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Featured First cause

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Unveiled Artist, Apr 16, 2020.

  1. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Love is patient. Love is kind.

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    If all things were, are, and will be "created" into being by cause and effect, why must there be a first cause?
     
  2. Mestemia

    Mestemia Advocatus Diaboli
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    Simply because without a first cause, there can be no "one and only all everything God" to give credit to.
     
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  3. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Love is patient. Love is kind.

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    Why would you need a one and only all everything god?

    Since everything is cause and affect, you can choose to attribute everything to the process rather than the origin.
     
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  4. Polymath257

    Polymath257 Think & Care
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    In fact, if *all* things must be caused by something else, either there is 'cyclic causality' or there is an infinite regress of causes.

    A 'first' cause would be something that is NOT caused, violating the hypothesis.
     
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  5. Mestemia

    Mestemia Advocatus Diaboli
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    I don't.
    But many many a Christian and many many a Muslim certainly do.

    Unless you have to have an all everything god in order to keep from being a bad evil person.


    Edited to add:
    The only time I ever hear the "First Cause" it is from a monotheist blowing a big gaping hole in their own "proof of God" argument.
    Essentially, they are claiming God is an exception to their claim that something has to come from something.
     
    #5 Mestemia, Apr 16, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2020
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  6. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Love is patient. Love is kind.

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    Which can't be possible without breaking the laws of nature (whichever word is appropriate to the context)?
     
  7. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    That is why, the universe is eternal with respect to time, and space. If there was a first cause, it would have had a starting point. But since there is no starting point then it is eternal in the past.
     
  8. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
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    A cause is an effect and an effect is a cause. It is simply a matter of how you order things.

    The idea of a "First Cause" I don't see as something that is supportable.

    I think it would be easier to argue that there must not be a first cause. Perhaps even go so far as saying a first cause is not logical.
     
  9. Shad

    Shad Veteran Member

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    To avoid the impractical position of an infinite chain of causes. For every cause (a) we find we would have to assume there is cause of (a) called (b) itself which in turn has a cause called (c) /repeat forever. We would have to assume there is a chain of contingent causes going back forever based only on an assumption that the model of infinite chains is true.
     
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  10. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Love is patient. Love is kind.

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    Christianity aside. In general. A lot of people put emphasis on the origin. Say where we came from to carry the legacy. The reverence of one's ancestors. Others put more emphasis on the process. The view of the "present moment" or living life as it comes.

    What's the significance of the first cause when everything is in the process of cause and affect (change, formation, etc)?
     
  11. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Love is patient. Love is kind.

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    Nice.

    Do you believe in a first cause?
     
  12. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Love is patient. Love is kind.

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    Is there something wrong with believing in infinite chain of causes?

    Is it confusing for people? Too mysterious?
     
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  13. Mestemia

    Mestemia Advocatus Diaboli
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    As I said in the edit:

    The only time I ever hear the "First Cause" it is from a monotheist blowing a big gaping hole in their own "proof of God" argument.
    Essentially, they are claiming God is an exception to their claim that something has to come from something.​

    Since I have no familiarity with the term, idea, etc. outside of that, I will have to contemplate your question
     
  14. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Love is patient. Love is kind.

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    I haven't really thought of it myself. I never really felt there was a first cause and never needed one. Something to think about nonetheless.
     
  15. Mestemia

    Mestemia Advocatus Diaboli
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    Personally, I do not really care one way or the other.
    If the truth of it were to be revealed, it would not change my life outside what others do with the information that directly involves me.

    That being said, I have no reason to believe there is a "first cause".
    Of course, at this point, I can not discount that I am prejudiced about it do to my only ever hearing about it in failed attempts to "prove god".
     
  16. Shad

    Shad Veteran Member

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    Yes as there is no true beginning of everything There is no starting point of existence at all.

    It is impractical and an assertion.
     
    #16 Shad, Apr 16, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2020
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  17. Mestemia

    Mestemia Advocatus Diaboli
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    how exactly is that a bad thing?

    How is it any different from your above quoted part?
     
  18. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

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    IMHO, first cause is a dicey thing, very 'Quantum like'. Sometimes it is, sometimes not. Our perspective is existence, we do not know non-existence.
    Polymath says in another topic:
    "Third, by considering the universe throughout *both* space and time, the notion of causality is eliminated: causes require time. So the notion of a cause only makes sense *within the universe*."
     
    #18 Aupmanyav, Apr 16, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2020
  19. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    I am not aware of this knowledge. So, has scientists agreed that the universe is eternal, or is that rather not an obsolete theory, with no supporting evidence?
    If so, and the universe did have a starting point, would it not require a cause, and if it does, then would there not be a first cause, which would / could be that starting point - requiring no cause, since it would be eternal?
     
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  20. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    No, not in the absolute sense.
     
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