• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Flag of Treason

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
The simple question the commercial asks "America or Trump" - follow the flag of treason or the flag of the United States of America.


My answer of course:


USa.gif


We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
I prefer to the remove the T.

Throw that nasty letter overboard into the Boston harbor...
 

Kangaroo Feathers

Yea, it is written in the Book of Cyril...
I actually think the Confederate Flag is less of a hate symbol than people make out. It's certainly not worth the level of angst it generates. That said, it DOES always tickle me when I see self identified American "patriots" waving it.
 

Mindmaster

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
The simple question the commercial asks "America or Trump" - follow the flag of treason or the flag of the United States of America.

Point is moot... The Confederate Flag is considered an American flag as is the Star-Spangled Banner, and the "Don't Tread On Me" flags, and a host of others via an act of Congress. Likewise, all soldiers in the civil war are just considered "American War Veterans" and all honors are recognized as were ranks, and so on. People forget how much the South and North made up... They forgave each other, so why can't we? It wasn't our war, lol.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
The simple question the commercial asks "America or Trump" - follow the flag of treason or the flag of the United States of America.

My answer of course:

[/MEDIA]


We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
I watched the first one. Why does the narrator have his voice being played at half speed? :D

Regarding your quotation from the Declaration of Independence, those words were written - with no trace of irony - at a time when slavery was widespread.

The only conclusion one can draw is that those who drafted them did not consider the slaves to be "men". So it seems rather curious to quote this passage as asserting a principle of racial equality.

"...the land of the free and the home of the slave."
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The simple question the commercial asks "America or Trump" - follow the flag of treason or the flag of the United States of America.


We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
Well that certainly hit all the emotional buttons -- practically Republican!
I like the intent, but am not entirely comfortable with all the emotional baiting.

Treason? Wasn't the US born of treason? Yet today we revere the traitors as patriots and founding fathers.
Frankly, I think the whole concept of treason is illegitimate. No-one owes allegiance to a country, especially due to an accident of birth.
I believe in principles. If I agree with a country's policies, I'll support it; if not, or if it changes it's policies, its a moral duty to oppose it.

Unconditional loyalty is dangerous.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Point is moot... The Confederate Flag is considered an American flag as is the Star-Spangled Banner, and the "Don't Tread On Me" flags, and a host of others via an act of Congress. Likewise, all soldiers in the civil war are just considered "American War Veterans" and all honors are recognized as were ranks, and so on. People forget how much the South and North made up... They forgave each other, so why can't we? It wasn't our war, lol.
The Confederate flag is a North American flag, but, historically, it was never the flag of the United States. It was a rebel flag, and symbolized an immoral economic system. I find it offensive, personally.

Forgiveness? Alas, the South can't seem to let the Confederate dream go. It's reflected in both attitudes and symbols. The North would have forgotten all about the brouhaha if Southerners hadn't clung so tenaciously to it.
 
Last edited:

exchemist

Veteran Member
Well that certainly hit all the emotional buttons -- practically Republican!
I like the intent, but am not entirely comfortable with all the emotional baiting.

Treason? Wasn't the US born of treason? Yet today we revere the traitors as patriots and founding fathers.
Frankly, I think the whole concept of treason is illegitimate. No-one owes allegiance to a country, especially due to an accident of birth.
I believe in principles. If I agree with a country's policies, I'll support it; if not, or if it changes it's policies, its a moral duty to oppose it.

Unconditional loyalty is dangerous.
Treason doth never prosper. What's the reason?
Why, if it prosper, none dare call it treason.

Sir John Harington, Elizabethan courtier.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
The simple question the commercial asks "America or Trump" - follow the flag of treason or the flag of the United States of America.


My answer of course:


USa.gif


We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

I don't think we need to choose between the two. It's not a relevant political question in this day and age. America's history is what it is, and the former Confederate States (and their flags) are very much a part of Americana.

Just like Lincoln said after Lee's surrender: I have always thought `Dixie’ one of the best tunes I have ever heard. Our adversaries over the way attempted to appropriate it, but I insisted yesterday that we fairly captured it. I presented the question to the Attorney General, and he gave it as his legal opinion that it is our lawful prize.

Since America essentially forgave the Confederacy for its treason way back when (and turned the blind eye to a century of racial hatred, Jim Crow laws, segregation, and other crimes), it's kind of late to be bringing up this argument now.
 

