on the radio.
     
  17. Cacafire

    Cacafire Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2008
    Messages:
    162
    Ratings:
    +14
    I never said it was true, Jayhawker. Not once. If someone accepts the above as true, then it would have to apply.

    But if somebody does not accept it to be true, then they are not arguing that god is outside of the universe, and thus god is perfectly within the bounds of science, no matter what christians want to make of it.
     
  18. Willamena

    Willamena Just me
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2006
    Messages:
    39,139
    Ratings:
    +6,348
    So you admit your OP is a strawman argument?
     
  19. UnityNow101

    UnityNow101 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2007
    Messages:
    1,373
    Ratings:
    +150
    No, I have not studied these topics, neither do I believe that they have anything to do with what I was talking about. The Universe was created out of the void, or nothingness, and to say otherwise is quite ignorant.
     
  20. Fluffy

    Fluffy A fool

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2004
    Messages:
    7,572
    Ratings:
    +1,007
    Are you familiar with NOLA? The claim is made that God is detectable but not by science very commonly. If that is the case then the logical contradiction is closer than that highlighted by this thread.
     
Loading...