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"First They Came..."

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
This is more of a personal experience than a debate per se, but since I figure it has a good chance of becoming one, I put it here instead of Journals.

A few years ago, I met an Egyptian American in an atheist group online. We became fairly casual friends, catching up from time to time. She's very anti-religious and especially anti-Islamic, so she was more in favor of Trump than Hillary Clinton in 2016.

Back then, when the subject came up in one of our conversations, she told me I was wrong to prioritize other countries over the U.S. as someone aiming for immigration. As she exactly put it, "I know Mexicans and Cubans who voted for Trump. Nothing has changed during his presidency."

Fast-forward to yesterday, she messages me to catch up, as we mutually do on occasion. I asked her how she was doing, and she said she was "stressed and exhausted" and then talked about how much she disliked the GOP and the current SCOTUS. She had to move from California to a red state for the lower costs of living, so she's now in a state that is set to ban abortion.

She feels she's unable to get into a relationship because, as her family are conservative Muslims, even a 1% chance of unwanted pregnancy despite using protection and contraceptives could be disastrous for her--hence her eventual resentment of the GOP and their SCOTUS picks.

I merely said I was sorry she was going through that and expressed support, but I was also reminded of the "First They Came" poem.

This is what can happen when someone supports oppressors merely because they dislike the targets of oppression. They may well end up being a target themselves.
 

Secret Chief

nirvana is samsara
This is more of a personal experience than a debate per se, but since I figure it has a good chance of becoming one, I put it here instead of Journals.

A few years ago, I met an Egyptian American in an atheist group online. We became fairly casual friends, catching up from time to time. She's very anti-religious and especially anti-Islamic, so she was more in favor of Trump than Hillary Clinton in 2016.

Back then, when the subject came up in one of our conversations, she told me I was wrong to prioritize other countries over the U.S. as someone aiming for immigration. As she exactly put it, "I know Mexicans and Cubans who voted for Trump. Nothing has changed during his presidency."

Fast-forward to yesterday, she messages me to catch up, as we mutually do on occasion. I asked her how she was doing, and she said she was "stressed and exhausted" and then talked about how much she disliked the GOP and the current SCOTUS. She had to move from California to a red state for the lower costs of living, so she's now in a state that is set to ban abortion.

She feels she's unable to get into a relationship because, as her family are conservative Muslims, even a 1% chance of unwanted pregnancy despite using protection and contraceptives could be disastrous for her--hence her eventual resentment of the GOP and their SCOTUS picks.

I merely said I was sorry she was going through that and expressed support, but I was also reminded of the "First They Came" poem.

This is what can happen when someone supports oppressors merely because they dislike the targets of oppression. They may well end up being a target themselves.
Reminds me of an article I just read about various business people in the UK that publicly enthused about leaving the EU at the time of the referendum, dismissing concerns as part of "Project Fear." Fast forward to now and guess what - their businesses are on their knees and they regret voting to leave the EU. Naturally, I'm especially upset for those in the fishing industry...:rolleyes:
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
The world is moving toward fascism. Look at the rise of far right parties around the world: France, the US, Hungary, Turkey...

I think such things just tend to go in cycles. While there's a far-right threat in the places you listed, many other countries have moderate or liberal governments (e.g., Finland, New Zealand, and Germany). Even in France, a strong majority of voters snubbed Le Pen twice in a row.
 

Wandering Monk

Well-Known Member
I think such things just tend to go in cycles. While there's a far-right threat in the places you listed, many other countries have moderate or liberal governments (e.g., Finland, New Zealand, and Germany). Even in France, a strong majority of voters snubbed Le Pen twice in a row.

LePen gained ground against Macron last election compared to previous.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Some tangents....
I don't fault SCOTUS for finding Roe v Wade unconstitutional.
It was a weak decision IMO. But it appears that Trump's justices
were selected for anti-abortion views. It appears that they lied
about neutrality, objectivity, & stare decisis in order to pack the
court with the specific goal of voiding abortion rights.

This points to the usefulness of having decisions depend less
upon the effects of a small group making such big decisions.
One President can steer the country for several decades if
they're lucky enuf to stumble upon the opportunity to name
more than 1 justice. Having more justices would lessen the
anomalous power we saw (& still see) Trump enjoy.

Religion...
Every justice is either Protestant, Jewish, or Catholic. The
latter is especially dominant....6 of'm. Religion of a candidate
is made known during confirmation, so it appears to be made
a requirement.
It seems hard to avoid a theocracy when one religion has the
ability to rule over all others. Perhaps we need explicit
representation on the court based upon the general population?
Sure, it's a bad idea...but not as bad as Presidents & Congress
requiring that all justices be Catholic or perhaps some other
Judeo Christian variant.
 

Sand Dancer

Crazy Cat Lady
This is more of a personal experience than a debate per se, but since I figure it has a good chance of becoming one, I put it here instead of Journals.

A few years ago, I met an Egyptian American in an atheist group online. We became fairly casual friends, catching up from time to time. She's very anti-religious and especially anti-Islamic, so she was more in favor of Trump than Hillary Clinton in 2016.

Back then, when the subject came up in one of our conversations, she told me I was wrong to prioritize other countries over the U.S. as someone aiming for immigration. As she exactly put it, "I know Mexicans and Cubans who voted for Trump. Nothing has changed during his presidency."

Fast-forward to yesterday, she messages me to catch up, as we mutually do on occasion. I asked her how she was doing, and she said she was "stressed and exhausted" and then talked about how much she disliked the GOP and the current SCOTUS. She had to move from California to a red state for the lower costs of living, so she's now in a state that is set to ban abortion.

She feels she's unable to get into a relationship because, as her family are conservative Muslims, even a 1% chance of unwanted pregnancy despite using protection and contraceptives could be disastrous for her--hence her eventual resentment of the GOP and their SCOTUS picks.

I merely said I was sorry she was going through that and expressed support, but I was also reminded of the "First They Came" poem.

This is what can happen when someone supports oppressors merely because they dislike the targets of oppression. They may well end up being a target themselves.

I wonder if younger women will be "lesbian until marriage," kind of like they were "lesbian until graduation" in college.
 
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