Mindmaster

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
The Confederate flag is a North American flag, but, historically, it was never the flag of the United States. It was a rebel flag, and symbolized an immoral economic system. I find it offensive, personally.

Forgiveness? Alas, the South can't seem to let the Confederate dream go. It's reflected in both attitudes and symbols. The North would have forgotten all about the brouhaha if Southerners hadn't clung so tenaciously to it.

The irony of the people opposed those whom have clung to the rebel flag while simultaneously never getting over the specter of slavery isn't beyond me. Neither concept holds any value to me as it was someone else's problem that was resolved two-hundred years before any of us were an apple in our daddy's eye, so to speak. But, I think in both cases it's just an unhealthy amount of ancestor worship and while I feel it's useless I also think you have the right to do it. :D
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Well that certainly hit all the emotional buttons -- practically Republican!
I like the intent, but am not entirely comfortable with all the emotional baiting.

Treason? Wasn't the US born of treason? Yet today we revere the traitors as patriots and founding fathers.
Frankly, I think the whole concept of treason is illegitimate. No-one owes allegiance to a country, especially due to an accident of birth.
I believe in principles. If I agree with a country's policies, I'll support it; if not, or if it changes it's policies, its a moral duty to oppose it.

Unconditional loyalty is dangerous.
Treason against the Brits is the good kind of treason though.
I regularly encourage @oldbadger to be treasonous.
Cast off the queen's shackles!
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
The irony of the people opposed those whom have clung to the rebel flag while simultaneously never getting over the specter of slavery isn't beyond me. Neither concept holds any value to me as it was someone else's problem that was resolved two-hundred years before any of us were an apple in our daddy's eye, so to speak. But, I think in both cases it's just an unhealthy amount of ancestor worship and while I feel it's useless I also think you have the right to do it. :D

When I was growing up, some people might have viewed the Confederate flag simply as a "flag of rebellion" at a time when the Federal government wasn't particularly popular. Regardless of how it was perceived and used during the Civil War, its meaning changed - just as the meaning of the U.S. flag itself also changed over the generations.

The time of the Confederacy was relatively short, only about four years. They seceded because they wanted to preserve slavery (while disingenuously hiding behind the mantle of "states rights"). Whether or not they committed treason is a moot point, since they were pardoned and forgiven of that crime. Part of the reason for that was practical, since they needed to reunite the country as quickly as possible, and also because both the Union and Confederacy were largely guilty of the same atrocities and crimes against humanity overall. The Union fought to end slavery (at least on paper), but apart from that, they didn't have a very stellar record on human rights.

Overall, I think that it's a good thing that we can learn to reconcile the past and come to terms with our own history. I don't think it should involve laying any guilt trips on anyone or blaming the sins of the fathers on the sons, which is often how a lot of this is presented. I also don't think that cries of "treason" at the sight of a Confederate flag is very helpful or relevant at this juncture either. Some people seem to think that doing away with the Confederate flag might be some kind of "cleansing" or washing away of our national sins, but I think we're only fooling ourselves.

I honestly don't care if people want to ban the Confederate flag. I don't know if it would hold up Constitutionally, but either way, it's not something I have any personal stake in. I have no sentimental attachment to (or hatred of) the Confederate flag or any flag. Even my own Arizona flag avatar means nothing about how I feel about the Arizona state government (which sucks big time). I like the design and I always thought it was kind of a cool flag. I can appreciate flags for their design and artistic value, but as far as a national symbol or any statement of someone's politics, they're meaningless pieces of cloth to me.
 

Mindmaster

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I honestly don't care if people want to ban the Confederate flag. I don't know if it would hold up Constitutionally, but either way, it's not something I have any personal stake in. I have no sentimental attachment to (or hatred of) the Confederate flag or any flag. Even my own Arizona flag avatar means nothing about how I feel about the Arizona state government (which sucks big time). I like the design and I always thought it was kind of a cool flag. I can appreciate flags for their design and artistic value, but as far as a national symbol or any statement of someone's politics, they're meaningless pieces of cloth to me.

I just don't think displaying a confederate flag is logically equivalent to the statement, "I like slavery." Especially, considering that I've seen many African-American folks who like to display the flag too. (Remember, there were black folks who served on the side of the Confederation.) For many, it's not a symbol of slavery as much as it is a symbol of rebellion as well.
 
Top